Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by rod. » Mon, 09 Oct 2006 03:52:17


Hi group

I am a child of the wide board era. After 4 1/2 years windsurfing I
have had numerous boards between 85-100cm, mostly Starts, Go's,
FreeFormulas, Ftypes. They have given me a huge amount of TOW and fun.

I currently have a 115L RRD freeride used with 7.6 and 6.4 Simmer 0-7's
for 12 knots and up, and a FreeFormula 158 used with a 9.0 Simmer 0-7
for anything under. I sail mostly in a tidal inlet with flat to small
chop conditions but equally available to me is either open sea or inner
harbour.

I'm finding that in under 12 knots in the flat water venue that BAFFING
starts to become, dare I say it, boring! It's planing for the sake of
it. And when it's marginal, being on and off the plane just isn't fun.

The few times I've tried the open sea or harbour I'm either
underpowered and banging down between each piece of chop/swell or well
powered and getting bounced around. I just can't seem to get a good
ride. (obviously lack of skill plays a part here but you gotta go with
what you got).

I'm wondering whether the new breed of longboard like the Kona might be
a good alternative for me but I have no longboard experience. It seems
like in harbour / open sea in under 12 knots it would be really good.
At the flat water venue I guess I'd be giving up some sub 12 knot
planing.

And what about an older longboard if I can't afford a new longboard?

Advice appreciated.

regards,

rod
(perpetual 80 kg 40 year old intermediate)

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by Mark Pain » Mon, 09 Oct 2006 05:06:54

Rod,

If you find back-and-forthing to be unfulfilling might I suggest
rigging up a smaller, yes, smaller sail when it's under 12 knots and
doing some light wind freestyle.

I think you'll find that the Kona might ride a little bit smoother than
your alternatives in the chop but if you're not having fun in those
conditions I'm not sure it's worth the bother and the expense.

If you rig up a 5.5 or a 6.0 on the FreeFormula you can practice some
lightwind freestyle on the flat water. Sail 360s, heli-tacks, backwind
jibes, sail and body 360s, lee-side sailing, Haas tacks, back to the
sail, trick waterstarts (a nice skill to have), etc. Not everyone
enjoys light wind freestyle, but since you mention that you're getting
bored in sub-planing to marginal conditions, you might be a good
candidate, especially since it sounds like you really enjoy being on
the water. You'll spend plenty of time getting wet, perhaps scuff up
your shins and knees and nick your wetsuit, but there's no doubt your
skills will improve, and a lot of the skills you force yourself to
learn will translate to higher winds.

Longboarding can be a lot of fun even though other folks might not be
so into it. I love to go out and just cruise around with the sea
turtles, rays, and barracudas here in Bonaire during our light wind
season, but even then I seem to prefer to get back on my TwinTip 105
and play around with light-wind spocks, free willys, lolly pops, and
pile drivers, even if it's just blowing 11 or 12 knots.

Just a suggestion. I hope you find something to keep yourself amused.

Good luck,
Mark Paine

Quote:
> I'm finding that in under 12 knots in the flat water venue that BAFFING
> starts to become, dare I say it, boring! It's planing for the sake of
> it. And when it's marginal, being on and off the plane just isn't fun.


 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by rod. » Mon, 09 Oct 2006 06:30:59

Thanks Mark. That is a good suggestion. It's one of those things that i
know i should do to further my general skills but i usually end up
rigging big to chase the plane.

i guess it's not so much being bored, although that can come into it,
as putting all my eggs in the planing basket when the conditions often
dissapoint and there ends up being more slogging than expected.

I see the Kona or similar as being a board which can be fun when
planing if the wind climbs during a light wind session but also be fun
when the wind drops to sub planing FF conditions. tha way for instance
if i choose to go out on the open harbour I can be always moving at a
comfortable pace hooked in moving on and off the plane at will rather
than the stop start affair it can be on the FF in marginal conditions.

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by rku.. » Mon, 09 Oct 2006 21:52:13

Quote:

> ...... out on the open harbour I can be always moving at a
> comfortable pace hooked in moving on and off the plane at will rather
> than the stop start affair it can be on the FF in marginal conditions.

