Head on Collision, Part ll

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Tufarnor » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00


     Sorry, I accidently sent off the story before I was through, so this is
Part II.

     I know that falling off is not the answer, so I later asked the guy what
is the rule about this.  I thought I had read something about left hand forward
has right of way, or maybe it is like boating in a channel.  Anyway when I
asked him he said that there was no rule, and "don't worry, I won't hit you".
     This incident has made me a little gun shy about trying to sail around
others until I know what to do.  Can one of you guys help?  Thanks     Cindy

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Paul Scrutto » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I thought that it was 'right' hand forward has 'right' of way.

Paul

Quote:

>      Sorry, I accidently sent off the story before I was through, so this is
> Part II.

>      I know that falling off is not the answer, so I later asked the guy what
> is the rule about this.  I thought I had read something about left hand forward
> has right of way, or maybe it is like boating in a channel.  Anyway when I
> asked him he said that there was no rule, and "don't worry, I won't hit you".
>      This incident has made me a little gun shy about trying to sail around
> others until I know what to do.  Can one of you guys help?  Thanks     Cindy


 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by conte.. » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I have found that sailing in ridiculously crowded spots (ie Event Site
in HR or the Marina over labor day) that it SHOULD be the "BETTER"
sailor that YIELDS the right of way as they have the CONTROL over their
speed and direction and are not strugling to stay planning etc.  This
rule is ambiguous I know - but sailors need to take safety and
responsibility seriously.  Often bearing away allows racer types to
point up past you, but if you are still UNCOMFORTABLE in a crowd, then
just like surfing move >>>>> away from the pack upwind/downwind to get
some breathing room and/or chase the offender so you are not coming head
on.

Happy Sailing.

MC

Quote:
>snip
>      I know that falling off is not the answer, so I later asked the
guy what
> is the rule about this.  I thought I had read something about left
hand forward
> has right of way, or maybe it is like boating in a channel.  Anyway
when I
> asked him he said that there was no rule, and "don't worry, I won't
hit you".
>      This incident has made me a little gun shy about trying to sail
around
> others until I know what to do.  Can one of you guys help?  Thanks
Cindy

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Johnny B. Goo » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

See all the confusion? Left hand / right hand...

 Best is not to trust the other sailor knowledge about it and sail like the
guy coming at you doesn't know Jack Shit.

Johnny B.Good


Quote:
> I thought that it was 'right' hand forward has 'right' of way.

> Paul


> >      Sorry, I accidently sent off the story before I was through, so
this is
> > Part II.

> >      I know that falling off is not the answer, so I later asked the guy
what
> > is the rule about this.  I thought I had read something about left hand
forward
> > has right of way, or maybe it is like boating in a channel.  Anyway when
I
> > asked him he said that there was no rule, and "don't worry, I won't hit
you".
> >      This incident has made me a little gun shy about trying to sail
around
> > others until I know what to do.  Can one of you guys help?  Thanks
Cindy

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Roger Nightingal » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Cindy -

Sounds like this guy was being an ***.

The rule is that starboard tack has right of way - so when sailing
with the right hand forward, you have rights, and the other sailor
should yield. I believe that this is maritime law, and in the event of
a collision, the port tack sailor is liable. But don't count on all
windsurfers knowing this (exhibit A is the guy in question). If people
in your area abide by these rules, its important that the starboard
tack sailor be predictable - i.e. let the port tack sailor make the
avoidance maneuver - you can get into trouble when the starboard
sailor tries the same avoidance maneuver as the yielding sailor.

If you are surf sailing the etiquette is different (but I don't think
the law is).

You might also tell him that you're not comfortable with his strafing
and he ought to back off.

Roger

Quote:

>      Sorry, I accidently sent off the story before I was through, so this is
> Part II.

>      I know that falling off is not the answer, so I later asked the guy what
> is the rule about this.  I thought I had read something about left hand forward
> has right of way, or maybe it is like boating in a channel.  Anyway when I
> asked him he said that there was no rule, and "don't worry, I won't hit you".
>      This incident has made me a little gun shy about trying to sail around
> others until I know what to do.  Can one of you guys help?  Thanks     Cindy

--
Roger Nightingale
Duke University
Department of Biomedical Engineering
 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Steven Sla » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> The rule is that starboard tack has right of way - so when sailing
> with the right hand forward, you have rights, and the other sailor
> should yield. I believe that this is maritime law, and in the event of
> a collision, the port tack sailor is liable. But don't count on all
> windsurfers knowing this (exhibit A is the guy in question).

I have gotten a few dirty looks from people who obviously had never heard
of the rule and assumed I would change course.

In my mind, its better to be careful and change course *once* if the other
party looks like they aren't making any corrections. Its not much
consolation to be right and injured/dead !

I've even had people shout at me to get out of their way when they were
overtaking me in Margarita even though I was maintaining a steady course
so following the rules is great until you meet someone who doesn't
understand them, or worse yet, doesn't care!

