Advanced board construction technique

Advanced board construction technique

Post by Tom Eberhar » Thu, 09 Feb 2006 04:20:39


Hello,
found the following article recently. It deals with surboard
construction, but it's applicable to windsurfers too. Might
be of interest to board manufacturers, but I don't have time
to track down their email addresses. Enjoy...
Tom.
http://www.TomEberhard.com

http://www.designnews.com/blog/1130000113/post/1630002563.html?nid=23...

Tuesday, January 24, 2006
Surfing On Advanced Composites

Jan 24 2006 1:16PM | Permalink | Email this | Comments (0) |
Blog This! using: Blogger.com | LiveJournal |

Surfboard manufacturing may conjure up images of a guy in board shorts
and a respirator hand crafting boards in a California garage. In
reality, though, surfboards have gone high tech. Consider, for example,
a radical new board design from Hydro Epic Inc.

The company creates its patented surfboard from advanced
composites--laminates of aluminum honeycomb, epoxy, and various
combinations of Kevlar, carbon fibers and glass. It's a surfboard
that would appeal as much to aerospace engineers as surfers.

Boat designers would find its design familiar too. Hydro Epic's
founders, Peter Mehiel and Mark Itnyre, both sailors, took some cues
from sailboat design and made their surfboard hollow like the hull of a
ship. "The composites are just a shell,"says Mehiel. "There's
about two to three inches of air space inside the board."

The hollow Hydro Epic board couldn't be more different than most
modern surfboards. For the past few decades, just about all surfboards
have been constructed from a solid polyurethane foam core stiffened by
a wood stringer and encapsulated by fiberglass. And while there have
been plenty of innovations related to board design, they have been
incremental ones. "Board shapers reached a plateau in terms of what
they could do with foam," explains Mehiel. "The foams used in
surfboards just won't allow drastic reductions in weight or
improvements in strength or stiffness."

The same can't be said for composites. Mehiel, a chemical engineer,
says Hydro Epic boards, with their hollow, air-filled centers, weigh 15
to 50 percent less than a foam core board. "We could make our boards
even lighter, but surfers like to feel some mass under their feet as
they drop down the face of a wave," he says.

More important than the weight, however, was creating a board that
"surfs better." Mehiel acknowleges that this can be a slippery
concept, since it relies on the subjective feedback from surfers riding
under constantly changing conditions. "Every wave is different, so
it's impossible to duplicate conditions the way you would in a
lab," Mehiel says.

Still, he make a strong technical case for why composite boards can
offer a performance edge. It all comes down to controlling stiffness.
Hydro Epic uses composites engineering methods--including materials
selection, fiber orientation, and rib placement--to make the boards
more flexible in their long axis.According to Mehiel, the boards offer
about 15 to 30 percent more flexibility than a comparable
foam-and-fiberglass board.In Mehiel's view, the extra flexibility,
without breaking, helps keeps more of the board in contact with the
wave at any given time, "which results in more efficient energy
transfer between board and wave."

At the same time, Hydro Epic engineers its boards to have about ten
percent more torsional stiffness than a foam board. Mehiel believes
that the extra torsional stiffness, which he hasn't yet quantified,
helps keep the board's rails in better contact with water when the
surfer carves turns in the face of the wave.

Composites have other advantages too. Mehiel notes that epoxy
composites have good tensile and fatigue strength, and they resist
chemicals and salt water. So the boards hold up to lots of abuse.
What's more, he says, the two-step molding and bonding process
inherently offers more manufacturing efficiency than the multi-step,
multi-supplier process used for foam-and-fiberglass boards.

The one downside to the use of composites has been price. Hydro Epic
sells boards for $800 to $1,250, while conventional boards usually cost
between $500 and $900. But a couple of factors do weigh in Hydro
Epic's favor. Strength is one. "Aggressive surfers might break two
or three boards a year," Mehiel says.