Rod,
You've got it figured out.
Have fun.
Ray
 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by snowy.. » Mon, 09 Oct 2006 22:39:25

Quote:
>>It's planing for the sake of it. And when it's marginal, being on and off the plane just isn't fun.<<  Unfortunately, that will be the case if you go for an old longboard, too, only your threshold winds will be a bit higher.  However, I think you should try them as they don't come with much for price.  If you know how to use them, they are easier in the waves and swell because of their width and nose.  However, you'll be still in a similar position and going with a smaller sail will be a must as the new wide boards can take larger sails than they could.  Smaller sails makes it easy to tack and gybe so if you are still developing those skills, you can go out and practice with small sails on any kind of boards.

> Hi group

> I am a child of the wide board era. After 4 1/2 years windsurfing I
> have had numerous boards between 85-100cm, mostly Starts, Go's,
> FreeFormulas, Ftypes. They have given me a huge amount of TOW and fun.

> I currently have a 115L RRD freeride used with 7.6 and 6.4 Simmer 0-7's
> for 12 knots and up, and a FreeFormula 158 used with a 9.0 Simmer 0-7
> for anything under. I sail mostly in a tidal inlet with flat to small
> chop conditions but equally available to me is either open sea or inner
> harbour.

> I'm finding that in under 12 knots in the flat water venue that BAFFING
> starts to become, dare I say it, boring! It's planing for the sake of
> it. And when it's marginal, being on and off the plane just isn't fun.

> The few times I've tried the open sea or harbour I'm either
> underpowered and banging down between each piece of chop/swell or well
> powered and getting bounced around. I just can't seem to get a good
> ride. (obviously lack of skill plays a part here but you gotta go with
> what you got).

> I'm wondering whether the new breed of longboard like the Kona might be
> a good alternative for me but I have no longboard experience. It seems
> like in harbour / open sea in under 12 knots it would be really good.
> At the flat water venue I guess I'd be giving up some sub 12 knot
> planing.

> And what about an older longboard if I can't afford a new longboard?

> Advice appreciated.

> regards,

> rod
> (perpetual 80 kg 40 year old intermediate)

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by Amokama » Mon, 09 Oct 2006 22:41:57

Rod,

The difference in wind speeds needed for planing (BAF sailing) on my
short wide Bic Techno II 82 (160 liter) and my Mistral Prodigy (255
liter) with the same size sail is very minimal.  However, here are a
couple other reasons I like to sail the larger boards.

Part of the joy of owning a long board or Hybrid board is being able to
go exploring upwind.  I sail in a bay where it's fun to cross over to
the other side which is near a 5 mile jaunt.  The normal wind direction
makes the first leg of that crossing an upwind affair.

In early spring and late fall when the water is cold I'm windsurfing on
the Prodigy as my feet are out of the water and it's near impossible to
fall off that super wide deck.

I can also use the Prodigy for racing, I'm lucky as there is a good
sized Prodigy fleet in my neck of the woods.

Practicing racing is an activity that can be done in very light and
heavy air conditions. Pinching up wind hard and sailing off the wind
hard is something one can do other then baffing.   So you have two
whole new directions you can go on the water.

visit  www.prodigyonedesign.org   for some more information on racing

Scott

Quote:

> Hi group

> I am a child of the wide board era. After 4 1/2 years windsurfing I
> have had numerous boards between 85-100cm, mostly Starts, Go's,
> FreeFormulas, Ftypes. They have given me a huge amount of TOW and fun.

> I currently have a 115L RRD freeride used with 7.6 and 6.4 Simmer 0-7's
> for 12 knots and up, and a FreeFormula 158 used with a 9.0 Simmer 0-7
> for anything under. I sail mostly in a tidal inlet with flat to small
> chop conditions but equally available to me is either open sea or inner
> harbour.

> I'm finding that in under 12 knots in the flat water venue that BAFFING
> starts to become, dare I say it, boring! It's planing for the sake of
> it. And when it's marginal, being on and off the plane just isn't fun.

> The few times I've tried the open sea or harbour I'm either
> underpowered and banging down between each piece of chop/swell or well
> powered and getting bounced around. I just can't seem to get a good
> ride. (obviously lack of skill plays a part here but you gotta go with
> what you got).

