Speed vs Slalom foils?

Speed vs Slalom foils?

Post by Harald Bran » Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:29:27


   I am somewhat puzzled by the various lines of sails that are made.  It
is generally claimed that the modern slalom sails with loose leech are
good at spilling wind in gusts, and therefore (according to my
interpretation) capable of being good in a fairly large wind range.
Handling is also claimed to be easier due to this.  Slalom sails can thus be
said to ''take all wind you can hold''. Likewise, Race sails have the same
claims but are usually bigger, and for Gaastra, size seems to be the only
difference between Slalom and Race, or are there any other differences?

   Speed sails, on the other hand, are claimed to be extremely stable in
foil shape. Leech is not so loose and they don't seeem to twist as much as a slalom sail. Also, the booms are usually shorter than on Slalom.  According
to ART, their speed sails are not as easy to handle as their slalom sails.
 Speed sails can thus be said to ''take all wind there is''.

   However, I have just borrowed for several hours a Gaastra '90 speed
foil 5.7m2 (4 cambers, 8 battens no monofilm) and used it for both
underpowered and severely overpowered conditions (from 4 to about 15 m/s
in the gusts). I have never before felt a sail that was so totally free of
foil deformation and absence of overpower feelings, except in the very
worst gusts where it started to push me down in that typical overpowered
way, whereas a normal sail would just slam me down ruthlessly.  What
limited control was the board rather than the sail.

   Now the questions: Why are slalom sails claimed to be better in gust
handling?  Why are slalom sails claimed to be better in manouver handling?
To me, the speed foil seemed to be superior in its absence of overpower
feeling, and the short boom (1.75 m) seems to make it rather OK for
handling - the part the sail that is under the boom seems to be fairly the
same for speed and slalom sails, as opposed to wave sails that are cut
very high.

   My suspicion is that perhaps, the speed foil, at least Gaastra '90,
simply is a better more accurately designed and manufactured sail. I plan
to buy one. What is your opinion?  Perhaps Slalom designs are more 'trendy' and vogue sensitive. Perhaps loose leech is out of vogue tomorrow and slalom sails of tomorrow start look like yesterdays speed sails?

   To complicate things even more: Gaastra have a speed/slalom sail? I
simply do not understand that combination, and what their catalog say
about it is to me  totally unintelligable/contradictory. Especiallly the
'91 design of it looks very strange in the catalog - it doesn't even have
internal cambers and is still claimed to be speed/slalom??

   Best Regards/ Harald

Phone: +46 8 727 39 55  Fax: +46 8 749 05 94
Ellemtel Utvecklings AB
Box 1505
S-125 25 Alvsjo
Sweden

 
 
 

Speed vs Slalom foils?

Post by Colas Nahab » Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:43:15

I may be wrong, but I thought that speed sails didn't exist anymore (there is
none in the north line for example).

besides I cannot see how a sail could be faster than modern (you tried a 90
gaastra, this is not a modern design) slalom sails.

go test ride a neil pryde V8 steet racer... I doubt that any production sail
will propell you faster than this "slalom" sail...

--

Pho:(33) 93.65.77.70(.66 Fax), INRIA, B.P.93 - 06902 Sophia Antipolis, FRANCE.

 
 
 

Speed vs Slalom foils?

Post by Harald Bran » Sat, 01 Aug 1992 02:13:19


writes:

Quote:
> besides I cannot see how a sail could be faster than modern (you tried a
90
> gaastra, this is not a modern design) slalom sails.

> go test ride a neil pryde V8 steet racer... I doubt that any production
sail
> will propell you faster than this "slalom" sail...

Sounds interesting.  However, price is also a factor. Last years sails can
usually be bought for 2/3 or sometimes half the original price.
     Also, I have heard that some competition sailors prefer the older '91
and '90 Neil Prides over their '92, because of the deeper foils (bellys).  
Others have said that the latest vintage is not always the best, but
different lines of different makers may vary a lot - they experiment
wildly; good designs are kept if they are cheep to produce. So, since
price is a factor... I would like last years (or even next to last years)
if it was a hit (provided it really is a hit). Lastly, non-monofilm is a
plus - more durable and lasts longer. Today, however, monofilm seems
difficult to avoid, not surprisingly - it's a much cheeper material than a
web plus mylar, thereby loved by the manufacturers (especially if one
sooner needs to buy a new one :-))

(Little correction: I said the '90 Gaastra had 8 battens. That's wrong, it has 7 battens of which 4 are cambers.)

   Best Regards, Harald

Phone: +46 8 727 39 55  Fax: +46 8 749 05 94
Ellemtel Utvecklings AB
Box 1505
S-125 25 Alvsjo
Sweden

 
 
 

Speed vs Slalom foils?

Post by Juri Munk » Sun, 02 Aug 1992 03:53:37

Quote:

>I may be wrong, but I thought that speed sails didn't exist anymore (there is
>none in the north line for example).

They had the "Mega" last year and I'm under the impression that it still
might exist, but that it is still available by special order only.

You are right when you say that race/slalom sails have replaced speed sails.
It's still possible that speed sails will some day come back, when we learn
more about making faster sails.

