Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by Jrob » Thu, 18 May 2006 04:19:37


So, I'm sittin here pondering my current quiver sizes 7.3 no cam, 6.2
cammed, 5.4 cammed and 4.7 wave, 4.7 non wave slalom and a 4.4 race (so
it says...haven't been able to use it yet).  The 7.3 is 2yre old and
the 6.2 and 5.4 are at least 10yr old...same as the 4.4 with the 4.7's
being the oldest circ.'94ish.  I'm 6'3" and 90kgs and sail the SF
Bay...wherever I can.  Winds I see when I sail are 14 ish to 34mph on
occasion.

So I'm considering if I should stay with the current stepdowns or go to
a 7.3, 5.8, 5.0 and keep the 4.4 if need be.  I don't do waves, just
blasting and bump and jump, and eventually get into speed sailing.  The
6.2 and 5.4 are older race sails and don't have a very broad range, but
are generally stable at higher speeds (3 cams).  My thinking is to get
NEWER more rangey camless sails that are stable at speed and not as
heavy as my two middle kids.  I am worried that I may miss out on some
overlap I have now if I have to jump down to a 5.8.  6.0 sounds better
to me but we're talking only .2 msq...what 3 square feet?

I have 135l, 103l (maybe soon to be 110), and 95l.  The boards aren't
much of an issue, more the sail spacing .

Thoughts?

J

 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by Glenn Woodel » Thu, 18 May 2006 04:52:35

Modern no cam sails have a very wide range. I tend to like the Ezzy SE
Waves in the smaller sizes. I do mostly bump and jump and high speed
flat water sailing.

Glenn



Quote:
>So, I'm sittin here pondering my current quiver sizes 7.3 no cam, 6.2
>cammed, 5.4 cammed and 4.7 wave, 4.7 non wave slalom and a 4.4 race (so
>it says...haven't been able to use it yet).  The 7.3 is 2yre old and
>the 6.2 and 5.4 are at least 10yr old...same as the 4.4 with the 4.7's
>being the oldest circ.'94ish.  I'm 6'3" and 90kgs and sail the SF
>Bay...wherever I can.  Winds I see when I sail are 14 ish to 34mph on
>occasion.

>So I'm considering if I should stay with the current stepdowns or go to
>a 7.3, 5.8, 5.0 and keep the 4.4 if need be.  I don't do waves, just
>blasting and bump and jump, and eventually get into speed sailing.  The
>6.2 and 5.4 are older race sails and don't have a very broad range, but
>are generally stable at higher speeds (3 cams).  My thinking is to get
>NEWER more rangey camless sails that are stable at speed and not as
>heavy as my two middle kids.  I am worried that I may miss out on some
>overlap I have now if I have to jump down to a 5.8.  6.0 sounds better
>to me but we're talking only .2 msq...what 3 square feet?

>I have 135l, 103l (maybe soon to be 110), and 95l.  The boards aren't
>much of an issue, more the sail spacing .

>Thoughts?

>J


 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by Jerry McEwe » Thu, 18 May 2006 05:07:40

Hi, seeing how many times I replaced an old sail only to find the new
one lacked low end or I didn't like it as well for whatever reason,  I
would look for sails I loved in my main sizes, then look at the same
manufacturer to fill the gaps.

You have an interesting quiver:
7.3 camless
6.2 cammed
5.4 cammed
4.7 wave
4.4 cammed

I'm betting you like cams, so why is your biggest sail no-cam? Since
almost nobody uses cams in a 4.7, why do you? Do you like that sail?
Is that you why you bought a cammed 4.4? Did you buy the no-cam 7.3
after you finally decided you were sick of cams?

'Sorry for all the questions, but after reading your post, I am
baffled.



Quote:
>So, I'm sittin here pondering my current quiver sizes 7.3 no cam, 6.2
>cammed, 5.4 cammed and 4.7 wave, 4.7 non wave slalom and a 4.4 race (so
>it says...haven't been able to use it yet).  The 7.3 is 2yre old and
>the 6.2 and 5.4 are at least 10yr old...same as the 4.4 with the 4.7's
>being the oldest circ.'94ish.  I'm 6'3" and 90kgs and sail the SF
>Bay...wherever I can.  Winds I see when I sail are 14 ish to 34mph on
>occasion.

