Sheeting out during Jibes

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Endo » Sun, 03 Dec 2000 04:00:00


Everyone says to sheet in when jibing. How come every video I see, the
clew of the sail seems to go progressively out to the side (pointing
towards the center of the turn) rather than being pulled towards the
tail of the board? (isn't that sheeting-in?)

The videos seem to show that just before the sail flip, the boom is
almost perpendicular to the board and the guy is bending his knees a
lot while*** on the boom like it was the handlebars of a bicycle.

I've been sheeting in hard to jibe but I end up doing what my friends
say looks like "world cup style" jibe (in other words super tight) and
then I lose my balance during the sail flip.

Endo

 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by sailqui » Sun, 03 Dec 2000 04:00:00

Hi Endo,
I always laugh when I see this "always sheet in on jibes"  thing.
I know so many people who "extended" their learning curve by taking
this advice "literally", some of them right here on this group.
IF you are fully powered up and at top speed, like the WC racers are
nearly all the time, then sheeting in to INITIATE your jibe is indeed the
right (correct) thing to do, but once you've initiated and started your
carve,
you stay a little over sheeted to keep the power out of the sail, but you
are
still sheeting out.
Think of it this way, if you went into a jibe and oversheeted to the max,
and
then tried to keep the sail at this attitude all the way through your
carve you
would end up pointing straight downwind, with the sail sheeted in like you

were beating hard upwind, and perhaps still raked back. The board would
stall completely as the sail backwinded in the first 45 deg. of your
carve.
So, going in, when you are really powered and moving at top speed,
you oversheet to initiate the jibe, and then sheet out slowly as the board

turns relative to the wind, keeping the sail a little oversheeted (to keep
the power
out of it) all the way to the flip. Then flip way earlier than you think
you should,
and get the sail powered up on the other tack,  while you are still on a
broad reach,
and then come back up to the direction you want to go. This will give you
the most
likelihood of completing your "carve jibe"  and planing both into and out
of it.

What amuses me, is that this has become a "ya gotta do it", yep, oversheet
into every
jibe, or you won't be cool and you won't make the jibe.
Well, if you are not going at WC speeds, going in, and you are not about
1-2 m2
OVERPOWERED in your sail size, guess what?
Oversheeting or sheeting in going into your jibe just KILLS whatever speed
and power
you may have available.
So, for lite wind, underpowered, or just powered up, jibing, you need to
keep board speed
and to do that you need to keep a little power on.
To keep the power on you need to sheet out gradually as you turn off the
wind. keeping the
sail powered to the point that it keeps driving the board. The minute you
oversheet or sheet
out too much, the power drops, and so does the board, right off the plane.

So, the difference here is whether you are going into the jibe with more
speed than you can
handle, or less speed than it takes to complete a fully planing jibe. If
you have too much speed,
sheeting in will bleed off a little speed, pull the rig over and forward
where it needs to be, and
set the rail solidly so you can complete your carve with speed and style.
If on the other hand, you're not going all that fast, and not overpowered,
you need to sheet
OUT at a rate that will keep a manageable amount of power on the mast foot
to keep
everything from stalling.

Quote:
> Everyone says to sheet in when jibing. How come every video I see, the
> clew of the sail seems to go progressively out to the side (pointing
> towards the center of the turn) rather than being pulled towards the
> tail of the board? (isn't that sheeting-in?)

I think the  "Everyone says" is the funny part, because everyone has to
sheet out at some
point (or face a full on stall), so they are saying you need to do this,
but not telling you that
you only do it in conditions where it works, and only momentarily to set
the board and rig
while releasing any excess power.

Quote:
> The videos seem to show that just before the sail flip, the boom is
> almost perpendicular to the board and the guy is bending his knees a
> lot while*** on the boom like it was the handlebars of a bicycle.

Yep, that's the program, once you oversheet a bit to set things up and
get the EXCESS power off the sail.

Quote:
> I've been sheeting in hard to jibe but I end up doing what my friends
> say looks like "world cup style" jibe (in other words super tight) and
> then I lose my balance during the sail flip.