Quote:
>besides I cannot see how a sail could be faster than modern (you tried a 90
>gaastra, this is not a modern design) slalom sails.

1990 Gaastras were already fairly modern. At least the racefoils had a loose
leach and relatively flat top.

Quote:
>go test ride a neil pryde V8 steet racer... I doubt that any production sail
>will propell you faster than this "slalom" sail...

That's funny...I also recommended a V8 to Harald even before I saw his posting
or yours. Pryde says that the WC Slalom is faster, but it would seem to me
that the average slalom pilot will make the V8 go faster than a WCS.

BTW: 1993 Neil Prydes seem to be available now in small quantities. The
World Cup Slalom has only minor changes as far as I could see. Can anyone
guess what the next radical new trend in sail design will be?

--
  Juri Munkki                                          Windsurf: fast sailing

 
 
 

Speed vs Slalom foils?

Post by Kirk Lindstr » Mon, 03 Aug 1992 02:43:29

Quote:
>besides I cannot see how a sail could be faster than modern (you tried a 90
>gaastra, this is not a modern design) slalom sails.

>go test ride a neil pryde V8 steet racer... I doubt that any production sail
>will propell you faster than this "slalom" sail...
>--

>----------

From what I've read, the NP V8 is NOT a fast sail.  Rather it has a very
large draft for good low end speed.  I just read that Rushwind is now using
a soft mast for large race sails limited to no larger than 7.5 for "Limited
Class Racing" so it is easy to pump.  They could be following Sailworks here
as their masts are softer than NP, Waddel, Windwing or North race sails.
I think the V8 is for the recreational sailor (read sails less than
twice a week) who doesn't want to invest in a large quiver.

I've been told that the fastest PRODUCTION sails are now Sailworks Race
and NP Race.  I also see alot of races won on Windwing Race, Waddel Race and
North's race sail (Infinity?).  They feature less draft for better
upwind ability and tubular battens for stable drag when sailing
overpowered.

I've sailed, owned or seen these older sail designs work nearly as well
as the '91 or newer race sails when fitted with custom RBS tube battens:

 1989 Rushwind GS LE  (I've modified 3:  4.5, 5.1 and 6.4 with good results
      Less topend than my '91 SW Race, but more low end)
 1990 Windwing

Kirk (wish my mono SW's were as durable as my RW GS LE's) out

 
 
 

Speed vs Slalom foils?

Post by Colas Nahab » Tue, 04 Aug 1992 22:26:13


|> Sounds interesting.  However, price is also a factor. Last years sails can
|> usually be bought for 2/3 or sometimes half the original price.

yes, of course. there you must look carefully, as often sail design evoltion
goes through steps, sometimes sails are exactly the same as the past years,
sometime not.

An example I know: for north, the prismas went to mdern shape with the 91
model, and the 92 one is nearly identical, whereas the 91 infinity was still
the old shape, but the 92 infinity adopted the new cut.

So if you want a prima a 91 model is Ok, but don't buy a 90!
for an infinity, don't buy a 91 model, wait till the 92 ones are discounted.

The same goes for other brands, be careful to get a new "floppy/spongy/spingy"
or whatevcer they call it, leech...

Myself I am going to change my wave sail quiver, and I am going to get a
handlul of Zetas, I am waiting for the end of august for the usual 30%
discounts on 92 models... and I am waiting to see if 93 mistral extasy are
going to have some kind of powerbox, otherwise I'll take a 92 extasy...

Quote:

> From what I've read, the NP V8 is NOT a fast sail.  Rather it has a very
> large draft for good low end speed.  I just read that Rushwind is now using

Well, NP advertises it as a not a fast sail, but in tests, it seems to be able
to handles gusts beautifullt and can be dowloaded enough to meke it flat
enough, and belive me, they are quite flat wrt prismas or other race sails!

I remeber a marginal day, where we were about 20 sailors on the beach looking
at the only 3 sailors with NP-V8s... there were blasting, fully planing ,wheras
a bunch of people with 92 "big bellied" prisma were marginally planing.
If you knwo how to pump, seems that you don't need deep drafts anymore!

PS: I dont own V8, only wave sail + an used prisma for those marginal days...

--

Pho:(33) 93.65.77.70(.66 Fax), INRIA, B.P.93 - 06902 Sophia Antipolis, FRANCE.

 
 
 

Speed vs Slalom foils?

Post by Juri Munk » Wed, 05 Aug 1992 03:51:28

Quote:

>An example I know: for north, the prismas went to mdern shape with the 91
>model, and the 92 one is nearly identical, whereas the 91 infinity was still
>the old shape, but the 92 infinity adopted the new cut.

As someone who had 5 Infinitys (3 1989 models, 1 1990 and 1 1991), I can
tell you that you are wrong.

They changed all the sail cuts in 1991 and the Infinity was totally changed.
it is very close to the Prisma in high end handling. The reason the redesigned
the 1992 Infinity is that the 1991 model was too hard to rig. It requires
enormous amounts of downhaul to get it right (the same amount as the Prisma).

