Sport Today

I have my own guess, but it's no better than the next guy's. Do any of you
technical sailors, or people who can stand out in unabated wind with a wind
guage, actually KNOW -- or have an educated guess -- at what wind speed
spray starts blowing off the water at more or less sea level? Not just
blowing the water sidweways as it falls off breaking waves, but blowing
spray off non-breaking swell or chop?

I suspect cues like this, as well as the other Beaufort Scale cues, apply at
all (rational) altitudes, regardless of air density. It probably takea a
certain amount of wind force, regardless of air density changes with
elevation, to lift spray, trigger whitecaps, flutter leaves, knock yer dog
over, etc. This would make visual cues more valid sail size indicators than
measured wind speed, and may make answers to that age-old question, "What
sail size ...?" more meaningful.

Thanks.

Mike \m/
To reply directly, remove the SpamDam.

I've always equated "spray" with 35 knots of wind.

Bruce Peterson
Sailworks R+D

 Not just

That would be tough to determine since there is always going to be some chop, waves, ect., that
help launch spray.

Other than spray getting blown off of crests, I've only seen liquid smoke at Hatteras during a
noreaster when the bouys were registering gusts at 64 knots, and at Charleston, SC during the
"Storm of the Century". Both times it looked like fog. Crossing over the Cooper River Bridge in a
van when it was blowing 70 was exiting enough, but, looking down 150 feet and seeing clouds of
vapor blowing underneath was amazing. (Even have video)

Alan

club page:http://www.ibscc.org  

Wow!

Here in California at 30-32K sustained surface droplets form off the
texture, at 35K they begin to fly , at 40 one gets hit in the head and
bouncing drops pop off the 3m sails with a splat, so time to retire. At over
35K sustained its whited out for all but the megaheavies with <3m's , unless
you like to get rag dolled in the gusts and learn about shear terror trying
to waterstart without getting pinch slammed or launched. Extra heavy glass
boards rule in these conditions, the light weight epoxy stuff wants to fly
away. In 40K gust I've had my heavy kit fly away doing a double rotation
cart wheel.. then swim like whitey's after you before it gets blown again.
That is why hooded wetsuits a must for us over 40 crowd. This year is the
coldest in the past 5 with temps in the very low 50's and doing a mile swim
in in side off winds sans kit is something to be avoided at all costs but
being prepared for it a small price to pay.  Something about our low 50's
degree temperature NW winds. Seems way more powerful than any W gorge blow
at the same speed. I figured it must be air density at ~52 degrees  and
80-100% humidity adding weight to the velocity ;)

Tauras
www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/surfreport/

chop, waves, ect., that
at Hatteras during a
Charleston, SC during the
Cooper River Bridge in a
and seeing clouds of

40 MPH is where the liquid smoke starts in the
Gorge (near sea level)

--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
Starboard 288, Starboard 272 and Bailey 8'6" with
Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 Something about our low 50's

I agree. Seems a cold winter wind will power you up a lot faster than the same wind in summer
heat. I remember a prior discussion about this, as well as a discussion about sailing at higher
altitudes. Air density changes with the temperature and altitude. Since that discussion I read
on another newsgroup that air at higher altitudes may actually be warmer than air at lower
altitudes, that because of the lesser pressure the temperature readings will be lower. The
original question was: Why, if warm air rises, does the temperature drop with higher altitudes?
Apparently this explains "downsloping" and "chinook winds".

It is more difficult to tell when salty water becomes liquid smoke than fresh water. I guess the
salty air makes things look more severe. At 20 knots you can see salty-misty air blowing across
the highway. Hard to tell if it is mist or salty air.

In the 60+ knot noreaster I tried sailing my 7'11"--sub 65 liter pin tail Gorge Animal with a
3.1 Wind Wing downhauled to the max. Was able to make a few reaches. Forget about jibing! I
should've used a leash.

Wonderful thing about Hatteras is that when the Noreasters form, and things are unsailable
oceanside, you can sail in the shallow sound (if the wind doesn't blow the water too far away
from one side )

Alan

club page:http://www.ibscc.org  

We too have a small bay too, but when its so windy  the sand blowing off the
upwind dunes makes it hard to see. So we use goggles.  We have this sweet
200 yard speedy low tide channel we ride, about 6 inches off the eelgrass
shelf that goes dry on a below average low tide. Smooth as glass and a semi
broad reach so very fast but not ballistic,  pinch upwind and run the
circuit till the arms noodle.  I could use a bit of that at times the older
I get. Your knees only have so many cycles ;)

But alas our bay is in deep environmental decay between the upstream towns
reluctance to put in sewage treatment and a Duke Energy power plant
expanding at the head of the bay and cooking out the biological
productivity, upsetting tidal pyramids and depositing megatons of NOX's in
our nationally protected estuary. I was hoping to teach my kids to sail on
the bay like I did 15 years ago, but its too risky today.  Looks like our
bay might actually become a sewer in less than a lifetime :(

So its a sailing spot no more due to water quality issues.  Concerned
residents are trying to bring it back but ignorant economic inertia is hard
to redirect. Check www.plantexpansion.org for details.

