Sport Today

I'm looking for a very large sail for light wind lake sailing.  Does anyone
know of a used 11.0 sail
for sail anywhere?  I'd like to combine this with a large board like the
Mistral Equip.

Mark Eichman

Just curious,why don't you buy a catamaran for wind that light?

Check out Aerotech sails, your local shop should be able to get one for you.
Aerotech is  located in Florida and they have a niche  specialty  in the large
sail catagory.  They are reasonably priced and of good quality, I would
recommend either a new sail or one that is not more than about three years old.
Also consider you may need a new mast(length and stiffness) and booms(length
and stiffness) to accomodate this size sail, check the sail measurements and
match them against your equipment before you order.

Re:"Just curious,why don't you buy a catamaran for wind that light?

Same reason you don't buy a catamaran for high wind; would rather be
windsurfing than sitting on a boat..."

Wouldn't a cat be more fun than windsurfing  -- or at least equal to it -- in
wind that requires an 11m sail? I must answer that one when I move to a
lakeshore one day. After all, isn't standing on perfectly flat water moving
along at 15 mph about the same thrill as standing on a golf course -- or a
parking lot -- in a 15 mph breeze?

I'd like to know BEFORE I buy an 11-meter rig or a catamaran. Flying a hull or
pointing WAY upwind looks like more fun. Heck, even a power boat or jet-ski
LOOKS like more fun on glass (but isn't, for long).

Mike \m/

Right on! Thats why I even bothered to comment. From what I have experienced,
catamaran sailing is way more fun, faster, efficient and sociable than trying to
uphaul an 11.0m2 sail in 5-10mph wind. You are going to end up with a bad back or
a hernia. I enjoy light air surf sailing, I can "bob" with the best of them, my
8'7" tri-fin wave board and 5.8m2 Northwave surf sail can get me on a plane in
13mph wind, which is all I need to catch waves, as long as I can shlog out.
Sailboats or Hobie cats or Prindles can be picked up relatively cheap. Many
serious windsurfers also sail boat hulls,hell, I know of several that don't even
windsurf anymore,even though they used to compete and even manufacture sails, it's
fun and challenging. Hell of a lot more fun than playing goof (misspelled
intentionally). Don't get me wrong, I like to windsurf as much as the next
person,but as Mr. Natural always said "get the right tool to do the job right".
Does an 11.0m2 sail cost twice as much as 2 5.5m2 sails? Not to mention rigging
kit.(20' mast/ 10' boom?) Like I said, just curious..........

re: Wouldn't a cat be more fun than windsurfing  -- or at least equal to
it -- in

re: After all, isn't standing on perfectly flat water moving

I too am interested in feedback on the Aerotech 11.0m sails. I wish
North would come out with a North Pyro 11.0m!

~Jamie N

What do you hope to gain with an 11.0 over say an 8.5.
I hope you are about 6'6" tall or greater and weigh way over 200 lbs.
Maybe I don't have a very good appreciation for large sailors problems,
but at 155 lbs 5' 6" tall, I can get going on a longboard in 6mph winds
qiote easily on a 7.5, and can plane on the 305 Thommen with a drafty
8.5 like the North Pyro or the Sailworks Retro.
Sure, if you are course racing, and want to run in the open class you are
going to run up against huge guys like Mike Adiar or*** Blackmer that
really need an 11.0 to kinda even things out, but for recreational
sailing, in any wind speed above 6 mph, I'd think and 8.5 would be a better
be.
Bigger is not necessarily faster, and these huge sails run out of gas (or
you run out of control) at something like 12-15 mph. so for your gusty lake
conditions, you might be alot better off with something a bit smaller that
will have a range up to around 18-20 windspeed.
Also, these huge sails are very heavy, very hard to uphaul (that's one of
the reasons*** Blackmer invented his EZ Uphualing device, as he is just a
very big very tall man, and he was hurting his back uphauling 11.0 sails).
Oh, and unless you are Andy Brandt, or maybe Kent Marinkovic you can
basically forget about waterstarting one of the huge suckers within their
designed windrange.
I've sailed some 9.0's 10.0's and one 11.0 in my career, and they weren't
much fun, and didn't show me much in terms of performance.
Get a good light drafty  7.-5- 8.5, and you will double your sailing time
in less than 12 mph (unless you are a really big guy).
Based on my recent tests, I'd suggest an 8.5 Retro Raceboard, or North
Pyro. Both of these sails will get a longboard going (not planing, cause
longboards don't really plane until the winds up around 12 mph min.)
in 6 mph, and I doubt that an 11.0 would decrease the "fun sailing"
threshold by more than 1 mph max.
If you really want fun, "planing" saiing in under 12 mph, you need to look
at the new huge wide "early planing specific" shortboards (ie 305 Thommen;
AHD 310). These boards will plane, even with a big sailor, down around 8-9
mph, and if finessed enough, maybe as much as 2 mph earlier.
If you are intending to go longboard racing, and want to practice on your
lake, then I'd suggest a Superlight II with the class association 7.4
Mistral sail.
If you want to go open class, then an Imco and an 8.5 is about the right
call.
The above IMHO, and I'm sure there will be several others.

sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
F2/North Sails/ True Ames/Rainbow|Ph#in NC 919-995-3204
US Sail Lvl 1 WS Instructor

When its that light its nice to go exploring; rather than zooming along,
concentrating on technique, monitoring conditions for gusts, etc. etc.

