Sport Today

> > Kevin isn't doing the selling.  Rigmastermaui has been getting some
> > flack for selling Kevin's protos and other stuff on e-bay.
> > My
> > expertise is in survival and I have no claims to being a good sailor or
> > top techno-nerd.

> What's your point?

> > Kevin sailed a lot more proto's than you have, I'm
> > sure.

> What's your point?

> >  I'm aware of the differences intended with Loft sails.
> > However, I'm not so sure they work as well as those Gun has introduced.
> >  Futhermore, I sold and worked on sporting goods for years.  A good
> > athelete can go out and make you look sick on the cheapest, most basic
> > equipment.  The same goes for Golf, Tennis, Ice Skating, and Bicycling.
> >  I really don't think that it's different with WSing.  Most sales are
> > 90% hype and good psychology.

> Yes, there's some hype in 90% of the sales. That doesn't affect at all
> that any competent amateur athlete beneftits from good gear choices and
> rigging their gear properly ... These benefits are very tangible, but
> only if you pay attention and try to understand how your equipent works.

> > In other words, I think once a weak
> > minded guy has been convinced he's sailing well on a particularly
> > hyped (and expensive) sail or rig, it doesn't matter one way or another
> > how he actually is sailing.  You tell him how the expensive sail will
> > make him see god, he goes out and has a fun day not because of the
> > particular kit, but because  he's windsurfing.
> > That's your job, now,
> > isn't it?

> Nope, it isn't.

> Florian

> Florian, I couldn't care less about your opinions regarding me, the
> equipment I use or my comments.  In addition, I don't care for you.

> Second, I don't know how you came to think of me as Bruce as
> I've never put that name up on this forum or given it to you.  I gave
> Dan Weiss my true name in a private e-mail, but he seems to think it
> better to use Bruce when addressing me here.  Maybe you picked it up
> from reading his posts.  However, I find it a bit ingratiating that you
> use it.

> Third, I wonder if you have any experience with Loft sails.
> You certainly haven't given your opinions here.

> God-damn.  You guys not only lack patience, <snip>

> Florian, I couldn't care less about your opinions regarding me, the
> equipment I use or my comments.  In addition, I don't care for you.  I
> don't want to know who you are, what you actually do for a living nor
> how good you are at this sport.  Why?  First of all, you're attitude
> which is rather common and obvious, doesn't make you stand out in a
> croud. Second, I don't know how you came to think of me as Bruce as
> I've never put that name up on this forum or given it to you.  I gave
> Dan Weiss my true name in a private e-mail, but he seems to think it
> better to use Bruce when addressing me here.  Maybe you picked it up
> from reading his posts.  However, I find it a bit ingratiating that you
> use it.  Third, I wonder if you have any experience with Loft sails.
> You certainly haven't given your opinions here.  You seem more
> interested in discrediting mine by offering personal slurs and
> belittlement.  Forth, I have no idea why Kevin's prototypes should come
> up in a discussion about the Loft Lip.  Whatever,  don't expect me to
> read any more of your non-sense.


said:

> > > Kevin isn't doing the selling.  Rigmastermaui has been getting some
> > > flack for selling Kevin's protos and other stuff on e-bay.
> > > My
> > > expertise is in survival and I have no claims to being a good sailor
or
> > > top techno-nerd.

> > What's your point?

> > > Kevin sailed a lot more proto's than you have, I'm
> > > sure.

> > What's your point?

> > >  I'm aware of the differences intended with Loft sails.
> > > However, I'm not so sure they work as well as those Gun has
introduced.
> > >  Futhermore, I sold and worked on sporting goods for years.  A good
> > > athelete can go out and make you look sick on the cheapest, most basic
> > > equipment.  The same goes for Golf, Tennis, Ice Skating, and
Bicycling.
> > >  I really don't think that it's different with WSing.  Most sales are
> > > 90% hype and good psychology.

> > Yes, there's some hype in 90% of the sales. That doesn't affect at all
> > that any competent amateur athlete beneftits from good gear choices and
> > rigging their gear properly ... These benefits are very tangible, but
> > only if you pay attention and try to understand how your equipent works.

> > > In other words, I think once a weak
> > > minded guy has been convinced he's sailing well on a particularly
> > > hyped (and expensive) sail or rig, it doesn't matter one way or
another
> > > how he actually is sailing.  You tell him how the expensive sail will
> > > make him see god, he goes out and has a fun day not because of the
> > > particular kit, but because  he's windsurfing.
> > > That's your job, now,
> > > isn't it?

