Sport Today

by **zephy** » Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:28:31

Hey Guys

I'm just curious what others might think about this idea...
Not that I'm a big auto racing fan, but pretty much ever vehicle that goes
very fast has some type of spoiler to keep it tight to the ground.
well, After having a few really cool blowups this past weekend I started
thinking about a spoiler for a windsurf board.
On my *board Formula 155 when the wind is blowing 18 - 20 mph a 7.5 is a
real nice match, however, in gusts the nose can catch and the whole thing
will fly.
Actually today I played around with lifting off the water on purpose a
couple of times, that was fun. Had 2 or 3 chances to "fly" for a second or
2 with the whole board a couple of inches above the water while still
screaming along.

But, Yesterday I had a wipe out where bearing off down wind just a bit and
really sheeting in the nose caught enough wind to lift the whole board off
the water for a second or two I was flying probably a few inches off the
water, but then the board got high enough out of the water for the fin to
clear the water and that was it, the board did some type of barrel role, and
I ended up laying on top of my sail with no wind left in my lungs.

This type of thing has happened to me before, usually I get it when I head
more upwind, and the whole board comes to a screaming stop when the board
lifts pretty much straight up and down.

I realize that the nose starts to lift when a really strong gust causes you
to sheet out, and that removes mbp allowing the nose to pop up. But I was
thinking about a really small spoiler on the nose of the board to
counteract the natural lift that the nose of the board provides. Something
like this would only be applicable to a wider style board that would
normally catch a lot of wind underneath it. smaller narrower boards would
not need this type of thing. I know that some would say ride a smaller
board! but, in really gust conditions like the past 2 days, the wind would
sometimes die completely off. I did try out my 100 ltr board, but, after
blowing my tack I couldn't uphaul or water start and had to swim back. So
the wider board is necessary to "rig for the lulls"

The spoiler would be small enough that it would only push down in really
strong conditions and not force the nose down, and sink the rocker when on a
regular well powered reach, but only in the over powered conditions.

what do you all think?

by **marc rose** » Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:40:10

Hate to "spoil" your idea but I don't think it would work. If it were
large enough to have any effect on the wind it would probably castrate
you the first time you wiped out and that would not be much fun. Stick
with sheeting out. It;s a lot safer.

Marc

Quote:

> Hey Guys

> I'm just curious what others might think about this idea...
> Not that I'm a big auto racing fan, but pretty much ever vehicle that goes
> very fast has some type of spoiler to keep it tight to the ground.
> well, After having a few really cool blowups this past weekend I started
> thinking about a spoiler for a windsurf board.
> On my *board Formula 155 when the wind is blowing 18 - 20 mph a 7.5 is a
> real nice match, however, in gusts the nose can catch and the whole thing
> will fly.
> Actually today I played around with lifting off the water on purpose a
> couple of times, that was fun. Had 2 or 3 chances to "fly" for a second or
> 2 with the whole board a couple of inches above the water while still
> screaming along.

> But, Yesterday I had a wipe out where bearing off down wind just a bit and
> really sheeting in the nose caught enough wind to lift the whole board off
> the water for a second or two I was flying probably a few inches off the
> water, but then the board got high enough out of the water for the fin to
> clear the water and that was it, the board did some type of barrel role, and
> I ended up laying on top of my sail with no wind left in my lungs.

> This type of thing has happened to me before, usually I get it when I head
> more upwind, and the whole board comes to a screaming stop when the board
> lifts pretty much straight up and down.

> I realize that the nose starts to lift when a really strong gust causes you
> to sheet out, and that removes mbp allowing the nose to pop up. But I was
> thinking about a really small spoiler on the nose of the board to
> counteract the natural lift that the nose of the board provides. Something
> like this would only be applicable to a wider style board that would
> normally catch a lot of wind underneath it. smaller narrower boards would
> not need this type of thing. I know that some would say ride a smaller
> board! but, in really gust conditions like the past 2 days, the wind would
> sometimes die completely off. I did try out my 100 ltr board, but, after
> blowing my tack I couldn't uphaul or water start and had to swim back. So
> the wider board is necessary to "rig for the lulls"

> The spoiler would be small enough that it would only push down in really
> strong conditions and not force the nose down, and sink the rocker when on a
> regular well powered reach, but only in the over powered conditions.