Yep, you are pulling the board into too tight a turn to sustain planing
all the way
around. In lighter winds, when you are less powered up, you need to
increase the
radius of your jibes to keep the board planing. If not, you end up
scrubbing off the speed
you need to complete the jibe by turning the board too tightly.
If you are completely lit, then you can really crank the board in tight as
you will have
the speed you need, and you can always add power back in if necessary.
If not, STALL is what you get, both the board and the rig.
Hope this helps,
    Roger

--
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 7011
Sailworks/Starboard/System B/True Ames/Chinook

 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Rainma » Sun, 03 Dec 2000 04:00:00

...good post,  Roger.

    R.

--
..."Open the pod bay doors,  HAL..."

Quote:
> Hi Endo,
> I always laugh when I see this "always sheet in on jibes"  thing.
> I know so many people who "extended" their learning curve by taking
> this advice "literally", some of them right here on this group.
> IF you are fully powered up and at top speed, like the WC racers are
> nearly all the time, then sheeting in to INITIATE your jibe is indeed the
> right (correct) thing to do, but once you've initiated and started your
> carve,
> you stay a little over sheeted to keep the power out of the sail, but you
> are
> still sheeting out.
> Think of it this way, if you went into a jibe and oversheeted to the max,
> and
> then tried to keep the sail at this attitude all the way through your
> carve you
> would end up pointing straight downwind, with the sail sheeted in like you

> were beating hard upwind, and perhaps still raked back. The board would
> stall completely as the sail backwinded in the first 45 deg. of your
> carve.
> So, going in, when you are really powered and moving at top speed,
> you oversheet to initiate the jibe, and then sheet out slowly as the board

> turns relative to the wind, keeping the sail a little oversheeted (to keep
> the power
> out of it) all the way to the flip. Then flip way earlier than you think
> you should,
> and get the sail powered up on the other tack,  while you are still on a
> broad reach,
> and then come back up to the direction you want to go. This will give you
> the most
> likelihood of completing your "carve jibe"  and planing both into and out
> of it.

> What amuses me, is that this has become a "ya gotta do it", yep, oversheet
> into every
> jibe, or you won't be cool and you won't make the jibe.
> Well, if you are not going at WC speeds, going in, and you are not about
> 1-2 m2
> OVERPOWERED in your sail size, guess what?
> Oversheeting or sheeting in going into your jibe just KILLS whatever speed
> and power
> you may have available.
> So, for lite wind, underpowered, or just powered up, jibing, you need to
> keep board speed
> and to do that you need to keep a little power on.
> To keep the power on you need to sheet out gradually as you turn off the
> wind. keeping the
> sail powered to the point that it keeps driving the board. The minute you
> oversheet or sheet
> out too much, the power drops, and so does the board, right off the plane.

> So, the difference here is whether you are going into the jibe with more
> speed than you can
> handle, or less speed than it takes to complete a fully planing jibe. If
> you have too much speed,
> sheeting in will bleed off a little speed, pull the rig over and forward
> where it needs to be, and
> set the rail solidly so you can complete your carve with speed and style.
> If on the other hand, you're not going all that fast, and not overpowered,
> you need to sheet
> OUT at a rate that will keep a manageable amount of power on the mast foot
> to keep
> everything from stalling.

> > Everyone says to sheet in when jibing. How come every video I see, the
> > clew of the sail seems to go progressively out to the side (pointing
> > towards the center of the turn) rather than being pulled towards the
> > tail of the board? (isn't that sheeting-in?)

> I think the  "Everyone says" is the funny part, because everyone has to
> sheet out at some
> point (or face a full on stall), so they are saying you need to do this,
> but not telling you that
> you only do it in conditions where it works, and only momentarily to set
> the board and rig
> while releasing any excess power.

> > The videos seem to show that just before the sail flip, the boom is
> > almost perpendicular to the board and the guy is bending his knees a
> > lot while*** on the boom like it was the handlebars of a bicycle.

> Yep, that's the program, once you oversheet a bit to set things up and
> get the EXCESS power off the sail.

> > I've been sheeting in hard to jibe but I end up doing what my friends
> > say looks like "world cup style" jibe (in other words super tight) and
> > then I lose my balance during the sail flip.