> > Nope, it isn't.

> > Florian

> > God-damn.  You guys not only lack patience, <snip>

> true in a relative sense, especially compared to the "regular" posters on
> the IWS forums who somehow lack the motivation to indentify/contest your
> verbal vomit, or, sadly, they just don't bother anymore.  the IWS
> forums are pretty much dead now, and you take most of the credit for
> destroying their reputation by posing as 12 different idiots. after all,
> with the
> evidence hints in "oneup"'s postings all removed, people should think there
> are really 12 different idiots, right? gee thats a lot, so I guess maybe
> most windsurfers are idiots?

> > Florian, I couldn't care less about your opinions regarding me, the
> > equipment I use or my comments.  In addition, I don't care for you.  I
> > don't want to know who you are, what you actually do for a living nor
> > how good you are at this sport.  Why?  First of all, you're attitude
> > which is rather common and obvious, doesn't make you stand out in a
> > croud. Second, I don't know how you came to think of me as Bruce as
> > I've never put that name up on this forum or given it to you.  I gave
> > Dan Weiss my true name in a private e-mail, but he seems to think it
> > better to use Bruce when addressing me here.  Maybe you picked it up
> > from reading his posts.  However, I find it a bit ingratiating that you
> > use it.  Third, I wonder if you have any experience with Loft sails.
> > You certainly haven't given your opinions here.  You seem more
> > interested in discrediting mine by offering personal slurs and
> > belittlement.  Forth, I have no idea why Kevin's prototypes should come
> > up in a discussion about the Loft Lip.  Whatever,  don't expect me to
> > read any more of your non-sense.


> said:

> > > > Kevin isn't doing the selling.  Rigmastermaui has been getting some
> > > > flack for selling Kevin's protos and other stuff on e-bay.
> > > > My
> > > > expertise is in survival and I have no claims to being a good sailor
> or
> > > > top techno-nerd.

> > > What's your point?

> > > > Kevin sailed a lot more proto's than you have, I'm
> > > > sure.

> > > What's your point?

> > > >  I'm aware of the differences intended with Loft sails.
> > > > However, I'm not so sure they work as well as those Gun has
> introduced.
> > > >  Futhermore, I sold and worked on sporting goods for years.  A good
> > > > athelete can go out and make you look sick on the cheapest, most basic
> > > > equipment.  The same goes for Golf, Tennis, Ice Skating, and
> Bicycling.
> > > >  I really don't think that it's different with WSing.  Most sales are
> > > > 90% hype and good psychology.

> > > Yes, there's some hype in 90% of the sales. That doesn't affect at all
> > > that any competent amateur athlete beneftits from good gear choices and
> > > rigging their gear properly ... These benefits are very tangible, but
> > > only if you pay attention and try to understand how your equipent works.

> > > > In other words, I think once a weak
> > > > minded guy has been convinced he's sailing well on a particularly
> > > > hyped (and expensive) sail or rig, it doesn't matter one way or
> another
> > > > how he actually is sailing.  You tell him how the expensive sail will
> > > > make him see god, he goes out and has a fun day not because of the
> > > > particular kit, but because  he's windsurfing.
> > > > That's your job, now,
> > > > isn't it?

> > > Nope, it isn't.

> > > Florian

> Dan Weiss my true name in a private e-mail, but he seems to think it
> better to use Bruce when addressing me here.  SNIP

> > God-damn.  You guys not only lack patience, <snip>

> true in a relative sense, especially compared to the "regular" posters on
> the IWS forums who somehow lack the motivation to indentify/contest your
> verbal vomit, or, sadly, they just don't bother anymore.  the IWS
> forums are pretty much dead now, and you take most of the credit for
> destroying their reputation by posing as 12 different idiots. after all,
> with the
> evidence hints in "oneup"'s postings all removed, people should think there
> are really 12 different idiots, right? gee thats a lot, so I guess maybe
> most windsurfers are idiots?

> > Florian, I couldn't care less about your opinions regarding me, the
> > equipment I use or my comments.  In addition, I don't care for you.  I
> > don't want to know who you are, what you actually do for a living nor
> > how good you are at this sport.  Why?  First of all, you're attitude
> > which is rather common and obvious, doesn't make you stand out in a
> > croud. Second, I don't know how you came to think of me as Bruce as
> > I've never put that name up on this forum or given it to you.  I gave
> > Dan Weiss my true name in a private e-mail, but he seems to think it
> > better to use Bruce when addressing me here.  Maybe you picked it up
> > from reading his posts.  However, I find it a bit ingratiating that you
> > use it.  Third, I wonder if you have any experience with Loft sails.
> > You certainly haven't given your opinions here.  You seem more
> > interested in discrediting mine by offering personal slurs and
> > belittlement.  Forth, I have no idea why Kevin's prototypes should come
> > up in a discussion about the Loft Lip.  Whatever,  don't expect me to
> > read any more of your non-sense.