Steve.
--
 "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is
that it has never tried to contact us" (Bill Watterson)                    

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Loco4wi » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

The guy was an ***. However, all sailors should know and abide by right of
way rules if they intend to sail crowded spots. If a sailor can't control his
position, he should not sail in crowded areas with fast moving experienced
sailors.

The starboard tack rule is the most important. Others to consider are:

1) when two sailors are on the same tack, upwind sailor yields to downwind
sailor.

2) when one sailor is overtaking another, the one overtaking must change course
and go above or below the other one.

3) motor vessels yield to sailboats, including windsurfers, with the exception
that large vessels in shipping lines have the right of way (such as barges in
the gorge and tankers in sf bay). Of course, it is safer to give up this right
since you're the one who will get nailed in a collision with a motor vessel.

4) In the surf the first guy on a wave, even if it is just a swell and still
not close to breaking, has the right. Sailors coming in should yield to those
going out.

However, in general it's better when you see someone coming from a distance to
alter course a little so right of way is not an issue. With the exception of
races, changing course doesn't matter. We're all just out for fun.

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by BDH » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Right hand forward is on starboard tack and in most all
occasions, starboard tack has the right away.  The exception is
in wavesailing.  But if the other guy didn't know this it
doesn't really matter.  If your equipement is old maybe chicken
would be fun.

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by charlesive » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

There is one other important rule to add to those below -- When you have
right of way, do not change course so as to create uncertainty in the sailor
who must avoid you (unless racing and you want to create a foul, etc.)  This
is important.  If you start changing course so that the avoidable collision
could not be avoided, you lose the high ground under the rules.

Now -- the majority have no idea of the rules.  So I have found the
following works fairly well...  Early on make any course change (if you have
right of way) so the way to avoid you is clear, then hold that course.  Then
if you have time and danger is still possible, learn to shout "starboard" or
"leeward", etc., even, "right of way" or "give way" -- I think this is
important because people learn eventually there are rules, and many times I
have been asked to explain so they know what to do.

Finally the cardinal rule is to avoid collision if possible --*** your
hat on the rules is fine in a protest or maybe even a court of law, but
foremost is the rule of the sea that dictates to avoid danger and to rend
aid if something unfortunate does happen.

As the more capable sailor, you likely carry a responsibility to minimize
any danger -- so teach, stay out of beginners way, and go sail away from the
pack.  Now, if we are racing, well, everyone hates a sea lawyer who attempts
to create rule infractions to their advantage -- but if you watch the
America's Cup you will see, particularly at the start, a rules dance where
both boats are hoping to play chicken within the rules -- great fun when
done by experts.

CHI

p.s.  In your case, it sounds like a gadfly trying to get the attention of a
female -- in such cases, I cannot suggest much help.  Its never happened to
me, an overweight, 56 year old, balding guy.  If Cindy Crawford kept dive
bombing me, I'm not sure if I would give her a stern lecture on the rules or
not -- (no flame please -- its a joke)


Quote:
> The guy was an ***. However, all sailors should know and abide by
right of
> way rules if they intend to sail crowded spots. If a sailor can't control
his
> position, he should not sail in crowded areas with fast moving experienced
> sailors.

> The starboard tack rule is the most important. Others to consider are:

> 1) when two sailors are on the same tack, upwind sailor yields to downwind
> sailor.

> 2) when one sailor is overtaking another, the one overtaking must change
course
> and go above or below the other one.

> 3) motor vessels yield to sailboats, including windsurfers, with the
exception
> that large vessels in shipping lines have the right of way (such as barges
in
> the gorge and tankers in sf bay). Of course, it is safer to give up this
right
> since you're the one who will get nailed in a collision with a motor
vessel.

> 4) In the surf the first guy on a wave, even if it is just a swell and
still
> not close to breaking, has the right. Sailors coming in should yield to
those
> going out.

> However, in general it's better when you see someone coming from a
distance to
> alter course a little so right of way is not an issue. With the exception
of
> races, changing course doesn't matter. We're all just out for fun.

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Rainer Leuschk » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> The rule is that starboard tack has right of way - so when sailing
> with the right hand forward, you have rights, and the other sailor
> should yield.

Ok. That's what we'd like the rules to be.

Quote:
> I believe that this is maritime law, and in the event of
> a collision, the port tack sailor is liable.

Both are because vessels approaching at 25 mph to within striking distance
of their masts is in itself breaking the colregs (aka maritime law). Even
if you oversee this point you'll find that still both are at fault
to some degree. If port doesn't change course from a possible collision
course the responsibility shifts to starboard to do something.
Since colregs don't apply and right of way rules for windsurfing aren't a
law anywhere (AFAIK) each participant in a collision would probably be
found responsible for their own damage.

Quote:
> But don't count on all
> windsurfers knowing this (exhibit A is the guy in question).