> Yep, you are pulling the board into too tight a turn to sustain planing
> all the way
> around. In lighter winds, when you are less powered up, you need to
> increase the
> radius of your jibes to keep the board planing. If not, you end up
> scrubbing off the speed
> you need to complete the jibe by turning the board too tightly.
> If you are completely lit, then you can really crank the board in tight as
> you will have
> the speed you need, and you can always add power back in if necessary.
> If not, STALL is what you get, both the board and the rig.
> Hope this helps,
>     Roger

> --
> sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 7011
> Sailworks/Starboard/System B/True Ames/Chinook


 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Roger Jackso » Sun, 03 Dec 2000 04:00:00

Hi Jeff,

Quote:
> Sheeting in is relative to the wind not the board, so you are still sheeted
> in if you are pointed straight downwind and the sail is 90 degree's to the
> board.

Right you are, but on boards that can travel 2X windspeed, I think it's relative
to the
"apparent wind", which changes drastically as you head off wind.

But my real point is that "sheeting in" heading into a jibe is a momentary thing

and only works if you need to dump power and speed going into your jibe,
If you don't have the speed, or the power,  sheeting in (over sheeting slightly)

makes sure you have even less speed and power. Usually the board will
fall off plane right after you over sheet, unless you do it really quickly.
Perhaps this is more semantics, rather than any difference in point of view.
Regards, Roger

Quote:

> Jeff

> > Hi Endo,
> > I always laugh when I see this "always sheet in on jibes"  thing.
> > I know so many people who "extended" their learning curve by taking
> > this advice "literally", some of them right here on this group.
> > IF you are fully powered up and at top speed, like the WC racers are
> > nearly all the time, then sheeting in to INITIATE your jibe is indeed the
> > right (correct) thing to do, but once you've initiated and started your
> > carve,
> > you stay a little over sheeted to keep the power out of the sail, but you
> > are
> > still sheeting out.
> > Think of it this way, if you went into a jibe and oversheeted to the max,
> > and
> > then tried to keep the sail at this attitude all the way through your
> > carve you
> > would end up pointing straight downwind, with the sail sheeted in like you

> <snip>

 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Endo » Sun, 03 Dec 2000 04:00:00

Now this makes sense!!

I've been oversheeting and falling off plane all year while practicing
my jibes. Now if only the ice would hurry up melt. I can't wait to
give this another try!

Endo

On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 13:24:45 -0500, sailquik

Quote:

>Hi Endo,
>I always laugh when I see this "always sheet in on jibes"  thing.
>I know so many people who "extended" their learning curve by taking
>this advice "literally", some of them right here on this group.
>IF you are fully powered up and at top speed, like the WC racers are
>nearly all the time, then sheeting in to INITIATE your jibe is indeed the
>right (correct) thing to do, but once you've initiated and started your
>carve,
>you stay a little over sheeted to keep the power out of the sail, but you
>are
>still sheeting out.
>Think of it this way, if you went into a jibe and oversheeted to the max,
>and
>then tried to keep the sail at this attitude all the way through your
>carve you
>would end up pointing straight downwind, with the sail sheeted in like you

>were beating hard upwind, and perhaps still raked back. The board would
>stall completely as the sail backwinded in the first 45 deg. of your
>carve.
>So, going in, when you are really powered and moving at top speed,
>you oversheet to initiate the jibe, and then sheet out slowly as the board

>turns relative to the wind, keeping the sail a little oversheeted (to keep
>the power
>out of it) all the way to the flip. Then flip way earlier than you think
>you should,
>and get the sail powered up on the other tack,  while you are still on a
>broad reach,
>and then come back up to the direction you want to go. This will give you
>the most
>likelihood of completing your "carve jibe"  and planing both into and out
>of it.

>What amuses me, is that this has become a "ya gotta do it", yep, oversheet
>into every
>jibe, or you won't be cool and you won't make the jibe.
>Well, if you are not going at WC speeds, going in, and you are not about
>1-2 m2
>OVERPOWERED in your sail size, guess what?
>Oversheeting or sheeting in going into your jibe just KILLS whatever speed
>and power
>you may have available.
>So, for lite wind, underpowered, or just powered up, jibing, you need to
>keep board speed
>and to do that you need to keep a little power on.
>To keep the power on you need to sheet out gradually as you turn off the
>wind. keeping the
>sail powered to the point that it keeps driving the board. The minute you
>oversheet or sheet
>out too much, the power drops, and so does the board, right off the plane.

