Nose Damage

Nose Damage

Post by 2 Rad Inc » Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Hello Ralf,
Nose damage on a board happens. Just look at it as a car hitting a post. Its
not warranty, it not the car's fault, and the use of any car in this manner
will result in the same damage, more or less. Anybody that damages boards
regularly, on the nose specifically, needs to upgrade his tuning, he's
probably trying to handle a little too much for his sake, or simply taking
with a lot of sail, in a lot of wind. If you have followed some World Cup
races on occasion, specifically course slalom, you see them ridding 9.0s in
20-25 knots. if you watch them closely, when they are on the verge of going
overboard (it does happen to them to when they ***up), they unhook from
their harnesses to regain control during a gust, they open up and let a bit
of air go through. Now obviously this an extreme, but nevertheless, this
type of situation should be handled in this manner.

It is normal for us common mortals to go over the handlebars occasionally.
They've invented Deviators to prevent some of the damage, but in the end ,
the riders that use it regularly damaged the mast foot box by prying it out
with the amount of leverage this type of wipeout produces on the mast foot.
There's the big word "LEVERAGE". Think about the nice hammer head coming at
the nose of your board, include leverage due to the height of the boom, add
your weight multiplied by leverage, remultiplied by the size of the actual
area that will come in contact with your board. I've had one of engineer
customers figure it out, and it came up to about 0.75 tons (1500 lbs.) of
impact pressure on about 2 sq.inches using a 6'0" 190lbs man.

Enough of the physics, all of this is to say that, no matter what board
construction, brand, or whatever else you can add. IF YOU WIPE OUT OVER THE
HANDLE BARS WELL ENOUGH TO BUST UP THE NOSE OF YOUR BOARD, YOU WOULD HAVE
BROKEN ANYTHING, FROM A BIC TO A FULL BLOWN REINFORCED CUSTOM. This type of
breakage has nothing to do with the board, but mainly with who's driving.
Maybe you've experienced this with one of your boards and busted it up, then
a few years later you changed to a new board, went over the handle bars, and
this one didn't break. IT IS NOT NOT THE BOARD THAT'S BETTER, YOU JUST
DIDN'T WIPEOUT AS HARD. Nose jobs are common, and happen everyday to the
best of us. There are less busted board noses per-capita in the US than car
accidents. At one point you have to stop blamming the equipment, and place
some of the responsibility on the driver.

Bruno

 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by Jeffre » Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
>At one point you have to stop blamming the equipment, and place
> some of the responsibility on the driver.

better tuning of the equipment might help.

if you frequently find yourself going over the handlebars it may be
because you aren't downahuling the sail enough.

If the CE of the sail is too high, and/or too far forward, the sail will
tend
to throw you forward when you loose control. Do you find that
as the sail powers up, it is yanking you up and forward, perhaps
causing you to sit down in the harness to counteract the lifting?

Increasing the downhaul will tend to move the CE lower and further
back, making it less likely that you will get thrown forward when
something goes wrong.

Some sails seem to be purposely designed with a lot of draft up
high making them particularly prone to this problem. I have found
this to be the case with some larger (~6.0) wave sails.

jeff feehan


 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by Roger Nightingal » Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:00:00

By your reasoning, the nose of an unglassed styrofoam blank (assuming
you could sail such a thing) would bust up as often as a vacuum-bagged
7 layer sandwich waveboard. I disagree with your capitalized
statements. A board with a weaker layup is more likely to get nose
damage. I do agree that all noses can be broken.

Quote:

-snip-

> Enough of the physics, all of this is to say that, no matter what board
> construction, brand, or whatever else you can add. IF YOU WIPE OUT OVER THE
> HANDLE BARS WELL ENOUGH TO BUST UP THE NOSE OF YOUR BOARD, YOU WOULD HAVE
> BROKEN ANYTHING, FROM A BIC TO A FULL BLOWN REINFORCED CUSTOM. This type of
> breakage has nothing to do with the board, but mainly with who's driving.
> Maybe you've experienced this with one of your boards and busted it up, then
> a few years later you changed to a new board, went over the handle bars, and
> this one didn't break. IT IS NOT NOT THE BOARD THAT'S BETTER, YOU JUST
> DIDN'T WIPEOUT AS HARD. Nose jobs are common, and happen everyday to the
> best of us. There are less busted board noses per-capita in the US than car
> accidents. At one point you have to stop blamming the equipment, and place
> some of the responsibility on the driver.

> Bruno

--
Roger Nightingale
Duke University
Department of Biomedical Engineering

 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by Brian Weeke » Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>It is normal for us common mortals to go over the handlebars occasionally.
>They've invented Deviators to prevent some of the damage, but in the end ,
>the riders that use it regularly damaged the mast foot box by prying it out
>with the amount of leverage this type of wipeout produces on the mast foot.
>There's the big word "LEVERAGE". Think about the nice hammer head coming at
>the nose of your board, include leverage due to the height of the boom, add
>your weight multiplied by leverage, remultiplied by the size of the actual
>area that will come in contact with your board. I've had one of engineer
>customers figure it out, and it came up to about 0.75 tons (1500 lbs.) of
>impact pressure on about 2 sq.inches using a 6'0" 190lbs man.