> said:

> > > > Kevin isn't doing the selling.  Rigmastermaui has been getting some
> > > > flack for selling Kevin's protos and other stuff on e-bay.
> > > > My
> > > > expertise is in survival and I have no claims to being a good sailor
> or
> > > > top techno-nerd.

> > > What's your point?

> > > > Kevin sailed a lot more proto's than you have, I'm
> > > > sure.

> > > What's your point?

> > > >  I'm aware of the differences intended with Loft sails.
> > > > However, I'm not so sure they work as well as those Gun has
> introduced.
> > > >  Futhermore, I sold and worked on sporting goods for years.  A good
> > > > athelete can go out and make you look sick on the cheapest, most basic
> > > > equipment.  The same goes for Golf, Tennis, Ice Skating, and
> Bicycling.
> > > >  I really don't think that it's different with WSing.  Most sales are
> > > > 90% hype and good psychology.

> > > Yes, there's some hype in 90% of the sales. That doesn't affect at all
> > > that any competent amateur athlete beneftits from good gear choices and
> > > rigging their gear properly ... These benefits are very tangible, but
> > > only if you pay attention and try to understand how your equipent works.

> > > > In other words, I think once a weak
> > > > minded guy has been convinced he's sailing well on a particularly
> > > > hyped (and expensive) sail or rig, it doesn't matter one way or
> another
> > > > how he actually is sailing.  You tell him how the expensive sail will
> > > > make him see god, he goes out and has a fun day not because of the
> > > > particular kit, but because  he's windsurfing.
> > > > That's your job, now,
> > > > isn't it?

> > > Nope, it isn't.

> > > Florian

> Florian, I couldn't care less about your opinions regarding me, the
> equipment I use or my comments.  In addition, I don't care for you.  I
> don't want to know who you are, what you actually do for a living nor
> how good you are at this sport.  Why?  First of all, you're attitude
> which is rather common and obvious, doesn't make you stand out in a
> croud. Second, I don't know how you came to think of me as Bruce as
> I've never put that name up on this forum or given it to you.  I gave
> Dan Weiss my true name in a private e-mail, but he seems to think it
> better to use Bruce when addressing me here.  Maybe you picked it up
> from reading his posts.  However, I find it a bit ingratiating that you
> use it.  Third, I wonder if you have any experience with Loft sails.
> You certainly haven't given your opinions here.  You seem more
> interested in discrediting mine by offering personal slurs and
> belittlement.  Forth, I have no idea why Kevin's prototypes should come
> up in a discussion about the Loft Lip.  Whatever,  don't expect me to
> read any more of your non-sense.

> > > Kevin isn't doing the selling.  Rigmastermaui has been getting some
> > > flack for selling Kevin's protos and other stuff on e-bay.
> > > My
> > > expertise is in survival and I have no claims to being a good sailor or
> > > top techno-nerd.

> > What's your point?

> > > Kevin sailed a lot more proto's than you have, I'm
> > > sure.

> > What's your point?

> > >  I'm aware of the differences intended with Loft sails.
> > > However, I'm not so sure they work as well as those Gun has introduced.
> > >  Futhermore, I sold and worked on sporting goods for years.  A good
> > > athelete can go out and make you look sick on the cheapest, most basic
> > > equipment.  The same goes for Golf, Tennis, Ice Skating, and Bicycling.
> > >  I really don't think that it's different with WSing.  Most sales are
> > > 90% hype and good psychology.

> > Yes, there's some hype in 90% of the sales. That doesn't affect at all
> > that any competent amateur athlete beneftits from good gear choices and
> > rigging their gear properly ... These benefits are very tangible, but
> > only if you pay attention and try to understand how your equipent works.

> > > In other words, I think once a weak
> > > minded guy has been convinced he's sailing well on a particularly
> > > hyped (and expensive) sail or rig, it doesn't matter one way or another
> > > how he actually is sailing.  You tell him how the expensive sail will
> > > make him see god, he goes out and has a fun day not because of the
> > > particular kit, but because  he's windsurfing.
> > > That's your job, now,
> > > isn't it?