>So I'm considering if I should stay with the current stepdowns or go to
>a 7.3, 5.8, 5.0 and keep the 4.4 if need be.  I don't do waves, just
>blasting and bump and jump, and eventually get into speed sailing.  The
>6.2 and 5.4 are older race sails and don't have a very broad range, but
>are generally stable at higher speeds (3 cams).  My thinking is to get
>NEWER more rangey camless sails that are stable at speed and not as
>heavy as my two middle kids.  I am worried that I may miss out on some
>overlap I have now if I have to jump down to a 5.8.  6.0 sounds better
>to me but we're talking only .2 msq...what 3 square feet?

>I have 135l, 103l (maybe soon to be 110), and 95l.  The boards aren't
>much of an issue, more the sail spacing .

>Thoughts?

>J


 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by Craig Goudi » Thu, 18 May 2006 05:14:14

Yup my thought is that 7.3 to 5.8 is too big a gap no matter what you're
sailing.
A 1 meter drop (like 6.8 to 5.8, or 7.3 to 6.3) is dandy.

My Gorge spacing goes 6.7, 5.5, 4.7, 4.2, 3.7, 3.2  and that works.  But,
6.7 to 5.5  is a rare working combination of variables
including wind, current and a board swap.  No cams in any of these sails,
all Northwaves.

In Utah, my spacing  is 9.5, 8.5, 6.5, 5.5, 4.7, 4.2, 3.7.  The 6.5 to 5.5
spacing is fine.  Actually, the 8.5 to 6.5
is also fine, but the 9.5/8.5 is much too close. Sailworks down to 5.5 and
Naish from 4.7 down.
I'll be picking up an 8.0 to replace the 8.5 soon.

I'm 6'3" and about 82 Kilos.

-Craig


Quote:
> So, I'm sittin here pondering my current quiver sizes 7.3 no cam, 6.2
> cammed, 5.4 cammed and 4.7 wave, 4.7 non wave slalom and a 4.4 race (so
> it says...haven't been able to use it yet).  The 7.3 is 2yre old and
> the 6.2 and 5.4 are at least 10yr old...same as the 4.4 with the 4.7's
> being the oldest circ.'94ish.  I'm 6'3" and 90kgs and sail the SF
> Bay...wherever I can.  Winds I see when I sail are 14 ish to 34mph on
> occasion.

> So I'm considering if I should stay with the current stepdowns or go to
> a 7.3, 5.8, 5.0 and keep the 4.4 if need be.  I don't do waves, just
> blasting and bump and jump, and eventually get into speed sailing.  The
> 6.2 and 5.4 are older race sails and don't have a very broad range, but
> are generally stable at higher speeds (3 cams).  My thinking is to get
> NEWER more rangey camless sails that are stable at speed and not as
> heavy as my two middle kids.  I am worried that I may miss out on some
> overlap I have now if I have to jump down to a 5.8.  6.0 sounds better
> to me but we're talking only .2 msq...what 3 square feet?

> I have 135l, 103l (maybe soon to be 110), and 95l.  The boards aren't
> much of an issue, more the sail spacing .

> Thoughts?

> J

 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by Amokama » Thu, 18 May 2006 06:06:26

Jrobb ...
The best setup on sail size spacing is to build a quiver of the same
model of sail or at least the same type with the same number of
battens.  That way you will be sure to get equal power changes between
sails.  My quiver in Ohio here is Retro 9.5, 8.0, 6.5 and 5.5 which
works great for me.  My 4.5 is a wave sail as the panels and battens in
full wave sails can withstand some surf punishment.  If it's blowing
4.5 then chances are I'm abusing my equipment. If your style involves
bump and jump sailing, I'd consider leaning more towards wave sails for
the under 6.0 size conditions.