And then there's a foam supply disruption that has put the surfboard
industry in a panic. Clark Foam, which by most accounts supplied
upwards of 90 percent of foam blanks used by North American surfboard
makers, unexpectedly closed its doors late last year, citing pressure
related to environmental regulations. Prices for finished surfboards
shot up almost overnight. Mehiel says he's prices rise by as much as
$150 on a $500 boards. "I think the time is right for composites,"
he says.

 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by WARDO » Thu, 09 Feb 2006 04:47:11

Hi Tom,
I started trickling this info out over a year ago here on rec.dot...

WARDOG  Nov 26 2004 :

http://www.surfingsports.com/images/airframe.jpg
http://www.surfingsports.com/images/airframe_3.jpg
http://www.surfingsports.com/images/airframe_board.jpg

My friend Michael, taught the Hydro-Epic guys what they know...

May 20 2005:

 >> To avoid f**king with the layup issues associated with wrapping a foam
 >> core in cloth, simply build hollow boards and snap the bottom and top
 >> together after machining, just like a kids plastic toy.

hmmmmmmm...you mean kinda like this?...;-)
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_7.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_6.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_10.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_9.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_11.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_12.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_1.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_2.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_3.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_4.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_5.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_8.jpg

The "kinda" part, incorporates a patented Variable Flex Suspension
System using aerospace materials and technologies...we're working on
molded in fin boxes and mast tracks...boards are snapped together and
glued up, then cured in an autoclave...

The major issue is cost...these are designer boards...and the cost of
materials is increasing daily...the military has priority on
materials...rumor also is that the manufacturers are trying to dry up
the market...

Someone said here recently that windsurfers are cheap...that's just the
tip of the iceberg...;-)

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

Quote:

> Hello,
> found the following article recently. It deals with surboard
> construction, but it's applicable to windsurfers too. Might
> be of interest to board manufacturers, but I don't have time
> to track down their email addresses. Enjoy...
> Tom.
> http://www.TomEberhard.com

> http://www.designnews.com/blog/1130000113/post/1630002563.html?nid=23...

> Tuesday, January 24, 2006
> Surfing On Advanced Composites

> Jan 24 2006 1:16PM | Permalink | Email this | Comments (0) |
> Blog This! using: Blogger.com | LiveJournal |

> Surfboard manufacturing may conjure up images of a guy in board shorts
> and a respirator hand crafting boards in a California garage. In
> reality, though, surfboards have gone high tech. Consider, for example,
> a radical new board design from Hydro Epic Inc.

> The company creates its patented surfboard from advanced
> composites--laminates of aluminum honeycomb, epoxy, and various
> combinations of Kevlar, carbon fibers and glass. It's a surfboard
> that would appeal as much to aerospace engineers as surfers.

> Boat designers would find its design familiar too. Hydro Epic's
> founders, Peter Mehiel and Mark Itnyre, both sailors, took some cues
> from sailboat design and made their surfboard hollow like the hull of a
> ship. "The composites are just a shell,"says Mehiel. "There's
> about two to three inches of air space inside the board."

> The hollow Hydro Epic board couldn't be more different than most
> modern surfboards. For the past few decades, just about all surfboards
> have been constructed from a solid polyurethane foam core stiffened by
> a wood stringer and encapsulated by fiberglass. And while there have
> been plenty of innovations related to board design, they have been
> incremental ones. "Board shapers reached a plateau in terms of what
> they could do with foam," explains Mehiel. "The foams used in
> surfboards just won't allow drastic reductions in weight or
> improvements in strength or stiffness."

> The same can't be said for composites. Mehiel, a chemical engineer,
> says Hydro Epic boards, with their hollow, air-filled centers, weigh 15
> to 50 percent less than a foam core board. "We could make our boards
> even lighter, but surfers like to feel some mass under their feet as
> they drop down the face of a wave," he says.

> More important than the weight, however, was creating a board that
> "surfs better." Mehiel acknowleges that this can be a slippery
> concept, since it relies on the subjective feedback from surfers riding
> under constantly changing conditions. "Every wave is different, so
> it's impossible to duplicate conditions the way you would in a
> lab," Mehiel says.

