New Board Advice.....phase two.

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by Jim Munro x24 » Wed, 22 Jul 1992 01:33:46


First I"d like to thank everyone who responded through news and/or E-mail.

I've decided that 9'0" is the maximum size I can go, given local conditions.
I think the volume of my glass board is around 85-90 liters, so it is pretty
'sinky', so I've decided I don't really need a much bigger board, I just need
a flotier board for those lighter days.

For me the choice now comes down to a BIC Adagio which provides real good
floatation in an 8'9" board, or a Seatrend 9'0".

I beleive the Adagio to be easier to sail, being a rereational slalom design,
with the Seatrend being a dedicated slalom design and very fast. Both
check out at around 107 litres.

The probl;em is I hate the BIC graphics. The all white look of the race boards
is much classier and naturally I just have to look cool on the beach to
compensate for looking very uncool on the water!

My question is:

        How much more difficult will it be to master a full-on slalom or race board.

        The local Stretch boards look pretty good and all the local hot shots have
        them. They are hellishly expensive though.

        In the end, the decision may well come down to price.

        Anyone who wants to sell a 92 BIC Adagio or Setrend 9'0" real cheap
        please let me know.

Jim Munro

 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by Chad Pri » Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:53:01


Quote:
>    Anyone who wants to sell a 92 BIC Adagio or Setrend 9'0" real cheap
>    please let me know.

Call Jim or Janine Sandstedt (The Board Cellar), who sell BIC out of their
ba***t in Omaha NE. At least one other netter has bought from them (besides
me, for whom they are  the local dealer), when they offered the best deal he
could get on a North Sail (beat the mail-order places).

Phone them at (402) 330-4923.

PS - I'm NOT affiliated, just a happy customer.

chad price

(402) 489-3084 - home
(402) 559-7936 - work

--
chad



 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by Juri Munk » Thu, 23 Jul 1992 04:15:52


Quote:
>The probl;em is I hate the BIC graphics. The all white look of the race boards
>is much classier and naturally I just have to look cool on the beach to
>compensate for looking very uncool on the water!

I just saw a Sputnik 270 that used to have the Gorbatshev graphics. The owner
had sanded off the graphics and then redone the deck with laquer and salt
and microballoons. It looked really great.

Quote:
>My question is:

>How much more difficult will it be to master a full-on slalom or race board.

Not much. Since you already can sail a shortboard, there should be no reason
not to choose a race slalom. The Adagio is a dedicated slalom board. (As
far as I know...)

--
  Juri Munkki                                          Windsurf: fast sailing


 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by felix.cabr » Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:11:05

Quote:


>>The probl;em is I hate the BIC graphics. The all white look of the race boards
>>is much classier and naturally I just have to look cool on the beach to
>>compensate for looking very uncool on the water!

Guess what!? For '93 BIC is eliminating the awful graphics it used on the
Presto and other boards. You did not hear it from me (things are not set in
concrete yet) but most boards will have white graphics of some sort. This
means they will not be plain white but the graphics used will be mostly white in
color.

They are also coming out with an ultra fast slalom board measuring 8'10" with
95 liters of volume. In a couple of weeks I'll know the weight and a bit more
about the '93 stuff.

BIC is definitely getting interested in creating boards for the race oriented
sailor as apposed to just recreational (Yiippee!!). I'm happy because BIC boards
are durable, inexpensive and carry excellent warranties.

Adios!

--

AT&T Bell Labs       {  att!mtgzfs3!felixc  }       a rad board, rad waves,
Middletown,NJ        {     (908)957-5081    }       and a company sickday!"

 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by Will Est » Fri, 24 Jul 1992 07:12:34

Quote:

>They are also coming out with an ultra fast slalom board measuring 8'10" with
>95 liters of volume. In a couple of weeks I'll know the weight and a bit more
>about the '93 stuff.

Oh great, just what Bic needs: another fast 8'10" board with something
around 100 liters of flotation!  :(  Aren't the Adagio and Electric Rock enough in
that size range?