>So, the difference here is whether you are going into the jibe with more
>speed than you can
>handle, or less speed than it takes to complete a fully planing jibe. If
>you have too much speed,
>sheeting in will bleed off a little speed, pull the rig over and forward
>where it needs to be, and
>set the rail solidly so you can complete your carve with speed and style.
>If on the other hand, you're not going all that fast, and not overpowered,
>you need to sheet
>OUT at a rate that will keep a manageable amount of power on the mast foot
>to keep
>everything from stalling.

>> Everyone says to sheet in when jibing. How come every video I see, the
>> clew of the sail seems to go progressively out to the side (pointing
>> towards the center of the turn) rather than being pulled towards the
>> tail of the board? (isn't that sheeting-in?)

>I think the  "Everyone says" is the funny part, because everyone has to
>sheet out at some
>point (or face a full on stall), so they are saying you need to do this,
>but not telling you that
>you only do it in conditions where it works, and only momentarily to set
>the board and rig
>while releasing any excess power.

>> The videos seem to show that just before the sail flip, the boom is
>> almost perpendicular to the board and the guy is bending his knees a
>> lot while*** on the boom like it was the handlebars of a bicycle.

>Yep, that's the program, once you oversheet a bit to set things up and
>get the EXCESS power off the sail.

>> I've been sheeting in hard to jibe but I end up doing what my friends
>> say looks like "world cup style" jibe (in other words super tight) and
>> then I lose my balance during the sail flip.

>Yep, you are pulling the board into too tight a turn to sustain planing
>all the way
>around. In lighter winds, when you are less powered up, you need to
>increase the
>radius of your jibes to keep the board planing. If not, you end up
>scrubbing off the speed
>you need to complete the jibe by turning the board too tightly.
>If you are completely lit, then you can really crank the board in tight as
>you will have
>the speed you need, and you can always add power back in if necessary.
>If not, STALL is what you get, both the board and the rig.
>Hope this helps,
>    Roger

 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Jeff Bilye » Mon, 04 Dec 2000 10:26:50

Sheeting in is relative to the wind not the board, so you are still sheeted
in if you are
pointed straight downwind and the sail is 90 degree's to the board.

Jeff

Quote:
> Hi Endo,
> I always laugh when I see this "always sheet in on jibes"  thing.
> I know so many people who "extended" their learning curve by taking
> this advice "literally", some of them right here on this group.
> IF you are fully powered up and at top speed, like the WC racers are
> nearly all the time, then sheeting in to INITIATE your jibe is indeed the
> right (correct) thing to do, but once you've initiated and started your
> carve,
> you stay a little over sheeted to keep the power out of the sail, but you
> are
> still sheeting out.
> Think of it this way, if you went into a jibe and oversheeted to the max,
> and
> then tried to keep the sail at this attitude all the way through your
> carve you
> would end up pointing straight downwind, with the sail sheeted in like you

<snip>
 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by John Mi » Tue, 05 Dec 2000 01:02:26

The difference in sheeted in(powered up) and oversheeted(stalling) is very
small.
Often people cant get on the plane because they dont sheet in but if you
oversheet you wont get planing either.
With jibing its the same thing you want to maintain the power so you stay
sheeted in for as long as possible.But if you oversheet you can kill the
jibe especially in lighter conditions.
 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Jeff Bilye » Mon, 04 Dec 2000 13:19:36

Hey I didn't think of apparent wind <g>
that must mean in the early parts of the turn, you have to "oversheet"
relative to the board to be sheeted in <hehe>  and then when your dead
downwind it wouldn't be exactly 90 degrees to be sheeted in......... that
would depend on your speed.
Hmmmmmmmmm <g>

Jeff

Quote:
> Hi Jeff,

> > Sheeting in is relative to the wind not the board, so you are still
sheeted
> > in if you are pointed straight downwind and the sail is 90 degree's to
the
> > board.

> Right you are, but on boards that can travel 2X windspeed, I think it's
relative
> to the
> "apparent wind", which changes drastically as you head off wind.