> Still, he make a strong technical case for why composite boards can
> offer a performance edge. It all comes down to controlling stiffness.
> Hydro Epic uses composites engineering methods--including materials
> selection, fiber orientation, and rib placement--to make the boards
> more flexible in their long axis.According to Mehiel, the boards offer
> about 15 to 30 percent more flexibility than a comparable
> foam-and-fiberglass board.In Mehiel's view, the extra flexibility,
> without breaking, helps keeps more of the board in contact with the
> wave at any given time, "which results in more efficient energy
> transfer between board and wave."

> At the same time, Hydro Epic engineers its boards to have about ten
> percent more torsional stiffness than a foam board. Mehiel believes
> that the extra torsional stiffness, which he hasn't yet quantified,
> helps keep the board's rails in better contact with water when the
> surfer carves turns in the face of the wave.

> Composites have other advantages too. Mehiel notes that epoxy
> composites have good tensile and fatigue strength, and they resist
> chemicals and salt water. So the boards hold up to lots of abuse.
> What's more, he says, the two-step molding and bonding process
> inherently offers more manufacturing efficiency than the multi-step,
> multi-supplier process used for foam-and-fiberglass boards.

> The one downside to the use of composites has been price. Hydro Epic
> sells boards for $800 to $1,250, while conventional boards usually cost
> between $500 and $900. But a couple of factors do weigh in Hydro
> Epic's favor. Strength is one. "Aggressive surfers might break two
> or three boards a year," Mehiel says.

> And then there's a foam supply disruption that has put the surfboard
> industry in a panic. Clark Foam, which by most accounts supplied
> upwards of 90 percent of foam blanks used by North American surfboard
> makers, unexpectedly closed its doors late last year, citing pressure
> related to environmental regulations. Prices for finished surfboards
> shot up almost overnight. Mehiel says he's prices rise by as much as
> $150 on a $500 boards. "I think the time is right for composites,"
> he says.


 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by LeeD » Thu, 09 Feb 2006 10:07:42

  Seems it isn't what you build a board with, it's how much care and
expertise you apply when you build it.
  From an owner of over 5 Mike's Labs......

 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by Dan Weis » Thu, 09 Feb 2006 10:39:45

Hey LeeD:  I gotta beautifully crafted bar of soap shaped by the hands
of Richard Greene.  $1,500 obo.  Interested?  Believe me, it won't last
long at any price.
Quote:
>From an owner of over 5 bars of soap.

> Seems it isn't what you build a board with, it's how much care and
> expertise you apply when you build it.
>   From an owner of over 5 Mike's Labs......

 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by LeeD » Thu, 09 Feb 2006 10:59:25

  Funny dat.....
  This summer, I gave a 8'8" RichardGreene custom to a friend of mine
looking for a 84 liter fast slalom board.  Was about 12.5 lbs., 8'8" x
20.75, tuttle box, no dings, no repairs.
  At that time, I had a few fast boards in that size and sail range,
which have since been swiped off my car.......so now a hole in the old
quiv...hate to be an Indian giver....
  If you ever get a MikeZ, you'll know what I'm talking about....
 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by ratho.. » Thu, 09 Feb 2006 12:59:47

I remember there was an old Lab left over from the Gilman shop, and
when Boardsports moved to University Ave, we tried to "dispose" of that
board.  Man, that sucker was tough.  I remember whacking the rails of
that board against the corners of the dumpster, and the thing was
hardly denting.  Then Lex ran it over w/ the box van...   still
wouldn't die.

kev

 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by LeeD » Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:19:49

  Hey Kev, what's the status of the nerve problem in your upper back?
  I know you were slated for MRI, did you get the results.
  Sucks one of the better freestylers is laid up on some old man's
injury....
 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by Charles Jutkin » Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:00:34

That balck board looks wickedly The Batman Board.

Quote:
> Hi Tom,
> I started trickling this info out over a year ago here on rec.dot...