Scott

 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by John Lechmani » Thu, 18 May 2006 09:03:26

Hey Craig,

Interestingl you would say a 7.3 - 5.8 is too big a gap.  I have a 7.5 retro
and jump down to a 5.9 Loft O2 and I'm completely happy with it.  I weigh at
185 and tend to use the 7.5 on a 125 l board for light wind (14 - 16 mph)
and the 5.9 with a 100 liter board for 17 - 20 mph.  I'm completely happy
with it.  I find when I'm overpowered in on the 7.5 I'm right in the money
on the 5.9.  Now with sails 5 - 10 years ago, I wouldn't even consider this
gap....

--
John Lechmanik

To reply directly remember to remove the NOSPAM from my address.


Quote:

> Yup my thought is that 7.3 to 5.8 is too big a gap no matter what you're
> sailing.
> A 1 meter drop (like 6.8 to 5.8, or 7.3 to 6.3) is dandy.

> My Gorge spacing goes 6.7, 5.5, 4.7, 4.2, 3.7, 3.2  and that works.  But,
> 6.7 to 5.5  is a rare working combination of variables
> including wind, current and a board swap.  No cams in any of these sails,
> all Northwaves.

> In Utah, my spacing  is 9.5, 8.5, 6.5, 5.5, 4.7, 4.2, 3.7.  The 6.5 to 5.5
> spacing is fine.  Actually, the 8.5 to 6.5
> is also fine, but the 9.5/8.5 is much too close. Sailworks down to 5.5 and
> Naish from 4.7 down.
> I'll be picking up an 8.0 to replace the 8.5 soon.

> I'm 6'3" and about 82 Kilos.

> -Craig



>> So, I'm sittin here pondering my current quiver sizes 7.3 no cam, 6.2
>> cammed, 5.4 cammed and 4.7 wave, 4.7 non wave slalom and a 4.4 race (so
>> it says...haven't been able to use it yet).  The 7.3 is 2yre old and
>> the 6.2 and 5.4 are at least 10yr old...same as the 4.4 with the 4.7's
>> being the oldest circ.'94ish.  I'm 6'3" and 90kgs and sail the SF
>> Bay...wherever I can.  Winds I see when I sail are 14 ish to 34mph on
>> occasion.

>> So I'm considering if I should stay with the current stepdowns or go to
>> a 7.3, 5.8, 5.0 and keep the 4.4 if need be.  I don't do waves, just
>> blasting and bump and jump, and eventually get into speed sailing.  The
>> 6.2 and 5.4 are older race sails and don't have a very broad range, but
>> are generally stable at higher speeds (3 cams).  My thinking is to get
>> NEWER more rangey camless sails that are stable at speed and not as
>> heavy as my two middle kids.  I am worried that I may miss out on some
>> overlap I have now if I have to jump down to a 5.8.  6.0 sounds better
>> to me but we're talking only .2 msq...what 3 square feet?

>> I have 135l, 103l (maybe soon to be 110), and 95l.  The boards aren't
>> much of an issue, more the sail spacing .

>> Thoughts?

>> J

 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by Jrob » Thu, 18 May 2006 12:22:40

Quote:

> Hi, seeing how many times I replaced an old sail only to find the new
> one lacked low end or I didn't like it as well for whatever reason,  I
> would look for sails I loved in my main sizes, then look at the same
> manufacturer to fill the gaps.

> You have an interesting quiver:
> 7.3 camless
> 6.2 cammed
> 5.4 cammed
> 4.7 wave
> 4.4 cammed

> I'm betting you like cams, so why is your biggest sail no-cam? Since
> almost nobody uses cams in a 4.7, why do you? Do you like that sail?
> Is that you why you bought a cammed 4.4? Did you buy the no-cam 7.3
> after you finally decided you were sick of cams?

> 'Sorry for all the questions, but after reading your post, I am
> baffled.

Well, couple reasons for the cams:
1)Old habits die hard.  I got hooked sailing in the late 80's early
90's when a good sail was measured by how many camber inducers it had.
I took a hyatis (sp) for bout 8 years, and got back in and been there
since.  It's been hard to break the camber mentality till bout last
year when I got my beloved Sprint(7.3 ) which is super stable...even
more so than my older 6.2 and 5.4 (these two are identical sails 'cept
the 6.2 has another panel sewn in and is slightly taller).