> But my real point is that "sheeting in" heading into a jibe is a momentary
thing

> and only works if you need to dump power and speed going into your jibe,
> If you don't have the speed, or the power,  sheeting in (over sheeting
slightly)

> makes sure you have even less speed and power. Usually the board will
> fall off plane right after you over sheet, unless you do it really
quickly.
> Perhaps this is more semantics, rather than any difference in point of
view.
> Regards, Roger

> > Jeff

> > > Hi Endo,
> > > I always laugh when I see this "always sheet in on jibes"  thing.
> > > I know so many people who "extended" their learning curve by taking
> > > this advice "literally", some of them right here on this group.
> > > IF you are fully powered up and at top speed, like the WC racers are
> > > nearly all the time, then sheeting in to INITIATE your jibe is indeed
the
> > > right (correct) thing to do, but once you've initiated and started
your
> > > carve,
> > > you stay a little over sheeted to keep the power out of the sail, but
you
> > > are
> > > still sheeting out.
> > > Think of it this way, if you went into a jibe and oversheeted to the
max,
> > > and
> > > then tried to keep the sail at this attitude all the way through your
> > > carve you
> > > would end up pointing straight downwind, with the sail sheeted in like
you

> > <snip>

 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Mike » Mon, 04 Dec 2000 14:40:25

I don't recall anyone here advocating sheeting in on every jibe, but I certainly
second Roger's advice against doing so. Any time we enter a jibe in which our
speed (or skill) is likely to be insufficient to coast through the jibe, whether
because we're barely planing or are planing pretty well but choose to carve a
very wide arc (i.e., coast too far to stay planing via inertia), we'll need all
the help we can get. That includes using any sail power available when it
becomes available, if in fact we do lose so much speed that we have any power
available while sailing downwind.

Board speed in a reach, and especially entering the jibe, should exceed the
ambient (true) wind speed, especially when planing in lighter winds. (As several
people here pointed out, efficient boards under big sails can well exceed
ambient wind speed, so the only time they'd get or need power downwind is when
and if they slow down to below ambient wind ... and planing ... speed.) As long
as boat speed exceeds ambient wind speed, as we'd like it to do throughout the
jibe, we have some headwind halfway through the jibe. In a headwind a sail
exposed to the wind would apply the brakes, rather than drive it forward to
maintain speed. Thus it's up to us in each jibe to know whether and when
"deploying the sail" will provide acceleration or braking. Our guesses and
actions to that end improve in accuracy with experience. It's a pretty sure bet
that if we're having to milk the wind and hold the sail very steady to maintain
a plane as we approach and enter the jibe, we'd better stick that sail out there
and start milking the wind's power through most of the jibe if we have any hope
of planing all or most of the way through. (We'd also better avoid upsetting
either the air flow or the water flow, by making no sudden moves with or inputs
to rig or board.) But that's not powered-up sailing, and it presumes we've
already slowed down so much that there IS some apparent aft wind available after
we pass a very broad reach.

Where Roger and I start to diverge (or I'm misinterpreting him) is in this
statement:

Quote:
> IF you are fully powered up ... then sheeting in to INITIATE your jibe is

indeed the correct thing to do, but once > you've initiated and started your
carve, you stay a little over sheeted to keep the power out of the sail, but
Quote:
> you are still sheeting out. Think of it this way, if you went into a jibe and

oversheeted to the max, and then tried > to keep the sail at this attitude all
the way through your carve you would end up pointing straight downwind,
Quote:
> with the sail sheeted in like you were beating hard upwind, and perhaps still

raked back. The board
Quote:
> would stall completely as the sail backwinded in the first 45 deg. of your

carve.

When powered well (properly, IMO), I (as per Cort Larned's lessons in WS Mag)
oversheet (i.e., tilt the mast way forward, sheet in until my boom almost hits
me in the ribs) as I start carving. My boom hand stays very near or against my
rib cage and my mast elbow stays locked at full extension, which means that as
my board and body (including my rib cage) carve through the turn from beam (if
I'm really flyin') or broad reach (if I need to maintain power as I bear off to
insure planing through the jibe) to nearly downwind, my boom hand slides around
from the leeward side of my rib cage until it's pretty close to my sternum. Now
I'm facing nearly downwind and my sail is still sheeted in as much as my rib
cage will allow. I'm still at or above wind speed, ideally, so the last thing I
want to do is deploy my air brakes (i.e., expose any sail to the apparent (head)
wind. My  board sure as heck does not stall unless I totally***up; it feels
instead like it maintains full beam reach speed during the second or two I'm not
sailing under power. That's possible if I accelerated from beam reach speed when
I entered the jibe. The only way it can get backwinded is if I wait too late to
spin the sail, in which case I'll get backwinded in the LAST 45 degrees of the
turn, more or less from just past downwind up to just past the new broad reach.