> WARDOG  Nov 26 2004 :

> http://www.surfingsports.com/images/airframe.jpg
> http://www.surfingsports.com/images/airframe_3.jpg
> http://www.surfingsports.com/images/airframe_board.jpg

> My friend Michael, taught the Hydro-Epic guys what they know...

> May 20 2005:


> >> To avoid f**king with the layup issues associated with wrapping a foam
> >> core in cloth, simply build hollow boards and snap the bottom and top
> >> together after machining, just like a kids plastic toy.

> hmmmmmmm...you mean kinda like this?...;-)
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_7.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_6.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_10.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_9.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_11.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_12.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_1.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_2.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_3.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_4.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_5.jpg
> http://surfingsports.com/images/airframe_8.jpg

> The "kinda" part, incorporates a patented Variable Flex Suspension
> System using aerospace materials and technologies...we're working on
> molded in fin boxes and mast tracks...boards are snapped together and
> glued up, then cured in an autoclave...

> The major issue is cost...these are designer boards...and the cost of
> materials is increasing daily...the military has priority on
> materials...rumor also is that the manufacturers are trying to dry up the
> market...

> Someone said here recently that windsurfers are cheap...that's just the
> tip of the iceberg...;-)

> WARDOG
> http://surfingsports.com


>> Hello,
>> found the following article recently. It deals with surboard
>> construction, but it's applicable to windsurfers too. Might
>> be of interest to board manufacturers, but I don't have time
>> to track down their email addresses. Enjoy...
>> Tom.
>> http://www.TomEberhard.com

>> http://www.designnews.com/blog/1130000113/post/1630002563.html?nid=23...

>> Tuesday, January 24, 2006
>> Surfing On Advanced Composites

>> Jan 24 2006 1:16PM | Permalink | Email this | Comments (0) |
>> Blog This! using: Blogger.com | LiveJournal |

>> Surfboard manufacturing may conjure up images of a guy in board shorts
>> and a respirator hand crafting boards in a California garage. In
>> reality, though, surfboards have gone high tech. Consider, for example,
>> a radical new board design from Hydro Epic Inc.

>> The company creates its patented surfboard from advanced
>> composites--laminates of aluminum honeycomb, epoxy, and various
>> combinations of Kevlar, carbon fibers and glass. It's a surfboard
>> that would appeal as much to aerospace engineers as surfers.

>> Boat designers would find its design familiar too. Hydro Epic's
>> founders, Peter Mehiel and Mark Itnyre, both sailors, took some cues
>> from sailboat design and made their surfboard hollow like the hull of a
>> ship. "The composites are just a shell,"says Mehiel. "There's
>> about two to three inches of air space inside the board."

>> The hollow Hydro Epic board couldn't be more different than most
>> modern surfboards. For the past few decades, just about all surfboards
>> have been constructed from a solid polyurethane foam core stiffened by
>> a wood stringer and encapsulated by fiberglass. And while there have
>> been plenty of innovations related to board design, they have been
>> incremental ones. "Board shapers reached a plateau in terms of what
>> they could do with foam," explains Mehiel. "The foams used in
>> surfboards just won't allow drastic reductions in weight or
>> improvements in strength or stiffness."

>> The same can't be said for composites. Mehiel, a chemical engineer,
>> says Hydro Epic boards, with their hollow, air-filled centers, weigh 15
>> to 50 percent less than a foam core board. "We could make our boards
>> even lighter, but surfers like to feel some mass under their feet as
>> they drop down the face of a wave," he says.

>> More important than the weight, however, was creating a board that
>> "surfs better." Mehiel acknowleges that this can be a slippery
>> concept, since it relies on the subjective feedback from surfers riding
>> under constantly changing conditions. "Every wave is different, so
>> it's impossible to duplicate conditions the way you would in a
>> lab," Mehiel says.

