Twin-fin designs

Twin-fin designs

Post by windsofa » Fri, 25 Aug 2000 04:00:00


I'm wondering about twin-fin designs. For the Techno 293, Bic claims it's 2
28 cms are equivalent to a single 50 cm. Any hydrodynamic or fin experts
want to support or refute Bic's statement:

"Two high performances [sic] 28cm fins are as fast as a unique 50cm.
Benefits :  increased maneuverability and a more stable position for a
minimum loss in the upwind."

Also, I'm curious whether one might consider replacing the stock 28s with
smaller (high wind?) or larger (light wind?) fins and what the effect would
be.

Jeff

 
 
 

Twin-fin designs

Post by Jerry McEwe » Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:11:39

I'm switching to 4) 14" 'ers~!



Quote:
>I'm wondering about twin-fin designs. For the Techno 293, Bic claims it's 2
>28 cms are equivalent to a single 50 cm. Any hydrodynamic or fin experts
>want to support or refute Bic's statement:

>"Two high performances [sic] 28cm fins are as fast as a unique 50cm.
>Benefits :  increased maneuverability and a more stable position for a
>minimum loss in the upwind."

>Also, I'm curious whether one might consider replacing the stock 28s with
>smaller (high wind?) or larger (light wind?) fins and what the effect would
>be.

>Jeff


 
 
 

Twin-fin designs

Post by windsofa » Sun, 27 Aug 2000 04:00:00

What type?


Quote:
> I'm switching to 4) 14" 'ers~!



> >I'm wondering about twin-fin designs. For the Techno 293, Bic claims it's
2
> >28 cms are equivalent to a single 50 cm. Any hydrodynamic or fin experts
> >want to support or refute Bic's statement:

> >"Two high performances [sic] 28cm fins are as fast as a unique 50cm.
> >Benefits :  increased maneuverability and a more stable position for a
> >minimum loss in the upwind."

> >Also, I'm curious whether one might consider replacing the stock 28s with
> >smaller (high wind?) or larger (light wind?) fins and what the effect
would
> >be.

> >Jeff


 
 
 

Twin-fin designs

Post by WARDO » Mon, 28 Aug 2000 04:00:00

I have been riding a 4 fin surfboard  all summer ,extremely fast and turny!
http://www.surfingsports.com/product.asp?prod=jbd_swallow
and I have logged some incredibly fun sessions on the Starboard Fish.........
hmmmmm.....Svein and Jim Drake, what do you think?

WARDOG
http://www.surfingsports.com/

Quote:

> I'm switching to 4) 14" 'ers~!



> >I'm wondering about twin-fin designs. For the Techno 293, Bic claims it's 2
> >28 cms are equivalent to a single 50 cm. Any hydrodynamic or fin experts
> >want to support or refute Bic's statement:

> >"Two high performances [sic] 28cm fins are as fast as a unique 50cm.
> >Benefits :  increased maneuverability and a more stable position for a
> >minimum loss in the upwind."

> >Also, I'm curious whether one might consider replacing the stock 28s with
> >smaller (high wind?) or larger (light wind?) fins and what the effect would
> >be.

> >Jeff

 
 
 

Twin-fin designs

Post by Peter Watkins » Mon, 28 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>I have been riding a 4 fin surfboard  all summer ,extremely fast and turny!
>http://www.surfingsports.com/product.asp?prod=jbd_swallow
>and I have logged some incredibly fun sessions on the Starboard Fish.........
>hmmmmm.....Svein and Jim Drake, what do you think?

>WARDOG
>http://www.surfingsports.com/


>> I'm switching to 4) 14" 'ers~!



>> >I'm wondering about twin-fin designs. For the Techno 293, Bic claims it's 2
>> >28 cms are equivalent to a single 50 cm. Any hydrodynamic or fin experts
>> >want to support or refute Bic's statement:

>> >"Two high performances [sic] 28cm fins are as fast as a unique 50cm.
>> >Benefits :  increased maneuverability and a more stable position for a
>> >minimum loss in the upwind."

>> >Also, I'm curious whether one might consider replacing the stock 28s with
>> >smaller (high wind?) or larger (light wind?) fins and what the effect would
>> >be.

 In theory a twin fin should be more efficient than a single fin
upwind because the water flow should get accelerated between the fins
giving the leaward fin an even greater amount of lift. There shouldn't
be any real amount of extra drag down wind. WWI aeroplanes weren't
just built as biplanes because the available technology wasn't good
enough for monoplanes.The biplanes gave better lift (for the engine
technology that was available at the time) which was useful in combat.
Why else did Manfred Von Richtofen - the Red Barron - fly a tri-plane.