> what do you all think?

by **Dan Weis** » Wed, 27 Sep 2006 23:14:48

Hey Zephyr: The spoiler idea is not all that misplaced. In fact, most
FW boards are designed to balance the need to release or "float" the
nose with the accompanying need to keep it from flying off into space.
Nose shape, both in terms of outline and rail shape, are adjusted to
find this balance. Lots of different companies have tried this with
decent sucess. AHD recently produced a FW board with a forked nose and
aero wing. Never sailed it, but it was designed exactly for the
reasons you discuss. I think Berky boards (no longer produced) made a
line called Pickle Fork. If you think of those "Miss Budweiser" type
racing powerboats you get the picture.

Even a wing mounted apart from the nose itself would work (castration
notwithstanding), but I suspect a better approach is to use a stepped
tail a.k.a. duck tail that could act as a wheeley bar to keep the nose
from going to high too easily.

-Dan

Quote:

> Hate to "spoil" your idea but I don't think it would work. If it were
> large enough to have any effect on the wind it would probably castrate
> you the first time you wiped out and that would not be much fun. Stick
> with sheeting out. It;s a lot safer.

> Marc

> > Hey Guys

> > I'm just curious what others might think about this idea...
> > Not that I'm a big auto racing fan, but pretty much ever vehicle that goes
> > very fast has some type of spoiler to keep it tight to the ground.
> > well, After having a few really cool blowups this past weekend I started
> > thinking about a spoiler for a windsurf board.
> > On my *board Formula 155 when the wind is blowing 18 - 20 mph a 7.5 is a
> > real nice match, however, in gusts the nose can catch and the whole thing
> > will fly.
> > Actually today I played around with lifting off the water on purpose a
> > couple of times, that was fun. Had 2 or 3 chances to "fly" for a second or
> > 2 with the whole board a couple of inches above the water while still
> > screaming along.

> > But, Yesterday I had a wipe out where bearing off down wind just a bit and
> > really sheeting in the nose caught enough wind to lift the whole board off
> > the water for a second or two I was flying probably a few inches off the
> > water, but then the board got high enough out of the water for the fin to
> > clear the water and that was it, the board did some type of barrel role, and
> > I ended up laying on top of my sail with no wind left in my lungs.

> > This type of thing has happened to me before, usually I get it when I head
> > more upwind, and the whole board comes to a screaming stop when the board
> > lifts pretty much straight up and down.

> > I realize that the nose starts to lift when a really strong gust causes you
> > to sheet out, and that removes mbp allowing the nose to pop up. But I was
> > thinking about a really small spoiler on the nose of the board to
> > counteract the natural lift that the nose of the board provides. Something
> > like this would only be applicable to a wider style board that would
> > normally catch a lot of wind underneath it. smaller narrower boards would
> > not need this type of thing. I know that some would say ride a smaller
> > board! but, in really gust conditions like the past 2 days, the wind would
> > sometimes die completely off. I did try out my 100 ltr board, but, after
> > blowing my tack I couldn't uphaul or water start and had to swim back. So
> > the wider board is necessary to "rig for the lulls"

> > The spoiler would be small enough that it would only push down in really
> > strong conditions and not force the nose down, and sink the rocker when on a
> > regular well powered reach, but only in the over powered conditions.

> > what do you all think?

by **Tom - Chicag** » Wed, 27 Sep 2006 23:29:51

Dave:

I first experienced this "blow-up" when fooling around on a very strong West
wind (due offshore) on my F175.

I was way overpowered, but I wanted to see how the pros handle big sails in
big winds (answer - better than I do). Offshore conditions are ideal,
because the water is really flat.

What I learned is that if you are way OP'd on a formula board, and you get
hit with a gust, the WORST thing to do is let up. When you let up you
release MBP and the nose starts to come up and get windage. Now if you have
ever carried your F board in 25 kts of wind, you know it is equivalent to
about a 5.0 M sail!

So, when the gust hits - bear down and translate to speed - if you let up -
you blow up.

Regarding the spoiler, I don't think it could work. Needs airflow across it
to develop downforce - and the top of the leading edge of an F board
definitely does not have decent airflow across it.

So keep the hammer down and translate those gusts to speed!

Tom - Chicago

Quote:

> Hey Guys

> I'm just curious what others might think about this idea...
> Not that I'm a big auto racing fan, but pretty much ever vehicle that goes
> very fast has some type of spoiler to keep it tight to the ground.
> well, After having a few really cool blowups this past weekend I started
> thinking about a spoiler for a windsurf board.
> On my *board Formula 155 when the wind is blowing 18 - 20 mph a 7.5 is a
> real nice match, however, in gusts the nose can catch and the whole thing
> will fly.
> Actually today I played around with lifting off the water on purpose a
> couple of times, that was fun. Had 2 or 3 chances to "fly" for a second
> or 2 with the whole board a couple of inches above the water while still
> screaming along.