Protect your waterways like you do your kids!

Low moving through clearing winds starting tomorrow :^)

Tauras
www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/surfreport/

Bring your small stuff and some thick ***, they get spring winds about
then as CA starts to fog in. Kids need a couple more years before we are
mobile again so we are shooting for 2002

This year with all the cold water around might continue to just be a windy
year... Plus I scored a new larger sail quiver so naturally it turns into a
4m year for fat people =|

Tauras
www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/surfreport/

Of course Duke is headquarted in my hometown, C***te, N.C. They have a subsidiary here called
"Crescent Resources", which basically is the largest land developer in the area. (what land
developing has to do with public utilities, other than provide a market, I'm not sure.

Our local club raised money one night to pass along to the Riverkeeper program. The Riverkeeper
program is kind of like your surf watch programs. Duke seems willing to listen to our local
Riverkeeper spokesperson, for now. I recommend this program for any inland sailors wishing to
call developers and utilities to task. The Riverkeeper program will actually sue these guys. As
windsurfers we are called upon by the Riverkeepers to alert any environmental degradation.

Duke's spokesman here is a guy who jumped in my sh*t in 7th grade science class (he used to be a
school marm) for correcting him on some basic science. At least he left teaching. But, to watch
his patronizing smile on the news here locally, justifying rate increases so that Crescent can
develop more around the lakes, makes me want to puke. Admittedly, I have several windsurfer
engineers who work for Puke, er, Duke. But, it is such a large business.  And, yes it is a
business, not the great beneficent utility that we are sold.

Let's hope so, got my fingers crossed for Pistol about mid June.

Regards,

Alan

club page:http://SportToday.org/  

I sail the ocean so knots are what I go by and sustained not peak wind
speed. 40 K sustained is well over 45 mph and gust approach 45K+ with the
colder denser air on the coast seems to pull anybody's arms out. So 40K is
max around here to be in control and still get a buzz from sailing and not
just surviving if you have a small enough sail.

I still feel a warmer dry 40K does not have the same power as colder denser
ocean air thereby creating the riff. I've sailed the gorge at 40K on a west
blow and it seemed not as terrifying as 40K on the 50 degree ocean, then
again the waves do seem to amplify reality at times ;)

Tauras
www.surfingsports.com

"Bruce Peterson" sed > I've always equated "spray" with 35 knots of wind.

Tauras sed >Here in California [droplets] at 35K ... begin to fly ,

That's two votes (actually at least 10, if we weigh Bruce's as we should)
for spray at 35 knots, which was my educated guess. Mine was based on sensor
reports ranging from NOAA to Windsight to Call of the Wind, all of which
obviously have various degrees of accuracy on the water, and from using
hand-held units with varying degrees of exposure. Out of curiosity, Id
still like to get right out in the full wind with an anemometer, and should
have an opportunity before long to do so.

But Craig sed >40 MPH is where the liquid smoke starts in the Gorge (near
sea level),

And Tauras also sed > at 40 ... its whited out for all but the megaheavies
with <3m's , >unless you like to get rag dolled in the gusts and learn about
shear terror trying to >waterstart without getting pinch slammed or
launched. Extra heavy glass boards rule in >these conditions, the light
weight epoxy stuff wants to fly away. ...

But Im pretty sure those numbers are much too low, because they differ
significantly from every wind speed source I've seen.  40 mph is pretty
common stuff in the Gorge (quite a few days just in the last couple of weeks
at 30-40 by numerous sensors), with major crowds still on the water having a
ball, whereas smoke is rare. I've seen constant liquid smoke more often in
New Mexico (3 or 4 times) than I have in the Gorge (once .... but then I
don't live there in the winter). I'd have guessed smoke lights up nearer
55-60 mph in the Gorge ... it takes more like 65-70 at 5,000 feet, according
to multiple gauges and days.

On days I'm seeing some spray lifting in the best gusts, and am powered
great on my 4.2, the sensors are reading averages at 30mph  with consistent
gusts to 40. The last day I saw smoke was in January, when my 3.2 may as
well have been a 6.0; I got across the river, but felt physically threatened
(partly by the 43-degree water in those conditions). NOAA reported sustained
wind over 60 much of the PM, with semis and homes blown over ... and that
wasnt even in the river valley which funnels the winds. The roar of the
wind obliterated conversation then even when standing out of the wind.

Yesterday, for example, saw an afternoon of consistent 28-38 mph, which was
great 4.2 but only one or two flicks of spray in sight all afternoon. That
sensor so consistently agrees with the wind on the water that we can almost
rig by it.

Mike \m/

Mike:

From a now infrequent visitor, we typically have smoke on the water at 50 + mph
in Boulder - Elevation about 5,200 feet.

Rich