Sound advice in my opinion. I've found it helps to keep one hand on the boom
or mast as you wipeout, even to the point when you are under water "if you
can", reach up as you go down to cushen the impact of the boom as it slams
down- also may help with rapid waterstart recovery. Worst bit is of course
praying for no damage as you take a look at the nose afterwards!

Brian Weekes

 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by Rainma » Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:00:00

..... get a Deviator, and use it..

 R.

--
Website: www.windsurfing.cjb.net



Quote:
> It is normal for us common mortals to go over the handlebars occasionally.
> They've invented Deviators to prevent some of the damage,

 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by Glenn Woode » Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

>IF YOU WIPE OUT OVER THE
>HANDLE BARS WELL ENOUGH TO BUST UP THE NOSE OF YOUR BOARD, YOU WOULD HAVE
>BROKEN ANYTHING, FROM A BIC TO A FULL BLOWN REINFORCED CUSTOM.

...except for an old poly Tiga, or others. Those puppies are almost
indestructible.
 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by NLW TFW » Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:00:00

My newsreader won't show me the original post, so I can only presume its
content and reiterate this yet again:

I sail a LOT, often overpowered. I crash a lot (dozens of times per session if
I'm having any fun), seldom giving any care to HOW I crash. My most oft-sailed
boards are two epoxies and a poly. I HAVE NOT DINGED A NOSE IN SEVERAL YEARS
NOW because I glue a pad on the board nose and slap a clamp-on mast base pad on
the mast where it strikes the nose.

'Nuff said.

Mike \m/

 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by RMoore » Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>..... get a Deviator, and use it..

Not that impressed with the deviator you might eventually rip the deck box out
or hurt yourself on it. I have seen both things happen. I am really impressed
with the Dakine foam boom bra. Although it is no guarentee I have wacked the
nose of my protech hard with it on and has only left a little foam on the non
skid
 Lets see too big a sail, too much power, over driving off the wind, Your going
over the top.
 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by Tom B » Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:00:00

A friend of mine knocked the nose off every custom board he owned ( well
maybe a couple survived). He enjoys the fact that since he switched to
F2 and Mistral he only dents them now. And he eats it as bad as ever. I
don't think the production board noses are as thin or have all that cool
sail poking flip.

 IF YOU WIPE OUT OVER THE

Quote:
> > HANDLE BARS WELL ENOUGH TO BUST UP THE NOSE OF YOUR BOARD, YOU WOULD HAVE
> > BROKEN ANYTHING, FROM A BIC TO A FULL BLOWN REINFORCED CUSTOM.

 IT IS NOT NOT THE BOARD THAT'S BETTER, YOU JUST
Quote:
> > DIDN'T WIPEOUT AS HARD.

 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by 2 Rad Inc » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

The statement that I've made is a general one, I agree. Of course, I have to
agree that a plastic covered board (F2, Mistral, Fanatic, whatever), will
not pierce as easily (water intake), but once you've dented one of these
boards, you have to remember that the plastic joint is an integral part of
the construction, if you crack it, its straight to the foam, in fact it is a
weakness put mildly. If you dent one of these plastic boards, it is broken.
Its soft in a specific area, thus the resins and fibers are broken. The only
thing holding is the plastic. The board is busted up. At the point where you
get slammed, if you break the nose of a custom, at that exact same moment,
if you would have been on a plastic board, they all go to hell. When it
comes to scratches and dings, for the custom is weaker, it demands a certain
amount of TLC. But if we talk about important breakage; buckling, under foot
indentations from jumping, delaminated decks, stripped footstraps inserts,
busted up fin box and mast box, long term durability, i'm sorry guys, but
the plastic production aren't there apart from a couple of brands due to
specific adding and attention for constuction.
Bruno
 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by Zook » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

The Deviator will work where the boom bra will only protect (sometimes) when
the very point of the boom hits the board.  In most "over-the-handlebars"
incidents, it's not the tip of the boom causing the damage, it's about 6 to
12 inches down the boom doing the damage (because in most cases you're still
*** on for dear life).  In all fairness to the previous poster, I use
both on my Drops FL-10!


Quote:
> >..... get a Deviator, and use it..

> Not that impressed with the deviator you might eventually rip the deck box
out
> or hurt yourself on it. I have seen both things happen. I am really
impressed
> with the Dakine foam boom bra. Although it is no guarentee I have wacked
the
> nose of my protech hard with it on and has only left a little foam on the
non
> skid
>  Lets see too big a sail, too much power, over driving off the wind, Your
going
> over the top.