>> Still, he make a strong technical case for why composite boards can
>> offer a performance edge. It all comes down to controlling stiffness.
>> Hydro Epic uses composites engineering methods--including materials
>> selection, fiber orientation, and rib placement--to make the boards
>> more flexible in their long axis.According to Mehiel, the boards offer
>> about 15 to 30 percent more flexibility than a comparable
>> foam-and-fiberglass board.In Mehiel's view, the extra flexibility,
>> without breaking, helps keeps more of the board in contact with the
>> wave at any given time, "which results in more efficient energy
>> transfer between board and wave."

>> At the same time, Hydro Epic engineers its boards to have about ten
>> percent more torsional stiffness than a foam board. Mehiel believes
>> that the extra torsional stiffness, which he hasn't yet quantified,
>> helps keep the board's rails in better contact with water when the
>> surfer carves turns in the face of the wave.

>> Composites have other advantages too. Mehiel notes that epoxy
>> composites have good tensile and fatigue strength, and they resist
>> chemicals and salt water. So the boards hold up to lots of abuse.
>> What's more, he says, the two-step molding and bonding process
>> inherently offers more manufacturing efficiency than the multi-step,
>> multi-supplier process used for foam-and-fiberglass boards.

>> The one downside to the use of composites has been price. Hydro Epic
>> sells boards for $800 to $1,250, while conventional boards usually cost
>> between $500 and $900. But a couple of factors do weigh in Hydro
>> Epic's favor. Strength is one. "Aggressive surfers might break two
>> or three boards a year," Mehiel says.

>> And then there's a foam supply disruption that has put the surfboard
>> industry in a panic. Clark Foam, which by most accounts supplied
>> upwards of 90 percent of foam blanks used by North American surfboard
>> makers, unexpectedly closed its doors late last year, citing pressure
>> related to environmental regulations. Prices for finished surfboards
>> shot up almost overnight. Mehiel says he's prices rise by as much as
>> $150 on a $500 boards. "I think the time is right for composites,"
>> he says.

 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by Dan Weis » Thu, 09 Feb 2006 23:49:42

LeeD, Glad you caught the humor!

Mike Z makes sick sticks, that's for sure.  I sailed a custom Z course
board several years ago (pre formula) and it ripped.  I'd love to get
on one of his small shapes one day!

 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by LeeD » Fri, 10 Feb 2006 03:03:09

  When he was making boards for the Pritchard bros, he was making them
right at 9 lbs for slalom board 9' long and 22.5 wide.
  Friend Linda Moser, a great racer when she doesn't have baby duty,
has one of those.....really strong, hard to dent or ding.
 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by Craig Goudi » Fri, 10 Feb 2006 03:12:56

Gotta Agree,

I had a 99 Mike's lab Slalom board in about the 95 Ltr range.  Probably the
fastest board
I've ever ridden.  Had a GEM slalom board also.  Close runner up, but I
delamed the
whole bottom of it (maybe 12 pound slalom boards aren't made for multiple
big jumps eh).

-Craig


Quote:
>  Funny dat.....
>  This summer, I gave a 8'8" RichardGreene custom to a friend of mine
> looking for a 84 liter fast slalom board.  Was about 12.5 lbs., 8'8" x
> 20.75, tuttle box, no dings, no repairs.
>  At that time, I had a few fast boards in that size and sail range,
> which have since been swiped off my car.......so now a hole in the old
> quiv...hate to be an Indian giver....
>  If you ever get a MikeZ, you'll know what I'm talking about....

 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by LeeD » Fri, 10 Feb 2006 04:16:32

  Just carbon fiber cloth.
  In the real world, it would delam quickly, and get too hot for you to
touch, in sunlight.
  They paint them white for a reason.
 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by ratho.. » Fri, 10 Feb 2006 05:50:37

Quote:

> Hey Kev, what's the status of the nerve problem in your upper back?
>   I know you were slated for MRI, did you get the results.
>   Sucks one of the better freestylers is laid up on some old man's
> injury....

Hey LeeD,

Thanks for asking.  It seems to be getting better.  I actually never
got an MRI, b/c all the other people I went to said that my condition
didn't sound like a herniated disk (even though that's what the first
two doctors said).