> > Nope, it isn't.

> > Florian

> Kevin isn't doing the selling.  Rigmastermaui has been getting some
> flack for selling Kevin's protos and other stuff on e-bay.  My
> expertise is in survival and I have no claims to being a good sailor or
> top techno-nerd.  Kevin sailed a lot more proto's than you have, I'm
> sure.    I'm aware of the differences intended with Loft sails.
> However, I'm not so sure they work as well as those Gun has introduced.
>  Futhermore, I sold and worked on sporting goods for years.  A good
> athelete can go out and make you look sick on the cheapest, most basic
> equipment.  The same goes for Golf, Tennis, Ice Skating, and Bicycling.
>  I really don't think that it's different with WSing.  Most sales are
> 90% hype and good psychology.  In other words, I think once a weak
> minded guy has been convinced he's sailing well on a particularly
> hyped (and expensive) sail or rig, it doesn't matter one way or another
> how he actually is sailing.  You tell him how the expensive sail will
> make him see god, he goes out and has a fun day not because of the
> particular kit, but because  he's windsurfing.   That's your job, now,
> isn't it?

>>>Odd post there Florian.  Are you trying to put me down somehow?  In
>>>actuality, I have done an indepth study of Loft rigging techniques
>>>using their website.  Spindler has a number of tuning tips printed in
>>>the House catalogues, too.  I also must state that I'm not fully set
>>>against my O2, just that the honeymoon is over. I'm using the
>>>recommended mast as well.  Now, when it comes to dealing with
>>>prototypes which can be highly unorthodox, I suggest you leave the
>>>criticisms up to the experts.

>>No, Bruce, I am not putting you down. I am just trying to explain to
>>you why a Loft looks and feels different from other sails. In addition,
>>I'd venture to say that in your hands these sails may exhibit
>>characteristics that were not intended by the designer - at least in
>>the case of the Gaastra you posted about. About prototypes: I find it
>>odd that Kevin sells protos on eBay. I always kept my own, but I did
>>always appreciate an opinion - from experts as well as sailors as
>>yourself.

>>florian

> > Dan Weiss my true name in a private e-mail, but he seems to think it
> > better to use Bruce when addressing me here.  SNIP

> I don't think you did, at least I never received an e-mail from you.
> The only name you suggested to me that I call you was Robby.
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.windsurfing/browse_frm/thread/cd5b...

> I took that as tongue in cheek, needless to say and, frankly, I doubt I
> could call you Robby with a straight face.

> When did you send me that e-mail?

> -Dan

>I have done an indepth study of Loft rigging techniques
> using their website.  Spindler has a number of tuning tips printed in
> the House catalogues, too.  I also must state that I'm not fully set
> against my O2, just that the honeymoon is over. I'm using the
> recommended mast as well.

> >I have done an indepth study of Loft rigging techniques
> > using their website.  Spindler has a number of tuning tips printed in
> > the House catalogues, too.  I also must state that I'm not fully set
> > against my O2, just that the honeymoon is over. I'm using the
> > recommended mast as well.

> Hello Coz,
> I regret that your relationship with the O2 8.4 has taken a dive...  I
> would like mention that the O2 8.4 might be the most sucsessful design
> in our range if one considers Loftsails magazine test results.
> Planchmag France announces the O2 8.4 as their "heart-throb" for its
> "polyvalence absolue" in both their 05 & 06 freerace tests...  Wind mag
> arrived at similar results wen they tested our O2 8.4 in 05... and The
> Loft is not yet advertising in France!
> Ae you using a 490 rdm?  Are you adjusting your trim to suit your
> windsurfing conditions?  Are you aggressive with your downhaul tension?

> Good winds,  Monty

> Thanks for the feedback, monty.  Actually, after sailing Tuesday, when
> rolling the sail up I thought to my self  >>This is a beautiful sail.<<
>  At that point, I checked my thinking against this thread.  I really
> don't know whether I was impressed with the look of the sail and that's
> what put the thought in my head or it was the day's sailing.  I do rig
> it on a 490 (not an rdm), but I'm not as aggressive as I have been with
> the downhaul tensions.  This would be due to the fact that I was
> rigging it with a lot more extension length than printed on the sail.
> I also started using a trim hook and complying with the
> recommendations.  I am convinced now, though, that I can exceed the
> recommended extention length quite radically in very gusty conditions.
> However, when I stated that the head seemed to flutter too much, I was
> commenting on one of the most over-powering turbulent situations I've
> been in with this sail when the wind had picked up dramatically with
> gusts over 30 m.p.g.   I rigged down to a 6.0 and took 50 liters off
> the board, but still I was blasting on the brink of disaster.
> Whatever, this is the sail I  use most often.  I started rigging with
> increased downhaul using the North VTS system with the markings on the
> sail.  I don't know if you are familiar with it, but my Loft doesn't
> line up the same way.  It seems the whole leech down to the boom
> loosens, but not deeply into the panels.  Perhaps you can comment on
> that.  In addition, having sold skiis for a number of years and demo'ld
> hundreds, I can see how the French would love this sail.  They build a
> much lighter, quicker ski than the Germans/Austrians, but they often
> have to sacrifice durability to optain that.