2) I got the three cammed sails as a lot last year for a super steal.
The sails were in great cond. being 10 yrs. old and the 4.4 got thrown
in for free.  The two twins are heavy to water start, and given  what I
have experienced sailing new camless sails, I prefer camless over cam
for what I like to do...for now.

J

 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by Jrob » Thu, 18 May 2006 12:43:15

That's what I'm worried about Craig.
  My 5.4 rigs well and I can tune it to behave nicely, but the 6.2 is
fickle...sometimes it sails perfect (buttery smooth) on starbord tack
and then all hell breaks loose on port tack.  Harness lines seem
correct...the sail just has no ummph sometimes (btw the battens and cam
access zips are on the port tack side...don't know if that has anything
to do with it or not).  I think sometimes I avoid using it and just
tune/muscle the 7.3 from 16-24ish mph on either 135l or 103l.  If It's
18-25+ or just steady 20, I can go right to the 5.4...rig it with a
belly and take out the 95l.  I seem good here up to bout 30mph and this
is where it gets interesting.  I can flatten the 5.4 and be fine
(though still a handful), but I need a smaller fin 29cm above 30mph.
The 32 I have for it will lift clean out of the water sometimes if I'm
close hauled and flyin.
I'm thinkin the 5.0 would be a great high wind for me as my 4.7
experiences have been twitchy, and I can easily overpower that sail at
will or by mistake...(see "It's on Krak").  I preferr to sail powered
-overpowered and hit ramps at full tilt.  I think a 5.0 would be good
at 25-30, 5.8-6.0 good for 18-25 and the 7.3 can go from 16-26 with
careful tuning(so far).

J

 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by LeeD » Thu, 18 May 2006 13:11:38

  Hey JRobb....
  Barely missed you today, Tuesday.
  Kinda light winds, eh?
  I was on the 5.1 WindwingBash black and yellow above you most of the
time, just above the restaurant.  Sailing with Keith on his 6.0 and
Cyndall on her 5.6.
  Obviously, I rigged too small for the wind conditions.  Winds maybe
12-19mph.
  No matter what kind of spacing, or what company or model, you'll get
correct days and days where the sail sizing is off, because you can
never predict the wind while you are rigging.
  Yes, modern sails are more rangy, if you buy newer than '94 and YOU
have great range and can tune well.
  No, choosing the wrong sail, even if it's a 2004 (like mine today)
does not quarantee anything close to correct rigging if you choose
wrong.  Retrospect, I shoulda used my 6.8 today.  That would be about
THREE sizes bigger than I chose !!!!
 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by polarbea » Thu, 18 May 2006 13:31:57

J,

My quiver consists of:

7.2 Slalom 7 battens non-cam (wind average I use it for: 15-23mph),
eventually to be replaced by a 7.5  Slalom 3 cams
6.6 Slalom 7 battens 3 cams (19-25mph), powerful and very stable, easy
to handle and light. Basically the sail I'm comparing the other ones
to.
5.8 Freeride 5 batten non-cam, soon to be replaced by a cam (same model
as 6.6) (23-28mph)
4.9 Freeride non-cam (too twitchy), soon to be replaced by a 5.0 cam
(same as 6.6) (25+mph and gusty)
I used to have a 4.2 non-cam, but I never used it.  What I do when I
need one is to borrow from a friend, especially on strong NW winds in
Bodega, the coast, or the Gorge.
But I'm considering buying a 4.4, again same model as 6.6.

I feel that the step from the 5.8 to the 4.9 is too big right now (two
different sail companies), and I would tend to go with a 5.3 in
between, but since I will soon get two new sails, same model as the
6.6, I feel confident that I may not need it. The 4.9 is my high wind
sail now, but does not give the same good feeling the 6.6 gives me when
overpowered. That's the reason why I'm switching to same sail model.
Like you, I just go for speed in SF Bay Area, switching board/fin
depending of the water conditions. I'm 185lbs (winter coat soon to be
shed:-).