Personally, what I think Bic needs is a high-wind board that can match
up to the Mistral Ecstasy.  They also need 8'6" and 8'10" boards that jibe
great rather than just being all-out race boards.


 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by felix.cabr » Fri, 24 Jul 1992 23:47:42

Quote:


>>They are also coming out with an ultra fast slalom board measuring 8'10" with
>>95 liters of volume. In a couple of weeks I'll know the weight and a bit more
>>about the '93 stuff.

>Oh great, just what Bic needs: another fast 8'10" board with something
>around 100 liters of flotation!  :(  Aren't the Adagio and Electric Rock enough in
>that size range?

Would you say the F2 Sputnik or the Mistral Energy to also be in that range?
Size and flotation is something but you also have to consider weight, bottom
shape, rails etc.

The new 8'10 is not going to be an all-around slalom board like the adagio.
Take a look at the shapes on the E-rock compared to the adagio. They are
created for different conditions. One excels over the other in different
situations and conditions.

Even though they are similar in size, you would not compare the sputnik to the
adagio would you? Also, all 12' boards can't be considered "course boards"
right?

Quote:

>Personally, what I think Bic needs is a high-wind board that can match
>up to the Mistral Ecstasy.  

The Alto is a board worthy of challenging the ecstasy especially with a good
fin. It handles the waves with great maneuverability. Its probably better in
waves than the ecstasy which is more of a wave/slalom .

Quote:
>They also need 8'6" and 8'10" boards that jibe great rather than just being all-out race boards.

The 8'6 is called the RAP. The 8'10, well I don't know yet what they will call
it. If a person knows how to jibe then any board will jibe great once they get
used to it. Even a Hiper-Tech.

--

AT&T Bell Labs       {  att!mtgzfs3!felixc  }       a rad board, rad waves,
Middletown,NJ        {     (908)957-5081    }       and a company sickday!"

 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by Will Est » Sat, 25 Jul 1992 12:52:40

Quote:



>>>They are also coming out with an ultra fast slalom board measuring 8'10" with
>>>95 liters of volume. In a couple of weeks I'll know the weight and a bit more
>>>about the '93 stuff.

>>Oh great, just what Bic needs: another fast 8'10" board with something
>>around 100 liters of flotation!  :(  Aren't the Adagio and Electric Rock enough in
>>that size range?
>Would you say the F2 Sputnik or the Mistral Energy to also be in that range?
>Size and flotation is something but you also have to consider weight, bottom
>shape, rails etc.
>The new 8'10 is not going to be an all-around slalom board like the adagio.
>Take a look at the shapes on the E-rock compared to the adagio. They are
>created for different conditions. One excels over the other in different
>situations and conditions.

I'm not saying that any board that is 8'10" is the same.  I'm just
saying that Bic already has a board, the Adagio, with about the same
length and flotation that is very, very fast.  What does the new board
do that the Adagio doesn't do?  If it just goes faster, then I wonder
how many sailors will really be able to use that speed.  Only 5% of the
sailors I have observed can do anywhere near the top end of a board in
5.0 or under conditions.  The chop just makes it too hard for all but
the best to sail efficiently in those conditions.  And I hope Bic isn't
going to get into the business of making macho speed boards that only 5%
of us can really sail well.  

What those of us who are recreational sailors would probably rather see
would be boards like the Mistral Ecstacy, Stinger, and Screamer, but at
a Bic price!  To me, *that* would really round out the Bic line.  Bic
does not need another fast board that travels straight like a bullet but
jibes poorly and turns only with a lot of effort.

There are a lot of us, like me, who only have one board that needs to
take them anywhere from 3.5 to 5.5 conditions.  When I was in 4.0
conditions last weekend at Rio Vista going over three foot swell, I
wasn't thinking how can I get maximum speed out of my Adagio.  I was
thinking something more along the lines of how the hell am I going to
survive another 10 seconds in *this*?!  For me, I would rather have an
all-purpose board that goes fast but turns very, very easily through
swell.  

Quote:
>>Personally, what I think Bic needs is a high-wind board that can match
>>up to the Mistral Ecstasy.  
>The Alto is a board worthy of challenging the ecstasy especially with a good
>fin. It handles the waves with great maneuverability. Its probably better in
>waves than the ecstasy which is more of a wave/slalom .