Our divergence (or misunderstanding) proceeds with:

Quote:
> if you are not going at WC speeds, going in, and you are not about 1-2 m2

OVERPOWERED in your sail size, > guess what? Oversheeting or sheeting in going
into your jibe just KILLS whatever speed and power you may > have available.

If that were the case, 1) why would published tutorials advocate oversheeting
until the sail flip, 2) why don't we all stall when we oversheet until the sail
flip, and 3) how would anyone coast far enough to jibe or do a trick or three
unpowered while planing through a jibe?

Quote:
> So, for lite wind, underpowered, or just powered up, jibing, you need to keep
board speed
> and to do that you need to keep a little power on. To keep the power on you

need to sheet out gradually as
Quote:
> you turn off the wind. keeping the sail powered to the point that it keeps

driving the board. The minute you
Quote:
> oversheet or sheet out too much, the power drops, and so does the board, right

off the plane.

How about momentum? It carries boards -- even sinkers that don't far well
unpowered --  through thousands of RIPPIN' jibes every day. Look at the people
who jibe while holding the boom or mast with one hand or spinning the sail
through 360 or 540 or 720 degrees ... they're sure not applying any power while
turning.

Quote:

> So, the difference here is whether you are going into the jibe with more speed

than you can handle,

Quote:
> or less speed than it takes to complete a fully planing jibe.

How about middle ground, when we have plenty of speed to coast for a few seconds
through a jibe but are in solid control? Isn't that our objective on most jibes?

OTOH ... Roger's probably our most technically astute commentators, so I doubt
he's wrong. Yet I believe I'm either oversheeted or watching the sail spin
untouched. Thus I gather our definitions of  "oversheeting" and "sheeting in"
may differ.

Mike \m/
To reply directly, remove the SpamDam.

Quote:
> Hi Endo,
> I always laugh when I see this "always sheet in on jibes"  thing.
> I know so many people who "extended" their learning curve by taking
> this advice "literally", some of them right here on this group.
> IF you are fully powered up and at top speed, like the WC racers are
> nearly all the time, then sheeting in to INITIATE your jibe is indeed the
> right (correct) thing to do, but once you've initiated and started your
> carve,
> you stay a little over sheeted to keep the power out of the sail, but you
> are
> still sheeting out.
> Think of it this way, if you went into a jibe and oversheeted to the max,
> and
> then tried to keep the sail at this attitude all the way through your
> carve you
> would end up pointing straight downwind, with the sail sheeted in like you

> were beating hard upwind, and perhaps still raked back. The board would
> stall completely as the sail backwinded in the first 45 deg. of your
> carve.
> So, going in, when you are really powered and moving at top speed,
> you oversheet to initiate the jibe, and then sheet out slowly as the board

> turns relative to the wind, keeping the sail a little oversheeted (to keep
> the power
> out of it) all the way to the flip. Then flip way earlier than you think
> you should,
> and get the sail powered up on the other tack,  while you are still on a
> broad reach,
> and then come back up to the direction you want to go. This will give you
> the most
> likelihood of completing your "carve jibe"  and planing both into and out
> of it.

> What amuses me, is that this has become a "ya gotta do it", yep, oversheet
> into every
> jibe, or you won't be cool and you won't make the jibe.
> Well, if you are not going at WC speeds, going in, and you are not about
> 1-2 m2
> OVERPOWERED in your sail size, guess what?
> Oversheeting or sheeting in going into your jibe just KILLS whatever speed
> and power
> you may have available.
> So, for lite wind, underpowered, or just powered up, jibing, you need to
> keep board speed
> and to do that you need to keep a little power on.
> To keep the power on you need to sheet out gradually as you turn off the
> wind. keeping the
> sail powered to the point that it keeps driving the board. The minute you
> oversheet or sheet
> out too much, the power drops, and so does the board, right off the plane.