> But, Yesterday I had a wipe out where bearing off down wind just a bit
> and really sheeting in the nose caught enough wind to lift the whole board
> off the water for a second or two I was flying probably a few inches off
> the water, but then the board got high enough out of the water for the fin
> to clear the water and that was it, the board did some type of barrel
> role, and I ended up laying on top of my sail with no wind left in my
> lungs.

> This type of thing has happened to me before, usually I get it when I head
> more upwind, and the whole board comes to a screaming stop when the board
> lifts pretty much straight up and down.

> I realize that the nose starts to lift when a really strong gust causes
> you to sheet out, and that removes mbp allowing the nose to pop up. But I
> was thinking about a really small spoiler on the nose of the board to
> counteract the natural lift that the nose of the board provides.
> Something like this would only be applicable to a wider style board that
> would normally catch a lot of wind underneath it. smaller narrower boards
> would not need this type of thing. I know that some would say ride a
> smaller board! but, in really gust conditions like the past 2 days, the
> wind would sometimes die completely off. I did try out my 100 ltr board,
> but, after blowing my tack I couldn't uphaul or water start and had to
> swim back. So the wider board is necessary to "rig for the lulls"

> The spoiler would be small enough that it would only push down in really
> strong conditions and not force the nose down, and sink the rocker when on
> a regular well powered reach, but only in the over powered conditions.

> what do you all think?

by **pwe..** » Wed, 27 Sep 2006 23:41:33

Quote:

> Hate to "spoil" your idea but I don't think it would work. If it were
> large enough to have any effect on the wind it would probably castrate
> you the first time you wiped out and that would not be much fun. Stick
> with sheeting out. It;s a lot safer.

How about a soft spoiler? Something like a padded nose protector -
just bigger and designed to provide some downforce.

by **marc rose** » Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:54:58

Tom,
I do not race formula boards but I have one and I used to sail it
extensively. There were many times when I did not let up as the
windward side was lifting and the next thing I saw was the leeward side
catching water and over I went. I then started sheeting out and my
board would settle down. I can understand Zephyr's desire to be able
to keep the power on while enabling board control - and I apologize for
my flippant comment- but in my hands easing up on the power stopped
many catapults while trying to hold on caused a lot of crashes.
I have also sailed it when the nose would come up high and just leaning
back and sitting down in the harness would bring the board back into a
level state. So depending on which side of the board is lifting I
would either sheet out or in.

Marc

by **Tom - Chicag** » Thu, 28 Sep 2006 01:23:56

Marc:

I don't doubt your comments at all - and mine are strictly when sailing
extremely OP'd. I use lots of other strategies when not extremely OP'd.
The thing is that when you are extremely OP'd keeping the hammer down is
just about the least intuitive of all possible solutions - but it is the one
that works best.

Also - I don't think Zephyr was talking about one rail or the other
lifting - but the nose lifting.

Tom - Chicago

Quote:

> Tom,
> I do not race formula boards but I have one and I used to sail it
> extensively. There were many times when I did not let up as the
> windward side was lifting and the next thing I saw was the leeward side
> catching water and over I went. I then started sheeting out and my
> board would settle down. I can understand Zephyr's desire to be able
> to keep the power on while enabling board control - and I apologize for
> my flippant comment- but in my hands easing up on the power stopped
> many catapults while trying to hold on caused a lot of crashes.
> I have also sailed it when the nose would come up high and just leaning
> back and sitting down in the harness would bring the board back into a
> level state. So depending on which side of the board is lifting I
> would either sheet out or in.

> Marc

by **Cliff Fros** » Thu, 28 Sep 2006 01:56:59

I have to agree with Tom on this one. When the big gusts hit you want to
sheet in, not out. If you're sailing upwind you can then go to a higher
angle of attack. If downwind you can go deeper downwind. Both of these
changes in direction will result in relief from the gust. Downwind,
however, it can be pretty d****d scary.

Sheeting in when overpowered and a big gust hits is totally non-intuitive
to me and it took me a long time to do it effectively. Well, sorta
effectively. After taking this year off I wonder if I'll ever be able
to do it again or if it's like riding a bike.

By the way, another problem Zephyr might be having is sailing with too
small a sail. I don't know the F175, but the smallest sail I use on
my Formula board is 9.0 and I (attempt to) sail that in 20+ with lots
of chop and swell (SF Bay).

So Zephyr might try the 8.5 instead of 7.5. But only with adjustable
outhaul!