> I'm wondering whether the new breed of longboard like the Kona might be
> a good alternative for me but I have no longboard experience. It seems
> like in harbour / open sea in under 12 knots it would be really good.
> At the flat water venue I guess I'd be giving up some sub 12 knot
> planing.

> And what about an older longboard if I can't afford a new longboard?

> Advice appreciated.

> regards,

> rod
> (perpetual 80 kg 40 year old intermediate)

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by Jean-Mari » Tue, 10 Oct 2006 03:59:03

 Rod,
If of interest,I am selling an old Mistral Equipe (XCS-XR) that is
truly in excellent condition.  The mast track was replaced w/ one that
takes a standard screw-in base.  It is the pintail type, 240l.  Anybody
that has sailed this will tell you that it is fast.  There is a decent
fin on it.  Available for pick-up in Stamford (CT)..  I will be glad to
let it go for $250.  Let me know if interest and good sailing!

Jean-Marie

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by jt » Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:54:13

I second both trying low wind freestyle including sailing backwards and
considering a hybrid or longboard.  For me on inland lakes with
relatively light and gusty winds, a centerboard is nice to get around
the lake.  Under typical conditions I may actually get more planing
because I can put the centerboard down in the lulls to get upwind and
then retract it to bear off and plane in the gusts.

I have sailed the Prodigy, the Kona Style, and the Mistral One Design
(IMCO).  Our local club has Prodigys and I own both a Kona and an IMCO.
 Some considerations on the hybrid/longboard question are:

1.Are you interested in trying racing, which can both be fun and
improve your sailing?  If so, the most important consideration is what,
if anything, is raced in your part of the world?  The Prodigy is raced
both as a one design and as a hybrid.  The newer Kona is registered as
a longboard and also raced as a one design (I gather in significant
numbers in France).

2.Transporting and storing the board.  Do you plan to car-top the
board, use a trailer (enclosed for storage as well as transport?), or
put the board inside a station wagon/estate car, a minivan, or a full
size van?  How many boards and other passengers would you take for a
sailing session? What about storage at home?  Do you have a garage
where a larger board could be hoisted up and out of the way?

3.  The sailing experience on a  wider and shorter hybrid (Prodigy,
Pacer, Techno 293, and others) vs. longer and narrower longboard (Kona,
Kona Mahalo if you are a big guy or want to take someone smaller along
sailing tandem with two sails, Kona Surf if you want smaller) are both
be different from your F-type and different from each other.

Sailboard stability is continuum that what one person likes another may
not.  It is similar to riding a tricycle vs two-wheel bike with
training wheels vs fat tire mountain bike vs narrow tire road bike vs a
unicycle.  The Prodigy is really stable at 255 liters and  85 cm wide
with thick hard rails; its sort of a two wheel bike with training
wheels.  It was perfect for me learning to use a harness.  However,
with time I much preferred sailing the club's Mistral IMCO longboards
because they were faster to windward, faster in sub planning
conditions, were more responsive to sailor input (only 64.5 cm wide,
easier to rail), and just went better with the largest sail the club
had (only one 8 or 8.5 m sail).

For me, the Kona Style is a nice compromise, sort of a mountain bike
with moderate width tires and clipless pedals.  Compared to the IMCO it
is easier to jibe, may plane a bit earlier, and is slightly more stable
(220 liters, 70 cm).  It fits inside my minivan on shelf racks better
than either the IMCO (too long) or a Prodigy (too wide for its length)
with a passenger seat available behind the driver.  I park the minivan
in the ramp at work, no worries about vandalism, and leave directly for
sailing.

The Mistral Equipe mentioned above is reputed to be a nice, fast
longboard.  With the mast track already changed so that you will not
have to deal with finding parts, this might be a good way to go if you
live in the Northeast USA.

Some links:
Racing:
http://www.raceboard.org/page0001v01.htm
http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?PID=13829

Exocet Kona family of boards, the new Warp 380 dedicated raceboard,
Pacer Hybrids:
http://www.exocet-original.com/kona-windsurfing/
http://www.exocet-original.com/

Mistral One Design:
http://www.imco.org/page0001v01.htm

Bic Techno 293
http://www.techno293.org/

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by rod. » Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:15:52

Many thanks jt and others. This is very helpful. I live way down in New
Zealand so I appreciate the offer of the longboard but fear it's a
little far to go to pick up :-).