 F**k knows why i'm telling you this!!!!!!!!!!!

 regards,

PS Any one who has been in this sport for a long time, in recent
years, will have been amazed at how equipment design has gone (almost)
full circle from eggs to pintails and then back to eggs again. The
only part of the jigsaw still missing is multiple fins.
 It seems like the original designers were right all along except they
didn't reallyu have the material technology (carbon,kevlar, epoxy,
G10, styrofoam etc...) available at affordable prices at the time.

Quote:
>> >Jeff

Peter Watkinson

http://www.windsurf-international.com/
http://www.pwnavigate.com/
http://you.genie.co.uk/peterw/
 
 
 

Twin-fin designs

Post by j.. » Mon, 28 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> In theory a twin fin should be more efficient than a single fin
>upwind because the water flow should get accelerated between the fins
>giving the leaward fin an even greater amount of lift. There shouldn't
>be any real amount of extra drag down wind. WWI aeroplanes weren't
>just built as biplanes because the available technology wasn't good
>enough for monoplanes.The biplanes gave better lift (for the engine
>technology that was available at the time) which was useful in combat.
>Why else did Manfred Von Richtofen - the Red Barron - fly a tri-plane.

> F**k knows why i'm telling you this!!!!!!!!!!!

Why were biplanes obsolete by WWII?  If biplanes and triplanes are so
efficient why are they only flown where handling is more important than
speed?  The idea of a multi-wing modern fighter jet is absurd.  My gut
feeling is that multi-fins are only useful in turning oriented sailing;
they'll never be faster than single fins.  

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Twin-fin designs

Post by Peter Watkins » Mon, 28 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:


>> In theory a twin fin should be more efficient than a single fin
>>upwind because the water flow should get accelerated between the fins
>>giving the leaward fin an even greater amount of lift. There shouldn't
>>be any real amount of extra drag down wind. WWI aeroplanes weren't
>>just built as biplanes because the available technology wasn't good
>>enough for monoplanes.The biplanes gave better lift (for the engine
>>technology that was available at the time) which was useful in combat.
>>Why else did Manfred Von Richtofen - the Red Barron - fly a tri-plane.

>> F**k knows why i'm telling you this!!!!!!!!!!!

>Why were biplanes obsolete by WWII?  If biplanes and triplanes are so
>efficient why are they only flown where handling is more important than
>speed?  The idea of a multi-wing modern fighter jet is absurd.  My gut
>feeling is that multi-fins are only useful in turning oriented sailing;
>they'll never be faster than single fins.

They had superior engines by WWII.

Quote:

>     -----  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web  -----
>     -----  http://newsone.net/ --  Discussions on every subject. -----
>   NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts


Peter Watkinson

http://www.windsurf-international.com/
http://www.pwnavigate.com/
http://you.genie.co.uk/peterw/
 
 
 

Twin-fin designs

Post by Mike » Mon, 28 Aug 2000 04:00:00

I wonder how true that is in very rough water, where once again control and
tracking become big issues, particularly under less-than-expert sailors.

Mike \m/
To reply directly, remove the SpamDam.


Quote:
> My gut
> feeling is that multi-fins are only useful in turning oriented sailing;
> they'll never be faster than single fins.

 
 
 

Twin-fin designs

Post by WARDO » Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:02:16

Seems like  we had this thread earlier this Summer, with  the multi-fin
advocates (me included)
spewing our religous zeal with virtue and vigor and single finners spewing
their religion as well.
(For the record, I do ride singles fins also).
We have to define the conditions to compare single vs. multi-fin speed.
Because, as Mike suggests, anyone who has used a properly designed multi-fin in
rough , water knows they give you "tiger paws" gripping and control. If you are
in control you can go very fast.
Most likely , fastest.
I remember talking to Richard Sperling ,who was a fixture on the speed circuit,
telling me how he won a speed event on his son's wave board, because of control
issues. It was very windy.
I think directional control is also very important.
And are we talking fast on a wave top to bottom, or fast on flat water?
Onshore winds or side-off?
Does not a multi-hull boat own the World speed record for sailcraft?
I am not aware that  this "rabbit" has been run by the board/fin design players
to it's completion.
Planing (wetted) surface area , fin area and sail area are all huge factors.
I recall records being set on asymmetrical sails and very specialized boards
and fins.
I have played around with asymmetry on my fin designs....60/40, 70/30, 80/20
90/10 and have settled back to 50/50 because of end user confusion as to which
side pointed outwards.
Some of the fastest surfboards I have ever owned were Bonzer 5 fins by the
Campbell Bros.
Problem was , they were to "tracky" with the keel fins and the deep concaves
created too much lift up the face of waves.
I know that by pumping my quad fin short surfboard , I can go faster than a guy
standing on a longboard single fin.
We can lose the airplane analogies, because once a motor/engine is involved all
comparisons go to hell.
Even though I have a scientific background, I prefer to do my lab work on the
water.
Touchy, feely empirically derived data is more pertinent to sailing......where
the *** meets the road vs. theoretical aerodynamics.
I have seen too many theories crumble and not hold water lately, because of
false assumptions.
With sailboard fins, I think we are talking about lateral resistance vs. upward
lift. There are many parameters to consider and compare in fin and board design
before final conclusions are drawn.
Based on my experience, sounds like a lot of trial and error still needs to be
done in this area.