I guess it all really depends on whether you would enjoy a more leisurely
sail...

Personally, I have a fairly big windsurfing sail (9.2 M) and I am keeping an
eye out for a small catamaran (for 2 up cruising) so I enjoy both.

Another point to consider, unless you live beside water, you have the
added hassle of towing, launching, storing the cat.

 Steve.

--
 "The surest sign that intelligent life exists else-  | 67 Firebird Convert.
  where in the universe is that it has never tried to | 82 Seca 650 Turbo  
  contact us" (Bill Watterson)                        | 76 XL250, 77 XL175
 Web site: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2562   | 88 Ford F150 HD

I often enjoy sailing out in the lake beside my house in real light air
conditions.  Maybe 0 to 5
mph winds.  I'll use my old Mistral 8.5 on a Mistral Pandera long board.
It's a lot of fun
to glide effortlessly along very smooth water, especially in the early
mornings.  Very pretty and
enjoyable.

I friend I often sail with uses a smaller 6.0 sail (he's 78 yrs old) .  Of
course I glide right by him.
He is my speed reference on how fast my rigs are.  He never changes setups.
I always tried
to imagine how much more speed I could get on those days with an 11.0 sail
on an even lighter
board.  The 8.5 sail is very easy for me to deal with in these winds, so
thought that the 11.0
wouldn't be that much more effort.  Sure I'm not to big, 150 lbs and 5'6",
but so far I haven't had
any back ache or trouble handling the 8.5 in winds < 10 mph.

I grew up sailing sailboats.  I've sailed many types, in many conditions and
locations.  I still sail
a Catalina 25 I keep out in the marina and have a small 11' sailing dingy.
Windsurfing in light
air is still much more of a thrill than regular sail boats will ever be for
me:)  I just enjoy
what feels like a great horsepower to weight ratio!!!

Sure I enjoy ripping at Rio Vista in high winds with smaller sails, extreme
light air sailing is
a blast all in it's own.

Mark

Re:"Could you clarify, would that be enough wind to be planing with the 11m ?"

From what others have said here, I'd guess 15 mph winds (a few little
whitecaps) would be too much wind for an 11m sail for most people. I sure don't
plan to find out.

Re:"Another point to consider, unless you live beside water, you have the
added hassle of towing, launching, storing the cat."

Excellent point. I hadn't thought of picking my property with a dock as a
priority. But western lakes are used for irrigation, so their water levels vary
dramatically with the seasons. That probably explains why I see no private
docks even at our biggest lake.

Re:"I always tried to imagine how much more speed I could get on those days
with an 11.0 sail on an even lighter board [in 0-5 mph winds]."

Just as in heaver wind, hull design counts MUCH more than hull weight in speed.
A hull designed for early planing could be planing once that 5 turns into ....
what .... 6-7 mph at your 150 pounds?

Mike \m/
Never Leave Wind To Find Wind

Just as I suspected, Roger. A 9.0 ultra-efficient race sail on a
super-ultralight well designed hull should get most sailors planing in wind that
light. (Are those slightcaps or did someone toss some styrofoam cups in the
water?). I think I would rather be towed behind a boat freeboarding on a
surfboard or wakeboard than trying to plane in suboptimal conditions
Isn't 8mph really the lower threshold of sailboarding (as opposed to
windsurfing,surfsailing, wavesailing,swerving, and B&J)
for it to be any fun? Right this second in Santa Barbara, Ledbetter Beach is
indicating 13ave.(7-16mph) on the windtalker ,Leo Carillo is averaging 17mph and
it's not even noon yet!. It's very steady,flat water and sal***er buoyancy to
boot and no blowboarder is out. Am I missing something? I surfed this morning
and these conditions seem optimal for the light weights with the appropriate
kit, but it's the catamaran fleet that is out there having a field day!  I'll
stick by my original synopsis, catamarans are much faster in light air than
sailboarders. Those sailcraft are ripping!!!! Hopefully Ventura will thermal

70deg.
I nominate El Nino for an Academy Award......