Quote:
>So if you want a prima a 91 model is Ok, but don't buy a 90!
>for an infinity, don't buy a 91 model, wait till the 92 ones are discounted.

Again, the 1991 Infinity is almost as good as 1991 Prisma. I head that
the 1993 models will be out during this month and that the main difference
is that the boom length has again increased. The 1991 Prismas had longer
booms than the 1992 ones, so I guess they are either closer to the original
cut or they have changed something else too.

Quote:

>> From what I've read, the NP V8 is NOT a fast sail.  Rather it has a very
>> large draft for good low end speed.  I just read that Rushwind is now using

>Well, NP advertises it as a not a fast sail, but in tests, it seems to be able
>to handles gusts beautifullt and can be dowloaded enough to meke it flat
>enough, and belive me, they are quite flat wrt prismas or other race sails!

My 6.5 Gamma (same as a Prisma, but no monofilm) is extremely full and
has excellent low end power. I use a North Dynamic Speed aluminum mast
and it seems that the base doesn't flex at all and the top flexes quite
a lot. Rigging the same sail with a softer base makes it a lot flatter.

I rig the 5.5 Gamma with a customized North Heavy Duty wave mast. The
changes make the mast stiffer and closer to constant curve and the
result is that the sail is extremely flat. It's about as flat as the
current Neil Pryde world cup slaloms and flatter than last year's
Gaastra Slalomfoil Pros. My 5.5 has an excellent high end and fairly
good low end (I have to pump hard in marginal conditions to get up to
efficient speed).

A stiff mast with a hard top should have the same effect on the V8. The
mast you use makes a really big difference.

Quote:
>I remeber a marginal day, where we were about 20 sailors on the beach looking
>at the only 3 sailors with NP-V8s... there were blasting, fully planing ,wheras
>a bunch of people with 92 "big bellied" prisma were marginally planing.
>If you knwo how to pump, seems that you don't need deep drafts anymore!

A lot of people either do not know the correct pumping technique or they
refuse to pump for other reasons. I think there is a definite market for
good low end and Neil Pryde has targeted the V8 for those customers.

All modern sails work better in marginal conditions if you know how to
pump. I guess those Prisma owners you saw didn't want to pump or didn't
know how.

--
  Juri Munkki                                          Windsurf: fast sailing

 
 
 

Speed vs Slalom foils?

Post by Gerard Hor » Wed, 05 Aug 1992 13:38:53

Quote:


>>An example I know: for north, the prismas went to mdern shape with the 91
>>model, and the 92 one is nearly identical, whereas the 91 infinity was still
>>the old shape, but the 92 infinity adopted the new cut.

>As someone who had 5 Infinitys (3 1989 models, 1 1990 and 1 1991), I can
>tell you that you are wrong.

I have 92 5.0 5.5 Prizma, 91 6.0 Prizma, 92 4.3 Infinity.
The 92 Infinity is nearly identical in shape to the Prizma's except for
the number of camber inducers. The 91 Prizma has a different cut from the
92's under the boom. The top looks much the same whereas the 92 is much more
rounded on the bottom.
The 91 Infinitys that I looked at seemed to be much more square at the top
than the 92's and less rounded at the bottom.
Quote:
>>I remeber a marginal day, where we were about 20 sailors on the beach looking
>>at the only 3 sailors with NP-V8s... there were blasting, fully planing ,wheras
>>a bunch of people with 92 "big bellied" prisma were marginally planing.
>>If you knwo how to pump, seems that you don't need deep drafts anymore!

>All modern sails work better in marginal conditions if you know how to
>pump. I guess those Prisma owners you saw didn't want to pump or didn't
>know how.

I concur, I have been really pleased with my Prizma's performance.
Quote:
>--

gerard
 
 
 

Speed vs Slalom foils?

Post by Bruno Mel » Wed, 05 Aug 1992 03:36:56

Quote:
> However, price is also a factor. Last years sails can
> usually be bought for 2/3 or sometimes half the original price.

Are you talking about used sails or new sails that happen to be last
year's model ?

Thanks,

bruno.

 
 
 

Speed vs Slalom foils?

Post by Harald Bran » Wed, 05 Aug 1992 17:10:57


Quote:
Melli) writes:
> > However, price is also a factor. Last years sails can
> > usually be bought for 2/3 or sometimes half the original price.

> Are you talking about used sails or new sails that happen to be last
> year's model ?

Answer:  New sails that happen to be last year's model.

Moreover, originally I talked about the Gaastra '90 speedfoil. It seems
that the last 5.7 m2 in stock (although still not certain) was sold to my
nephew. The seller then took contact with a sailor that competes in slalom
and usually changes to new sails every (or every second) year and who uses
the '90 speed foil in his competition (since beeing a '90 vintage he was
expected to change). However, he didn't want to sell it!  He was going to
continue compete with it!  And if/when he would sell it, his requested
price was the same as buying an unused last years race sail!!  So
obviously, he liked it.

Regards, Harald

Phone: +46 8 727 39 55  Fax: +46 8 749 05 94
Ellemtel Utvecklings AB
Box 1505
S-125 25 Alvsjo
Sweden