But that's just the point.  The Alto is a wave board only.  The Ecstasy
is more of an all-around board that will take you through a much wider
range of conditions.  And I think that Bic needs a companion to
the Alto that is a wave/slalom.

Quote:
>>They also need 8'6" and 8'10" boards that jibe great rather than just being all-out race boards.
>The 8'6 is called the RAP.

My nickname for this board is the BULLET.  Like a bullet it goes FAST,
and STRAIGHT.   It doesn't have a very turny feel to it.  It's a great
race board, but I wonder whether it is really an all-around board.
So, again, I think that Bic needs another board in this size range that
is more like the Mistral Stinger.

Quote:
>The 8'10, well I don't know yet what they will call
>it. If a person knows how to jibe then any board will jibe great once they get
>used to it. Even a Hiper-Tech.

I distinguish between jibing and having a board that turns well.  If you
are on a Screamer or Stinger you can't help but notice that the board
will turn easily with very little pressure on the rail.  An Adagio or
Rap has no such gift for easy turns through swells.  These boards love
to go fast in a straight line.  They do turn, just not as well, or as
easily.  And, yeah, an expert can make any board do anything, but I'm
not talking about qualities that the top 5% would care about anyway.

I am a very satisfied Bic customer.  I am simply pointing out that
they should round out their line rather than continue to specialize
around fast slalom boards.  Variety is the spice of life.  


 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by felix.cabr » Sat, 25 Jul 1992 22:41:40

[All our deleted comments are well taken.]

Quote:
>I am a very satisfied Bic customer.  I am simply pointing out that
>they should round out their line rather than continue to specialize
>around fast slalom boards.  Variety is the spice of life.  

I understand what your concerns are Will and agree with most of them. However,
the fact is BIC historically has been in the market to satisfy the quote
"recreational" sailor. Some of their models are even fast. The truth is they
never really had a board to suit the race oriented sailors. Although the
adagio or even the E-rock could perform well in local regattas they do not
match the caliber of boards in the national ranking fleet.

They are slowly trying to create boards that will satisfy the racer. First
real attempt came with the RAP and the Presto. They are now gearing up to
challenge race machines like the F2, Fanatic, and Mistral boards. We will
see more and more boards that go straight and fast with hull weights in the
low ***s (aka World Cup).

On the other hand they will continue to make boards like the adagio, rock and
alto to satisfy the NOT so race oriented sailors. That is why they have two
or three boards with the same length and liter specs. Different handling
boards for different conditions. Either way I'm sure both of us will be
happy with the lineup which is BIC's marketing strategy.

Personally, I own an 8'6 wave/slalom custom (Fox) which I use for my
"recreational" enjoyment. All my other boards ('92 Mega Cat, '93 Fanatic/BIC
whichever catches my interest) are to help me place in those national ranking
regattas (doesn't always happen :-) ).

--

AT&T Bell Labs       {  att!mtgzfs3!felixc  }       a rad board, rad waves,
Middletown,NJ        {     (908)957-5081    }       and a company sickday!"

 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by Chad Pri » Sun, 26 Jul 1992 01:00:24

Quote:

>On the other hand they will continue to make boards like the adagio, rock and
>alto to satisfy the NOT so race oriented sailors. That is why they have two
>or three boards with the same length and liter specs. Different handling
>boards for different conditions. Either way I'm sure both of us will be
>happy with the lineup which is BIC's marketing strategy.

Which leads me to ask: what is the Astro Rock designed for? I have one, and I
can see little difference between it and the Presto. The Presto looks like it
might be a little easier to maintain a plane in a gybe since it has a thicker
tail.

chad

--
chad


 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by Trevor Ha » Sun, 26 Jul 1992 02:13:20


Quote:

>Which leads me to ask: what is the Astro Rock designed for? I have one, and I
>can see little difference between it and the Presto. The Presto looks like it
>might be a little easier to maintain a plane in a gybe since it has a thicker
>tail.