So my dream quiver would be: all slalom 3 soft cams 0.9-0.8-0.8-0.6m
apart.

 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by Jrob » Thu, 18 May 2006 14:09:20

Yeah, Lee didn't spot ya.  I learned from yesterday and just rigged my
big dawg and hoped on the "Red Sled" and had some fun.  Never could put
three turns together to get further out, but did manage to get some
hang time and a clew first water start...first time try, first time
success.  (second time try it all went to shite).  I'm starting to
think that maybe my current spacing is fine (could add a 5.0 too) if I
just upgraded to newer style sails.  I demo'ed a 6.4 Gaastra Echo (I
think that's it) from B Boardsports that was super cool but was too
close to my 7.3 in feel.

Hey Polarbear, I was hopin to set myself up sos we could race, but the
wind kept having us up and down at different times...you were on blue
sails today right?

J

 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by LeeD » Thu, 18 May 2006 14:16:25

  Isabelle went out just when I was crawling home, so I missed sailing
with her.
  She fast, for a windsurfer, any gender, any size.
  Did you see Isabella (different girl) on a JP *** 105 smoking
around on a orange and yellow 5.4 Grind?
  I"m sure you passed my buddy Ming on his 6.2 orange Loft and blue
Flow 103.  He sails low.
  I'm usually just below the Lordship, but today, since breeze seemed
light, and I rigged too small, settled on sailing the racecourse upwind
of the restuarant.
  It appears I have the only lime green and black Bash of anyone in
Berkeley!!
 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by polarbea » Thu, 18 May 2006 14:52:55

Hey J,

Yeah, wind kept us apart today. Even though I played "wiser" today and
rigged the 7.1, this wasn't enough most of the time.  I HATE being
underpowered...We should have gone to Pt. Isabel.  That's where the
action was this PM on this side of the Bay.

Tomorrow, I only have an hour of sailing ahead of me.  I need to get
out around 5:00pm to drive the kid to a music lesson. Hopefully, it
will be good between 4:00 and 5:00.  Will probably sail Cal-Sailing's
equipment again since I won't have much time to rig my own stuff.  So,
you'll see me on blue sail 710. Let's all pray and cross our fingers...

 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by Jrob » Thu, 18 May 2006 21:46:40

Don't recall seeing Isabella but I did have my sights on Ming...passed
him maybe twice but the wind seemed hollow.  Just didn't have the punch
of TI or Candlestick (at similar windspeed).  So Lee did you rig and
launch W of Lordships in the cove?

Polar, I though I read your post in "its on krak"correctly referring to
the ladies who sail Berkeley.  You mentioned Isabella among others and
yourself had me confused.  You have an xterra n'esce pas?  Was gonna
introduce myself but didn't want to offend by inferring some stranger
resembled a polarbear :?  Fingers are crossed and I have offered up a
burning footstrap offering to the wind gods.

J

 
 
 

Eternal Question...Quiver spacing

Post by Jerry McEwe » Thu, 18 May 2006 22:34:35

Thanks for the answers. So this is a Naish Sprint 7.3 and as a
recovering cam *** you find it super-stable? That's great to hear,
I see fewer cams in my future.



Quote:
>Well, couple reasons for the cams:
>1)Old habits die hard.  I got hooked sailing in the late 80's early
>90's when a good sail was measured by how many camber inducers it had.
>I took a hyatis (sp) for bout 8 years, and got back in and been there
>since.  It's been hard to break the camber mentality till bout last
>year when I got my beloved Sprint(7.3 ) which is super stable...even
>more so than my older 6.2 and 5.4 (these two are identical sails 'cept
>the 6.2 has another panel sewn in and is slightly taller).

>2) I got the three cammed sails as a lot last year for a super steal.
>The sails were in great cond. being 10 yrs. old and the 4.4 got thrown
>in for free.  The two twins are heavy to water start, and given  what I
>have experienced sailing new camless sails, I prefer camless over cam
>for what I like to do...for now.

>J