I have more of a problem with windsurfers that think that while on
starboard they can do whatever they want and the port tacker better stay
out of their way. In the gorge people bounce through chop changing
direction by +-10 deg. Then they get upset if I can't decide whether I
need to go above or below.

Quote:
> If people
> in your area abide by these rules, its important that the starboard
> tack sailor be predictable - i.e. let the port tack sailor make the
> avoidance maneuver - you can get into trouble when the starboard
> sailor tries the same avoidance maneuver as the yielding sailor.

Hear, hear.

R!

--        ,--+___.                                            oOOOOOOo
        ,/   |    \                                            /  /
  ___  /     |     \.       Rainer Leuschke                   /  /
   __ /      |       \.     phone: (w) 206-685-0900          /  /      
 __  /   14  |\        \           (h) 206-547-8927         /  /      
     |   ~~  | \        \                                  /  /      
     |       |  \        \                                /  /      
     |       |   \        \   Weight is only of use      /  /    
     |       |    \        |  in steamrollers.           o /          
     +--o o--|     \       |             - Uffa Fox     'U~    
    .|_[]{ }_|------+======'                             )\
   M|_______________|                                   -;---'
   U       H
           U

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Peter Som » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>3) motor vessels yield to sailboats, including windsurfers, with the exception
>that large vessels in shipping lines have the right of way (such as barges in
>the gorge and tankers in sf bay). Of course, it is safer to give up this right
>since you're the one who will get nailed in a collision with a motor vessel.

Conflicting with the above rule is
3) The more manouverable vessel must give way to the less manouverable
vessel.
- And as our windsurfing instructor pointed out: "don't expect the
supertanker to give you way on the open seas." -
Peter
_____________________________________________________________________
Dr.Peter I Somlo FIEEE | M1: "Every coin has 3 sides - at least"

tel/fax: 61-2-9451-2478|      ICQ: 1032408
Mobile(AU):041-926-3168| <http://www.zeta.org.au/~somlo/default.htm>
 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Loco4wi » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>There is one other important rule to add to those below -- When you have
>right of way, do not change course so as to create uncertainty in the sailor
>who must avoid you (unless racing and you want to create a foul, etc.)  This
>is important.  If you start changing course so that the avoidable collision
>could not be avoided, you lose the high ground under the rules.

you are so right!! several years ago I was in a collision when I was on port,
beared off to avoid a guy on starboard, while he also beared off. Then I headed
back up, and he did the same. My board hit his mast base and split the nose
open. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

As you say, just because you're on starboard doesn't mean you can throw loops
right in front of the port guy

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Tom B » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

AMEN BROTHER!

Unfortunately I have observed some sail god wannabees who expected the
seas to part for them because they were so cool. Guess I didn't realize
who they were. Maybe they need big signs on their sails saying get out
of my way "I RULE".

Seriously though, it would be nice to see sailors trying to "out yield"
the other.

Quote:

> it SHOULD be the "BETTER"
> sailor that YIELDS the right of way as they have the CONTROL over their
> speed and direction and are not strugling to stay planning etc.

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Rainer Leuschk » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> Conflicting with the above rule is
> 3) The more manouverable vessel must give way to the less manouverable
> vessel.

...and where did you get this "rule" from? Did you just make that up?
The manouverability of a vessel is the IDEA behind SOME of the colregs. It
is not a rule in any rule book I know of.
R!

--        ,--+___.                                            oOOOOOOo
        ,/   |    \                                            /  /
  ___  /     |     \.       Rainer Leuschke                   /  /
   __ /      |       \.     phone: (w) 206-685-0900          /  /      
 __  /   14  |\        \           (h) 206-547-8927         /  /      
     |   ~~  | \        \                                  /  /      
     |       |  \        \                                /  /      
     |       |   \        \   Weight is only of use      /  /    
     |       |    \        |  in steamrollers.           o /          
     +--o o--|     \       |             - Uffa Fox     'U~    
    .|_[]{ }_|------+======'                             )\
   M|_______________|                                   -;---'
   U       H
           U

 
 
 

Head on Collision, Part ll

Post by Rainer Leuschk » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> There is one other important rule to add to those below -- When you have
> right of way, do not change course so as to create uncertainty in the sailor
> who must avoid you (unless racing and you want to create a foul, etc.)

As for racing, this is only legal in match racing and is called hunting.
Not allowed in fleet racing.

R!

--        ,--+___.                                            oOOOOOOo
        ,/   |    \                                            /  /
  ___  /     |     \.       Rainer Leuschke                   /  /
   __ /      |       \.     phone: (w) 206-685-0900          /  /      
 __  /   14  |\        \           (h) 206-547-8927         /  /      
     |   ~~  | \        \                                  /  /      
     |       |  \        \                                /  /      
     |       |   \        \   Weight is only of use      /  /    
     |       |    \        |  in steamrollers.           o /          
     +--o o--|     \       |             - Uffa Fox     'U~    
    .|_[]{ }_|------+======'                             )\
   M|_______________|                                   -;---'
   U       H
           U