Cheers,
Cliff

Quote:

> Marc:
> I don't doubt your comments at all - and mine are strictly when sailing
> extremely OP'd. I use lots of other strategies when not extremely OP'd.
> The thing is that when you are extremely OP'd keeping the hammer down is
> just about the least intuitive of all possible solutions - but it is the one
> that works best.
> Also - I don't think Zephyr was talking about one rail or the other
> lifting - but the nose lifting.
> Tom - Chicago

> > Tom,
> > I do not race formula boards but I have one and I used to sail it
> > extensively. There were many times when I did not let up as the
> > windward side was lifting and the next thing I saw was the leeward side
> > catching water and over I went. I then started sheeting out and my
> > board would settle down. I can understand Zephyr's desire to be able
> > to keep the power on while enabling board control - and I apologize for
> > my flippant comment- but in my hands easing up on the power stopped
> > many catapults while trying to hold on caused a lot of crashes.
> > I have also sailed it when the nose would come up high and just leaning
> > back and sitting down in the harness would bring the board back into a
> > level state. So depending on which side of the board is lifting I
> > would either sheet out or in.

> > Marc

by **BatFro** » Thu, 28 Sep 2006 02:28:59

Please don't take this as a flip remark, but can you guys
talk a little about why you sail such big equipment in 20mph
wind? This Sunday it was blowing 18>22 and I was fully
powered on 88litres (Mistral Stinger circa 1992) and 5.0 Ezzy.

Are you training for a formula race and just don't have the option
of a smaller board? I've got a *board175 and can't even walk
it to the beach in a 20mph wind 8^)

BF

by **Zephy** » Thu, 28 Sep 2006 02:53:40

Tom and Marc,

thanks for the replies,

Tom I've "heard" you type keep the hammer down before, and I actually
was thinking about that as I sailed, but as Marc mentioned, if the
leeward rail ever catches, man, you are toast. When you are in that
situation do you fear for your leeward rail life??
It spooks me a bit, but I try my best to trust the board not to catch.
However, If the nose is starting to catch wind and the board is above
the water, just ripping down the face of some smaller chop can alter
the level of the board compared to the water, and the nose can "bounce"
down and catch the next piece of chop that I am charging over.

Is it the shape of my board that has me fearful?
I know that newer formula shapes have a much wider nose compared with
the somewhat more traditional shapes of our older formula styles.

Dave

for the record, I haven't caught a rail in over a year, however, the
last time I did I lost a mast in the process.

by **Zephy** » Thu, 28 Sep 2006 03:02:15

Quote:

> Please don't take this as a flip remark, but can you guys
> talk a little about why you sail such big equipment in 20mph
> wind? This Sunday it was blowing 18>22 and I was fully
> powered on 88litres (Mistral Stinger circa 1992) and 5.0 Ezzy.

> Are you training for a formula race and just don't have the option
> of a smaller board? I've got a *board175 and can't even walk
> it to the beach in a 20mph wind 8^)

> BF

Bat Frog

I wish I had your curiosity..

here in the midwest where the wind is all front driven it is incredible
gusty.
swiss cheese wind. I have to sail the bigger stuff because in the
lulls you get stuck.
I did take out my 100 ltr board, but the wind died just enough to
prevent me from waterstarting, and uphauling a 7.5 on a 100 ltr board
is next to impossible. The wind was not consistent enough to go with
smaller equipment.

In Hatteras ( the only other location I've sailed where there is
consistent less holy wind) i would definitely be using smaller
equipment. however when the wind goes from dead stop to 20 back to
dead all in the space of a few minutes I'd rather rig for the lulls.

It can be blowing 20 then the gust will stop to nothing, and then 30
seconds later it will be blowing 20 again. Its much easier to handle
those kind of conditions with a larger board.
Certainly the small lake I sail on adds to the gusty conditions as
well.

Dave

by **Tom - Chicag** » Thu, 28 Sep 2006 03:04:52

I do it just for fun.

Tom - Chicago

Quote:

> Please don't take this as a flip remark, but can you guys
> talk a little about why you sail such big equipment in 20mph
> wind? This Sunday it was blowing 18>22 and I was fully
> powered on 88litres (Mistral Stinger circa 1992) and 5.0 Ezzy.

> Are you training for a formula race and just don't have the option
> of a smaller board? I've got a *board175 and can't even walk
> it to the beach in a 20mph wind 8^)

> BF

by **Zephy** » Thu, 28 Sep 2006 03:10:50

Quote:

> Hey Zephyr: The spoiler idea is not all that misplaced. In fact, most
> FW boards are designed to balance the need to release or "float" the
> nose with the accompanying need to keep it from flying off into space.
> Nose shape, both in terms of outline and rail shape, are adjusted to
> find this balance. Lots of different companies have tried this with
> decent sucess. AHD recently produced a FW board with a forked nose and
> aero wing. Never sailed it, but it was designed exactly for the
> reasons you discuss. I think Berky boards (no longer produced) made a
> line called Pickle Fork. If you think of those "Miss Budweiser" type
> racing powerboats you get the picture.