 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by NLW TFW » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Re:" But if we talk about important breakage; buckling, under foot
indentations from jumping, delaminated decks, stripped footstraps inserts,
busted up fin box and mast box, "

Jeez, what kind of boards are you guys USING? I've seen some of those things on
boards I've tested, but never on any board I've owned since 1980 except a
couple of fin box failures.

Mike \m/

 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by Rainma » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

.........Mike, I see this kind of damage all the time...  although I must
say that generally, boards are getting better/stronger in most areas of
construction..

I guess that the manufacturers finally realised that the windsurfing
population were too knowledgeable to accept plastic covered junk, and lifted
their game a bit..

However, I still get quite a few delamination repairs, especially with the
plastic covered boards.... but even those are improving...... slowly.

Most of the major manufacturers are using the excellent facilities available
at Cobra in Thailand  for production runs, and their [Cobra] work is
generally of a very high order.

The double foam sandwich epoxy boards from this factory are generally very
good...

 Tough, strong light and durable, with some of the best finishes I have ever
seen on 'production' boards, and very few long-term problems..

         R.

Website: www.windsurfing.cjb.net



Quote:
> Re:" But if we talk about important breakage; buckling, under foot
> indentations from jumping, delaminated decks, stripped footstraps inserts,
> busted up fin box and mast box, "

> Jeez, what kind of boards are you guys USING? I've seen some of those
things on
> boards I've tested, but never on any board I've owned since 1980 except a
> couple of fin box failures.

> Mike \m/

 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by ma.. » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00



Quote:
> My newsreader won't show me the original post, so I can only presume
its
> content and reiterate this yet again:

> I sail a LOT, often overpowered. I crash a lot (dozens of times per
session if
> I'm having any fun), seldom giving any care to HOW I crash. My most
oft-sailed
> boards are two epoxies and a poly. I HAVE NOT DINGED A NOSE IN
SEVERAL YEARS
> NOW because I glue a pad on the board nose and slap a clamp-on mast
base pad on
> the mast where it strikes the nose.

Mike, I think you're endo-patterns may be different from those that
have broken tons of noses on boards like Technos, Allstars, etc. in the
last couple of seasons. You're sailing B&J, with sails generally 6.5
and below. You rarely will end up going deep downwind, pearling (i.e.,
sticking the nose of the boards and coming to a complete stop with
momentum and true wind generating awesome force on an 8m^2 + rig and
whacking the nose full on). If you look at the vectors in that
scenario, all the forces go in the same direction. The typical B&J
wipeout usually has a sideways component to it, giving the nose that
tiny bit of margin to avoid decapitation.

Moreover, big freeride and race boards depend on not carrying a lot of
weight in the nose as they are designed to have very short rocker
flats, riding as freely as possible with very short wetted surface
area. This results in very thin noses with tremendous nose scoop;
another recipe for disaster in case the nose gets a good whack from
above. Protection (such as the pads you're recommending) will help in
marginal cases, but a full-on wipe out when going downwind on a 9.0 in
20+ knot gusts will easily take a nose off any Techno, custom
raceboard, etc.

I've seen several Technos getting creamed last season; all of them
followed the same pattern (overpowered downwind, mostly while racing or
practicing, sticking the nose). I've also seen a brandnew Mike's Lab
(probably one of the best-built customs anywhere; Zajicek's workmanship
is pretty much flawless) decapitated when the owner ran aground in the
Berkeley Marina muck on his 54 cm fin.

I'm sure Bic as well as Mike Zajicek could change the design and
construction of these boards to withstand those kinds of impacts with
only minor surface dings. Problem is, that would make these boards
worthless by either taking away necessary nose scoop or introducing
enough swingweight up front to make early planing and loose riding at
speed impossible.

The only way for people to avoid that kind of damage (or at least limit
the probability of its occurence) is to work on technique, sail
conservatively (after all, swimming is slow even when going downwind),
use protection where feasible, and make sure not to***off the
windgods.

Andreas

Sent via Deja.com http://SportToday.org/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

Nose Damage

Post by Alex Pa » Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:00:00



...

Quote:
>weakness put mildly. If you dent one of these plastic boards, it is broken.
>Its soft in a specific area, thus the resins and fibers are broken. The only
>thing holding is the plastic. The board is busted up. At the point where you
>get slammed, if you break the nose of a custom, at that exact same moment,
>if you would have been on a plastic board, they all go to hell. When it

oops, i guess i've been sailing a broken tiga all this time :-)
i've been sailing the same tiga254 for 6 years now, have over
600 sessions on that board.  i thought i finally had to replace
it back in june 1998 when i broke my mast, bent my booms, tore up
my sail, and put a huge dent (maybe foot long, 2" wide, 1/2" deep)
across the bottom of my tiga.  so far, it hasn't sunk, even after
over 100 sessions since then..     it actually makes it stick to
the water better during nukin days, and act as a speed bump to go
over the chop better too :-)

alex