Anyway, it seems to be getting better.  I've actually windsurfed twice
in the last two weeks, and it hasn't gotten any worse :-D

However, my 2nd session (Saturday at Bodega), was cut short after I ran
aground on a sand bar.  I guess I was so e***d to be windsurfing
again, I forgot about the sandbars :-(

Actually, that's not totally true.  I was being mindful of the
sandbars, but the tide was over 4ft, so the bars usually aren't a
problem, and I had only an 8" fin.  Usually, you can see the sand bars
b/c the water texture changes, but it was late in the day, and the sun
was already down...  my excuses for basically being a moron.

cracked open the nose of my board, cracked the mast clamp on my boom,
and sprained my ankle pretty good (was on crutches the next morning).
However, a lot of R.I.C.E. and I'm walking fine again... just a little
sore.  nothing broken that can't be easily fixed.

Waiting for that next blow.

kev

 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by Dan Weis » Fri, 10 Feb 2006 06:51:29

Kev:  Your crash resembles one of mine, but absent the body damage.
Broke my FW board almost clear through running down the length, snapped
the arm of my race boom, and broke 3 tube battens just for good
measure.  Oh yeah, the board gained about 100 lbs from all the water.
Great thing was that Fiberspar warranteed the boom as it was, according
to them, the only break of an arm located at the end, not at the head
or straps.  Gaastra sent me free replacement battens.  Nice guys all
around.  And, the nose of the board was so toasted that I opened the
entire thing up and got it bone dry.  Light and tight as new, if not as
shiny.

Hope your back gets better.  Do you plan to do Windfest CC this year?

-Dan

 
 
 

Advanced board construction technique

Post by Matt » Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:09:03

Hey Kevin,

Forgive me for giving ya some unsolicited medical advice, especially if you
already know it.  For all I know you could be an orthopaedic surgeon.  I
just wanted to share what I learned after ripping several ligaments in my
right ankle 2 years ago.

I'm assuming that you suffered a major sprain (~grade 2) if you had to be on
crutches.  To decrease the chances of future chronic instability, avoid
spraining your ankle for at least six weeks.  Right now your body is laying
down scar tissue, stem cells that will grow into new ligament tissue, and a
new *** vessel network. This process can be permanently interupted by a
subsequent sprain.  Walking and putting as much weight on the ankle as it
can bear is an important part of the healing process.

My injury use to be an automatic surgery 5-7 years ago.  However, it has
been established that the body can repair this type of ankle damage with the
same success rate as surgery.

Best of luck to you.  Hope your back as well as your ankle heals well.  And
again, sorry if you know this already.
Matt


Quote:


>> Hey Kev, what's the status of the nerve problem in your upper back?
>>   I know you were slated for MRI, did you get the results.
>>   Sucks one of the better freestylers is laid up on some old man's
>> injury....

> Hey LeeD,

> Thanks for asking.  It seems to be getting better.  I actually never
> got an MRI, b/c all the other people I went to said that my condition
> didn't sound like a herniated disk (even though that's what the first
> two doctors said).

> Anyway, it seems to be getting better.  I've actually windsurfed twice
> in the last two weeks, and it hasn't gotten any worse :-D

> However, my 2nd session (Saturday at Bodega), was cut short after I ran
> aground on a sand bar.  I guess I was so e***d to be windsurfing
> again, I forgot about the sandbars :-(

> Actually, that's not totally true.  I was being mindful of the
> sandbars, but the tide was over 4ft, so the bars usually aren't a
> problem, and I had only an 8" fin.  Usually, you can see the sand bars
> b/c the water texture changes, but it was late in the day, and the sun
> was already down...  my excuses for basically being a moron.

> cracked open the nose of my board, cracked the mast clamp on my boom,
> and sprained my ankle pretty good (was on crutches the next morning).
> However, a lot of R.I.C.E. and I'm walking fine again... just a little
> sore.  nothing broken that can't be easily fixed.

> Waiting for that next blow.

> kev