Why don't we start a general discussion about design principles and
tradeoffs?  I'll admit, my brain is full of hype from the local
Fanatic rep.  I'm sure that the net has more aggregate wisdom about
what features contribute to which performance characteristics.

Here, I'll start the discussion (I'm sure some of these are wrong):

        Rails           Boxy(thick) - better upwind ability
                        Thin - better carving ability
        Edges           Sharp - better holding capability
                        Beveled - easier turn initiation
        Bottoms         Concave - faster planing
                        V - greater stability through chop

--
 +-----+ Trevor Hall                     "Frisbeetarianism: the belief
 |    #| Database Engineer                that when you die, your soul
 |     | Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.   goes up on the roof and gets

 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by Kirk Lindstr » Sun, 26 Jul 1992 00:40:03

Quote:
>Personally, what I think Bic needs is a high-wind board that can match
>up to the Mistral Ecstasy.  They also need 8'6" and 8'10" boards that jibe
>great rather than just being all-out race boards.



----------
First, I agree that BIC makes excellent boards for the money.

Second, I think truely high wind boards can't be used in that many
places so it might not be good a good investment of tooling dollars
for BIC.  Also, each true high wind location (say 25 knots and above)
has its own set of conditions which are best addressed by local board
makers.  Add the variable of sailor weight the combinations possible
for high wind gets very large.  For example, my CFlex is very good
for riding swells and waves or sailing fast in (relatively) flat water
like San Luis/O'Neil Forebay at my weight.  At Rio Vista, I find that the
tail is much too wide and I bounce over the waves rather than slice
through them on starboard reaches.  I looked at the boards the guys
doing lots of jumps, fancy jibes and other expert moves
(and a few gals) were using when I was there on a 4.0/3.0 day and they
were Gorge Animals, ASDs and other custom 8'2"'s to 8'6"'s with narrow
tails (there were a few custom ASD epoxy wave boards some of the guys
from ASD were trying out as well).

On the coast, many wave sailors use asymetrics so BIC would have to tool
for two boards with the asymetry on one side for one board and the other
side for the other.........

Kirk out

 
 
 

New Board Advice.....phase two.

Post by Kirk Lindstr » Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:50:09

Excellent Topic!  I'll probably make some mistakes too, but that is how
we learn.
Quote:
>Here, I'll start the discussion (I'm sure some of these are wrong):

>    Rails           Boxy(thick) - better upwind ability
>                    Thin - better carving ability

I think the better upwind ability comes from having hard rails with a
thick tail and lots of flat in the rear.

Hard rails are FASTER since they release water easier (less drag).  Once
you are on a plane, only the bottom shape and the rail design effect
performance (according to ASD).  Having more volume just makes the board
easier to slog for us big people.

Quote:
>    Edges           Sharp - better holding capability
>                    Beveled - easier turn initiation

Same as rails, to me.
Quote:
>    Bottoms         Concave - faster planing
>                    V - greater stability through chop

add:                    Flat - Faster once on a plane

Also, from discussions with many that build their own boards plus the
guys at ASD, the amount of flat effects how a board handles.  The optimum
amount of flat is still being determined.

add:    Tail Shape      Wide - quicker to plane, better up wind
                        narrow - faster and easier to handle in high
                                 wind or big chop (which is why I think
                                 the Stinger is such a good Bay Area
                                 Board)

        Nose Rocker     Lots = easier to sail fast off the wind in chop
                        little = faster upwind

        Tail Rocker     Rather than FLat, this is better for waves

        Volume:         Or Volume to Sailor Weight ratio.

        Weight:         >20 lbs durable, good for learning jumps
                         13.75 lbs- a big guy like me can pump w/a 6.1 to a
                         plane in 14 Knots of wind and blow by a 100lb
                         gal (or guy) on a 5.3/Stinger.
                        <12 lbs - Don't jump it!

Quote:
>--
>+-----+ Trevor Hall                     "Frisbeetarianism: the belief

Kirk out
8'8" Challange Flex, 8'11" & 9'3" ASD epoxy, 9'9" Velocity & 11'6" Malibu