> So, the difference here is whether you are going into the jibe with more
> speed than you can
> handle, or less speed than it takes to complete a fully planing jibe. If
> you have too much speed,
> sheeting in will bleed off a little speed, pull the rig over and forward
> where it needs to be, and
> set the rail solidly so you can complete your carve with speed and style.
> If on the other hand, you're not going all that fast, and not overpowered,
> you need to sheet
> OUT at a rate that will keep a manageable amount of power on the mast foot
> to keep
> everything from stalling.

> > Everyone says to sheet in when jibing. How come every video I see, the
> > clew of the sail seems to go progressively out to the side (pointing
> > towards the center of the turn) rather than being pulled towards the
> > tail of the board? (isn't that sheeting-in?)

> I think the  "Everyone says" is the funny part, because everyone has to
> sheet out at some
> point (or face a full on stall), so they are saying you need to do this,
> but not telling you that
> you only do it in conditions where it works, and only momentarily to set
> the board and rig
> while releasing any excess power.

> > The videos seem to show that just before the sail flip, the boom is
> > almost perpendicular to the board and the guy is bending his knees a
> > lot while*** on the boom like it was the handlebars of a bicycle.

> Yep, that's the program, once you oversheet a bit to set things up and
> get the EXCESS power off the sail.

...

read more »

 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Endo » Mon, 04 Dec 2000 04:00:00

On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 05:40:25 GMT, "Mike F"

Quote:

>When powered well (properly, IMO), I (as per Cort Larned's lessons in WS Mag)
>oversheet (i.e., tilt the mast way forward, sheet in until my boom almost hits
>me in the ribs) as I start carving. My boom hand stays very near or against my
>rib cage and my mast elbow stays locked at full extension, which means that as
>my board and body (including my rib cage) carve through the turn from beam (if
>I'm really flyin') or broad reach (if I need to maintain power as I bear off to
>insure planing through the jibe) to nearly downwind, my boom hand slides around
>from the leeward side of my rib cage until it's pretty close to my sternum.

This seems like you are preparing for a "duck jibe".

One of the few things I learned that really helped me was to keep the
mast close to my nose as I do the sail flip. This helped me to rotate
the mast around its center instead of having it fall away and pull me
off balance.

I can't see how one would go from having the mast tilted full forward
to pulling it back to your nose? I don't see this in any videos I
watch. Wouldn't this front to back movement upset one's balance?

Endo

 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by sailqui » Mon, 04 Dec 2000 04:00:00

Right on John!
And it's even more sensitive/critical in smaller sails as they have
significantly
less draft and are more sensitive to minor changes in sheeting angle..
It always takes me a few minutes to adjust when moving down from >8.0 m2
sails too >=5.5 m2. I get accustomed to big sails that have a sheeting angle
range of say an inch or two, and then sail something small where the sheeting
angle range is like 1/4"-1/2" and until I adjust my technique, the sail seems
twitchy and very on/off.
Maybe this is one of the things that separates us mere mortals from people
like Kevin Pritchard. They have the opportunities to train so much that they
develop a feel for a much more precise sheeting angle that gives optimum
speed and handling, all the time. If you watch someone like Kevin, or Phil
McGain, or Bruce Peterson, they seem to make very few sheeting angle
adjustments, locking the sail down and in to a sheeting angle that allows
them to leave other less skillful sailors far behind, very quickly.
later, Roger
--
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 7011
Sailworks/Starboard/WS Hawaii/HPL/Powerex
 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Mendota7 » Mon, 04 Dec 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>Now if only the ice would hurry up melt. I can't wait to
>give this another try!

Try to get some kind of ice board if you don't have much snow on the ice.You
will be amazed at how many gybes you can get in, in an hour. You loose your
balance, just step off, get back on and go. No waterstarts to set up or board
to position.  Granted the board feel is way different but the sail handling is
pretty much the same and in gybing that is half the problem. This winter I am
going to try to learn to Duck Gybe.
                Dave
 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Mike » Mon, 04 Dec 2000 04:00:00

Nope. Ordinary jibe. I don't know how my post implies the mast is near my nose.
Quite the opposite: it's as far out in front of me as I can get it, in the
oft-used bow-and-arrow analogy in which the front arm is holding the bow (the
front of the boom) with the elbow locked straight and the rear arm is pulling
the bowstring and arrow (the back of the boom) back. This is straight from the
magazine tutorials on powered-up jibing.