> Even a wing mounted apart from the nose itself would work (castration
> notwithstanding), but I suspect a better approach is to use a stepped
> tail a.k.a. duck tail that could act as a wheeley bar to keep the nose
> from going to high too easily.

Dan, thanks for the response, I'm going to take a look at those
boards, I'm curious.
I know as I was typing my origional post I thought that I was going to
catch a lot of flak for a hairbrained scheme.

Dave

by **Tom - Chicag** » Thu, 28 Sep 2006 03:22:00

Dave:

I only do this way OP'd with F board and big sail on flat water. I do not
have enough control or skill to do it when there is much chop.

I'm a bit confused - if I'm moving forward at 20+ kts - not sliding across
the surface of the water - what is the leeward rail going to catch on?

I have been slammed many times - but I guess I have a feel for this and
riding thru the gust (while a act of faith at first) causes far fewer high
speed crashes than sheeting out.

Tom - Chicago.

Quote:

> Tom and Marc,

> thanks for the replies,

> Tom I've "heard" you type keep the hammer down before, and I actually
> was thinking about that as I sailed, but as Marc mentioned, if the
> leeward rail ever catches, man, you are toast. When you are in that
> situation do you fear for your leeward rail life??
> It spooks me a bit, but I try my best to trust the board not to catch.
> However, If the nose is starting to catch wind and the board is above
> the water, just ripping down the face of some smaller chop can alter
> the level of the board compared to the water, and the nose can "bounce"
> down and catch the next piece of chop that I am charging over.

> Is it the shape of my board that has me fearful?
> I know that newer formula shapes have a much wider nose compared with
> the somewhat more traditional shapes of our older formula styles.

> Dave

> for the record, I haven't caught a rail in over a year, however, the
> last time I did I lost a mast in the process.

by **Dan Weis** » Thu, 28 Sep 2006 03:48:01

Dave: To add to Tom's reply, the key to avoiding *** slams on FW
gear is entirely about confidence. Confidence in your skill,
confidence in your equipment, and confidence in your tuning. Of those,
I focus on tuning and the others follow. What most non-racing FW
sailors do is to become amazed by the early planing and upwind
performance and forget that it takes something else to turn the corner
and go deep when powered up. Not saying that you don't get this, of
course.

Tons of downhaul, mastfoot position and fin selection are my three keys
to sailing effectively downwind. Lots of downhaul allows lots of twist
that keeps the nose free in chop and gusts whil allowing you to sheet
in as a means of controlling mast base pressure. (Apologies to Bat
Frog who doesn't believe in mbp ;o ) In combination with adjustible
harness lines and outhaul, downind FW sailing is much like sailing
upwind -only more sensitive to apparent wind shifts. That's where the
leech twist really comes in handy as well as reduced OH tension to
round out the entry and create a less jerky sail. If your mastfoot
position is too far forward, the board will feel slow and sticky and
you will tend to go over the bars rather frequently. If the mastfoot
position is too far back the nose of the board rides high, and it can
be tough to control in the gusts. Mastfoot position also affects how
the board behaves with respect to the fin.

Speaking of fins, a softer fin will tend to overpower smaller sailors.
A stiffer fin will be more stable throughout the power band. A fin
with more sweep will generally be easier to control going downwind as
it tends to produce power more gradually than a more vertical
orientation. Thus, combining a stiffer fin that has some sweep will
often quiet down the front of the board and add a lot of confidence
sailing powered up downwind.

-Dan

Quote:

> Tom and Marc,

> thanks for the replies,

> Tom I've "heard" you type keep the hammer down before, and I actually
> was thinking about that as I sailed, but as Marc mentioned, if the
> leeward rail ever catches, man, you are toast. When you are in that
> situation do you fear for your leeward rail life??
> It spooks me a bit, but I try my best to trust the board not to catch.
> However, If the nose is starting to catch wind and the board is above
> the water, just ripping down the face of some smaller chop can alter
> the level of the board compared to the water, and the nose can "bounce"
> down and catch the next piece of chop that I am charging over.

> Is it the shape of my board that has me fearful?
> I know that newer formula shapes have a much wider nose compared with
> the somewhat more traditional shapes of our older formula styles.

> Dave

> for the record, I haven't caught a rail in over a year, however, the
> last time I did I lost a mast in the process.

Sport Today

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?

spoilers?