At least it sounds like I'm not out of the ball park with my thinking.
Having only started this great sport 5 years ago at 35 I have long
suspected that if I had taken it up at 20 when it was at it's peak I
would have been an avid longboarder so maybe that;s where this is
coming from.

I am considering an older longboard like the IMCO but they still
command a reasonable price and I'm a little weary of the whole spare
parts issue which is why the Kona appeals because it's looks fairly
simple with not too many moving parts.

There's not much of a racing presence here but i would race if at all
possible. I see it more as a way to have fun on the water in almost any
conditions up to the point I can be having fun on the 7.6 and 115L
board, something the FF158 can't always deliver.

We also have some nice local destinations across the harbour and
further out to some reasonably sheltered islands which would be pretty
cool to be able to visit.

As said above, often is just about being out on the water, not always
about going mach 10.

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by cosmicharli » Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:48:41

Quote:
>>It's planing for the sake of it. And when it's marginal, being on and off the plane just isn't fun.<<  Unfortunately, that will be the case if you go for an old longboard, too, only your threshold winds will be a bit higher.  However, I think you should try them as they don't come with much for price.  If you know how to use them, they are easier in the waves and swell because of their width and nose.  However, you'll be still in a similar position and going with a smaller sail will be a must as the new wide boards can take larger sails than they could.  Smaller sails makes it easy to tack and gybe so if you are still developing those skills, you can go out and practice with small sails on any kind of boards.

This is a quote from a previous poster which was hidden, but I thought
it worthy of putting up.  You should be able to find something long for
less than US$250, but I don't know what the WSing scene was like in
N.Z. back in the heyday.
Quote:

> Many thanks jt and others. This is very helpful. I live way down in New
> Zealand so I appreciate the offer of the longboard but fear it's a
> little far to go to pick up :-).

> At least it sounds like I'm not out of the ball park with my thinking.
> Having only started this great sport 5 years ago at 35 I have long
> suspected that if I had taken it up at 20 when it was at it's peak I
> would have been an avid longboarder so maybe that;s where this is
> coming from.

> I am considering an older longboard like the IMCO but they still
> command a reasonable price and I'm a little weary of the whole spare
> parts issue which is why the Kona appeals because it's looks fairly
> simple with not too many moving parts.

> There's not much of a racing presence here but i would race if at all
> possible. I see it more as a way to have fun on the water in almost any
> conditions up to the point I can be having fun on the 7.6 and 115L
> board, something the FF158 can't always deliver.

> We also have some nice local destinations across the harbour and
> further out to some reasonably sheltered islands which would be pretty
> cool to be able to visit.

> As said above, often is just about being out on the water, not always
> about going mach 10.

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by cosmicharli » Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:00:52

 >>I'm a little weary of the whole spareparts issue which is why the
Kona appeals because it's looks fairly
 simple with not too many moving parts.<<  There are a number of
on'line retaillers based in the states that carry plenty of old spare
parts.  Shipping isn't all that expensive for light weight items,
either.  Try to optain a Mistral board as WSHatteras.com has an
extensive collection of spare parts.  However, there isn't a lot to
worry about with older boards.  You must make sure a modern foot will
fit, although I converted a brand specific base to a modern cup for my
first board.  If you have an operable fit for the foot to the board, a
dagger that is retractable, and a fin that solidly fits the box, and
footstraps you will not regret it.  I've made footstrap covers myself
and put them on older pre-adjustable and screw-in straps.  However, if
you have good inserts in your board, you can put new straps on it.
Sets sell on E-bay often for less than $30.  You can still optain old
A-box fins in large sizes on E-bay, too.