WARDOG
http://SportToday.org/

Quote:

> I wonder how true that is in very rough water, where once again control and
> tracking become big issues, particularly under less-than-expert sailors.

> Mike \m/
> To reply directly, remove the SpamDam.


> > My gut
> > feeling is that multi-fins are only useful in turning oriented sailing;
> > they'll never be faster than single fins.

 
 
 

Twin-fin designs

Post by Walt » Wed, 30 Aug 2000 04:00:00

I don't know about multiple fins for high wind control but find them
interesting for the short wide lighter wind boards simply because its hard to
keep the real long fins from getting munched up coming in and out of the water.

Two shorter fins may also be interesting because of less twist than a single
long fin (which have to be doing a lot of twisting). Twist might be needed in a
windsurfing sail to handle gusts and variable wind speed with height but for
the most part, the water flow over a fin doesn't "gust" and is constant over
the length of the fin. Does fin twist reduce tip drag - don't know but the
"boats" which hold the current land and water speed records use wing sails
which pretty much don't twist and the fastest sailing vessels on land and ice
use sails which have very little twist. Two fins shorter fins is probably more
expensive than a single long fin but probably also last longer because of less
torque.

Quote:
>> In theory a twin fin should be more efficient than a single fin
>>upwind because the water flow should get accelerated between the fins
>>giving the leaward fin an even greater amount of lift. There shouldn't
>>be any real amount of extra drag down wind.

If the two fins are far apart (like on the big Bic), the above may not be
important but what about if the two fins were much closer together? Two fins
would "lower" the center of effort on the fin which might be good and who knows
what the effect on spinout would be....

Wally Hall

Quote:

> I'm wondering about twin-fin designs. For the Techno 293, Bic claims it's 2
> 28 cms are equivalent to a single 50 cm. Any hydrodynamic or fin experts
> want to support or refute Bic's statement:

> "Two high performances [sic] 28cm fins are as fast as a unique 50cm.
> Benefits :  increased maneuverability and a more stable position for a
> minimum loss in the upwind."

> Also, I'm curious whether one might consider replacing the stock 28s with
> smaller (high wind?) or larger (light wind?) fins and what the effect would
> be.

> Jeff

 
 
 

Twin-fin designs

Post by Mike » Wed, 30 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Fin twist is marvelous stuff in B&J/wave sailing. It noticeably loosens a
board for harder/tighter slashing while reducing spinout. I'd guess it
simply keeps the fin's effective angle of attack within its laminar flow
limits while letting the board range beyond that envelope, just as sail
twist lets the boom exceed angle of attack limits while the sail tip remains
within them. Sure it costs some upwind ability, but that's no big deal when
yer havin' fun.

Mike \m/
To reply directly, remove the SpamDam.

Quote:
>Twist might be needed in a
> windsurfing sail to handle gusts and variable wind speed with height but
for
> the most part, the water flow over a fin doesn't "gust" and is constant
over
> the length of the fin.

 
 
 

Twin-fin designs

Post by Walt » Wed, 30 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Yup, whats fun on the water is the bottom line..
Quote:

> Fin twist is marvelous stuff in B&J/wave sailing. It noticeably loosens a
> board for harder/tighter slashing while reducing spinout. I'd guess it
> simply keeps the fin's effective angle of attack within its laminar flow
> limits while letting the board range beyond that envelope, just as sail
> twist lets the boom exceed angle of attack limits while the sail tip remains
> within them. Sure it costs some upwind ability, but that's no big deal when
> yer havin' fun.

> Mike \m/
> To reply directly, remove the SpamDam.

> >Twist might be needed in a
> > windsurfing sail to handle gusts and variable wind speed with height but
> for
> > the most part, the water flow over a fin doesn't "gust" and is constant
> over
> > the length of the fin.