May I therefore presume that your

Quote:
>One of the few things I learned that really helped me was to keep the
> mast close to my nose as I do the sail flip. This helped me to rotate
> the mast around its center instead of having it fall away and pull me
> off balance.

refers to duck jibes? I hope so.

And Roger's comment ...

Quote:
>I get accustomed to big sails that have a sheeting angle
>range of say an inch or two, and then sail something small where the sheeting
>angle range is like 1/4"-1/2" and until I adjust my technique, the sail seems
>twitchy and very on/off.

reflects a VERY different sailing style than I'm accustomed to. My sheeting
angle varies several times per minute by FEET, even on sails half the size he's
referring to. Perhaps our very different jibing philosophies reflect our very
different sailing styles.

Mike \m/
To reply directly, remove the SpamDam.

Quote:
> On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 05:40:25 GMT, "Mike F"

> >When powered well (properly, IMO), I (as per Cort Larned's lessons in WS Mag)
> >oversheet (i.e., tilt the mast way forward, sheet in until my boom almost
hits
> >me in the ribs) as I start carving. My boom hand stays very near or against
my
> >rib cage and my mast elbow stays locked at full extension, which means that
as
> >my board and body (including my rib cage) carve through the turn from beam
(if
> >I'm really flyin') or broad reach (if I need to maintain power as I bear off
to
> >insure planing through the jibe) to nearly downwind, my boom hand slides
around
> >from the leeward side of my rib cage until it's pretty close to my sternum.

> This seems like you are preparing for a "duck jibe".

> One of the few things I learned that really helped me was to keep the
> mast close to my nose as I do the sail flip. This helped me to rotate
> the mast around its center instead of having it fall away and pull me
> off balance.

> I can't see how one would go from having the mast tilted full forward
> to pulling it back to your nose? I don't see this in any videos I
> watch. Wouldn't this front to back movement upset one's balance?

> Endo

 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by sailqui » Mon, 04 Dec 2000 04:00:00

Hey Mike,

<snip>

Quote:
> And Roger's comment ...
> >I get accustomed to big sails that have a sheeting angle
> >range of say an inch or two, and then sail something small where the sheeting
> >angle range is like 1/4"-1/2" and until I adjust my technique, the sail seems
> >twitchy and very on/off.
> reflects a VERY different sailing style than I'm accustomed to. My sheeting
> angle varies several times per minute by FEET, even on sails half the size he's
> referring to. Perhaps our very different jibing philosophies reflect our very
> different sailing styles.

No, I was not really referring to anything I do in a jibe, but more just the fact
that
the smaller sails have a smaller sheeting range, going in one direction.
This was in response to the comment that John Mic made about the "nuances" between
being sheeted in optimally, oversheeted, or sheeted out.
It does apply to jibing too, but not to your "3 dimensional sailing" as much I
guess.

I think it does apply,  but you never spend enough time going the same direction or
with
the board in the same attitude to notice it like those of us who sail on flatter
water, with
big sails, where you have the time to experiment and find out where the sail is
fast, when
it's oversheeted, and when it's undersheeted, either condition being significantly
slower
than the optimum sheeting angle.
Not disagreeing with you at all. Just a different perspective from someone who sails
in
much different conditions.
later
    Roger

 
 
 

Sheeting out during Jibes

Post by Roger Jackso » Mon, 04 Dec 2000 04:00:00

Hey Dave,
You may have hit on the one thing that will sort through all the little
different ways of saying things here, and get right to the point.
I have an extended skateboard I use as a land sailor, and I can
do lots of things on the landsailor, that are much harder on a board.
Why, because the land sailor is on good ball bearings and will "coast"
through a jibe much better without the frictional drag one finds on the
water.
And, from my experiences on the land sailor, I can almost agree with
Mike on the staying way sheeted in thing going into a jibe. I can do
this on the land sailor alot better than on a board on the water.

You will get that duck jibe on the ice I'm sure. I can do them all day
on the land sailor, but not sure I've ever really completed a good one
on the water.
Go for it! You'll get it quick on the ice.
later Roger