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by Nick Co » Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:02:04

Here in Canada at Toronto Windsurfing Club, longboards still rule the fleet.
We have a VERY active longbaord fleet and can often get out 15-20 people on
longboards for a Wed. night race. Many have chosen to put the new RS-X sail
(9.5) on their boards while others have gone even larger (10.0). Very often
these guys find that they can plane in under 12.0 knots. But when it comes
to winning races what was proven very clearly this year is that it's not the
equipment you have but sailor skill, since the top two racers in the club
this season won with 7.5's. The longboard is still a hugely popular board
here since we get very light and fluky winds for a lot of the summer and the
board just extends your time on the water and in sub-planing conditions it
is a whole lot more fun than slogging around on a wide board. A lot of
beginners love to board too since it gives them confidence going upwind.
Although when making the transition from a wide board back to a longboard
even for seasoned sailors it can prove interesting at times (especially when
gybing at speed - watch that first step!!)

Cheers,

Nick Cox


Quote:
> Many thanks jt and others. This is very helpful. I live way down in New
> Zealand so I appreciate the offer of the longboard but fear it's a
> little far to go to pick up :-).

> At least it sounds like I'm not out of the ball park with my thinking.
> Having only started this great sport 5 years ago at 35 I have long
> suspected that if I had taken it up at 20 when it was at it's peak I
> would have been an avid longboarder so maybe that;s where this is
> coming from.

> I am considering an older longboard like the IMCO but they still
> command a reasonable price and I'm a little weary of the whole spare
> parts issue which is why the Kona appeals because it's looks fairly
> simple with not too many moving parts.

> There's not much of a racing presence here but i would race if at all
> possible. I see it more as a way to have fun on the water in almost any
> conditions up to the point I can be having fun on the 7.6 and 115L
> board, something the FF158 can't always deliver.

> We also have some nice local destinations across the harbour and
> further out to some reasonably sheltered islands which would be pretty
> cool to be able to visit.

> As said above, often is just about being out on the water, not always
> about going mach 10.

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by rod. » Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:02:07

We have, or had, a reasonably active IMCO group here so other than the
Kona that would be my most likely alternative.

I have worked out that I can get a fully rigged IMCO for about 70% of
the cost of a new Kona board.

My other thought was that if I assume I can be on my 115L board and 7.6
at around 12 knots then the whole longboard idea becomes a non-planing
option, as neither the Kona or IMCO, from my understanding would plane
much below that with my 9m.

Therefore I might be better off going for the best non-planing board -
IMCO

But the Kona sure does look perdy :-)

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by rod. » Wed, 08 Nov 2006 07:49:53

Just to inform those who gave advice above I ended up buying a
Ko***le, the EVA covered Exocet longboard.

I have only spent a couple of hours on it so far but it looks like it's
going to be a great board. Both sessions have been in conditions where
I wouldn't have gone out on either my 115L freeride or FF158, once due
to wind direction and distant wind line and once due to lack of wind.
Both sessions on the Kona were enjoyable and I see this as a big plus
for the board, turning bad or no sessions into something more.

It is heavy for sure, and in powered 7.6 conditions I'd probably rather
be on the 115L board for B&F sailing at my flat water spot. I haven't
used it yet with my 9m due to curent lack of a 490 mast but hope to do
so soon with good results I'm sure.

I'd say the key word is versatile, and can see it being used with my
6.4/7.6 and 9m in all sorts of conditions.

 
 
 

Wide board vs Longboard under 12 knots

Post by NC/M » Wed, 08 Nov 2006 08:51:56

We are looking forward to pictures of you doing rail rides too!


Quote:
> Just to inform those who gave advice above I ended up buying a
> Ko***le, the EVA covered Exocet longboard.

> I have only spent a couple of hours on it so far but it looks like it's
> going to be a great board. Both sessions have been in conditions where
> I wouldn't have gone out on either my 115L freeride or FF158, once due
> to wind direction and distant wind line and once due to lack of wind.
> Both sessions on the Kona were enjoyable and I see this as a big plus
> for the board, turning bad or no sessions into something more.

> It is heavy for sure, and in powered 7.6 conditions I'd probably rather
> be on the 115L board for B&F sailing at my flat water spot. I haven't
> used it yet with my 9m due to curent lack of a 490 mast but hope to do
> so soon with good results I'm sure.

> I'd say the key word is versatile, and can see it being used with my
> 6.4/7.6 and 9m in all sorts of conditions.