O.K. You guys finally got to me here.
The "misconceptions" are running rampant again.
Jamie:
If the 8.5 Pyro will get your old Bic Wing or you Alpha going in about 9-11
mph windspeed, then my personal experience with huge sails would indicate
to me that an 11.0 Aerotech/10.7 NP VX/ whatever 9.0 m2 + sail you might
get will probably get your Bic and your Alpha going perhaps 1-2 mph sooner.
BUT you wil pay a huge price on the other end.
#1 It will be heavy!
#2 It will have huge draft, and unbelievably poor "overpowered"
performance. I define overpowering  conditions for a 9.0+ sail as somewhere
in the 14-17 mph windspeed range.
The 8.5 Pyro, in my personal experience, will go up to around 20 if you
downhaul and outhaul it to the max.
But the BIGGEST misconception here is that you will have fun sailing this
monster in anything above 12 mph. At around 12 mph, the 10+ sail will have
way too much draft, and if you pull all that draft out, in an attempt to
extend it's range, it will become quite unstable and hard to sail.
 At 10 mph, unless you are a really really large person, say over 220 lbs
and over 6' 4" tall.  a 7.5-8.5 sail will be faster, more fun, have alot
more range so you don't get your ***kicked in every gust.
These huge sails have been on the market for years, but were designed for
two purposes really.
#1 Good performance in races for huge guys like*** Blackmer/ Mike Adair.
These guys are both quite fit, but are just huge guys. I get around either
of them and it's like I come up to theirt waist or something. They really
need the huge sails as an "equalizer" in course racing, and they have the
size and stamina to sail these monsters, in lite wind  racing conditions.
#2 Performance (of any kind) in the seemingly windless summers in certain
parts of the country (Fla. primarily) where the wind may not exceed 7 or 8
mph for weeks at a time, unless a hurricane shows up.

If huge sails were really all that much faster, all the World Cuppers would
be using them, but they don't go over 9.0 very often, even when the wind is
down near the minimums.
Why is this, you might ask?
Well, the technical explanation is fairly simple. It's Lift vs Drag.
Yes, huge sails develop a huge amount of lift at very low speeds, but in
order to do this they also have a huge amount of  built in drag!
The drag diminishes the  normal performance gains due to increseased
appearant windspeed, fairly early, like around 12-14 mph.
So, if you go to the expense of getting one of these monsters, and the
mast/boom/ extensions that it takes to support them you can easily tie up
$1200 bucks. For a little more money, you can get a lite air specific early
planer board, and use your 8.5-8.5 very effectively to plane in under 10
mph, and if you are a lighter, more efficient sailor, you can bring this
down in the 6-8 mph range with proper board/rig tuning/ and the right sort
of fin.
Now you have something that will be fun in under 10 and still fun at 18-20,
and if you are a bigger guy than me, maybe all the way up to around  22-24.
But, once over 15 mph, you run into the same wall again. Too much drag,
only now it's both the sail and the fin. Put a smaller fin and a 7.0 race
sail on a 305 Thomme/AHD 310/ or the other lite air specific boards, and
you can expect speeds in excess of 30 mph in around 16-18 mph windspeed.
It's your money, but every penny I've spent on having what I feel is the
best lite air planing gear, has extended my time on the water PLANING!!
buy a huge amount.

Don't have the numbers, as I was really just  trying out the new fin, but
the 8.5 Retro Raceboard/305 Thommen/50 cm  (19.5")Tectonics Spitfire, with
my little ***on it seems to be very happy planing along in 6-7 mph, but
now, with the Tectonics, I can go upwind, and due to the superb flex
characteristics of Dennis Partons CNC milled Spitfire fin, I can now "foot
pump" the board and keep it on a plane much easier and for far longer.

To the guy who just downhauls his 11.0 Aerotech and keeps on sialing into
the 20's, I think that's great, but  consider how much funner and faster in
might be on a 7.5-8.5??
.
Please think these things thru and don't let this become another
"If an 11"x 2.5"chord  fin is real good, then a 14" 3.5"`chord fin
is better, faster, goes upwind better, etc. etc."

Find a way to sail one of these monster sails, before you buy one!
Unless you are really a huge person (physically) or most of your sailing is
done in <8 mph with no gusts over 12, there is probably very little to gain
with a sail over 8.5-9.0m2

sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
F2/North Sails/ True Ames/Rainbow|Ph#in NC 919-995-3204
US Sail Lvl 1 WS Instructor

sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
F2/North Sails/ True Ames/Rainbow|Ph#in NC 919-995-3204
US Sail Lvl 1 WS Instructor

I think expanding the lower planing threshold is great but the cost
just blows me away!  
What are we talking here ... Thommen 305/8.5m2/510cm/Carbon Boom
(or equivalent) ... 1600+600+400+400 = $3000 ??
I personally can't step out and drop this kind of money on a light-air
rig with my other responsibilities.
Guess I'll have to be content with my current light-air setup which is
a 30lb mistral escape with a 6.5 (my biggest sail).  I still have
fun tooling around on it or trying to get some beginner started with
it.
Actually, I could rent the $3000 setup for $60/day (+/-) on the days
I need to plane in 8 knots ... 50 days?
Maybe there are some other sailors in Raleigh who would like to

we could have it.  I'm sure there would be lots of light days to
go around.

Don't get me wrong, I love this sport, planing or not.  Guess I
haven't sailed enough lately.  Soon to change!