> Hi Coz,
> Your O2 must be a few years old...  we adopted the integrated pulley in
> 04 if my memory is correct.  The O2s were produced from the 2000
> patterns until 03, 04 new patterns were produced- slightly stronger
> light wind performance.
> Sdms make the rig feel stiffer and reduce the rig`s tuning range.
> Using an 8.4 in 30knots is over the top for an 8.4!  Maybe with extreme
> trim you can manage but there are limits to wind range...
> The O2s will release deep into the leech/body with strong downhaul
> tension...  if not then it may be that your mast is very top-stiff.
> The O2s are lighter than the average- especially the earlier O2s, they
> also have more xply than the average and they are built with
> "super-Xply" in the foot (two large panels) and have radial 2plys that
> extend into the sail body from the clew- this is a unique construction
> that adds significantly to sail integrity.
> Good winds,  Monty

> > Thanks for the feedback, monty.  Actually, after sailing Tuesday, when
> > rolling the sail up I thought to my self  >>This is a beautiful sail.<<
> >  At that point, I checked my thinking against this thread.  I really
> > don't know whether I was impressed with the look of the sail and that's
> > what put the thought in my head or it was the day's sailing.  I do rig
> > it on a 490 (not an rdm), but I'm not as aggressive as I have been with
> > the downhaul tensions.  This would be due to the fact that I was
> > rigging it with a lot more extension length than printed on the sail.
> > I also started using a trim hook and complying with the
> > recommendations.  I am convinced now, though, that I can exceed the
> > recommended extention length quite radically in very gusty conditions.
> > However, when I stated that the head seemed to flutter too much, I was
> > commenting on one of the most over-powering turbulent situations I've
> > been in with this sail when the wind had picked up dramatically with
> > gusts over 30 m.p.g.   I rigged down to a 6.0 and took 50 liters off
> > the board, but still I was blasting on the brink of disaster.
> > Whatever, this is the sail I  use most often.  I started rigging with
> > increased downhaul using the North VTS system with the markings on the
> > sail.  I don't know if you are familiar with it, but my Loft doesn't
> > line up the same way.  It seems the whole leech down to the boom
> > loosens, but not deeply into the panels.  Perhaps you can comment on
> > that.  In addition, having sold skiis for a number of years and demo'ld
> > hundreds, I can see how the French would love this sail.  They build a
> > much lighter, quicker ski than the Germans/Austrians, but they often
> > have to sacrifice durability to optain that.

> I sent you an e-mail on July 22, you responded on August 1 twice.
> Perhaps my name wasn't in the e-mail, but in my google records it is
> bookmarked under my legal name.  I checked my signature, and find that
> I hadn't one.  Now I do.  G-mail allows permanent archiving of e-mail
> with a vast memory so expect any exchange with a g-mail account to be
> perpetually stored.  I have changed my e-mail here to avoid the
> identity thieves.


> > > Dan Weiss my true name in a private e-mail, but he seems to think it
> > > better to use Bruce when addressing me here.  SNIP

> > I don't think you did, at least I never received an e-mail from you.
> > The only name you suggested to me that I call you was Robby.
> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.windsurfing/browse_frm/thread/cd5b...

> > I took that as tongue in cheek, needless to say and, frankly, I doubt I
> > could call you Robby with a straight face.

> > When did you send me that e-mail?

> > -Dan

> The sail I have was bought late in '04 and came with a card which has a
> Loft 2004  features section and a table titled Mast/Boom specifications
> that doesn't include RDM's in the Rec.Mast or Compatible Mast entries
> for the 8.4  It also has a Mast entry of 513 and a Mast Ext. of 23.  On
> the sail it states Mast Ext. 23 with trim hook.  Of course when the
> gusts hit over 30 for a short period, I realized I had to get back to
> shore ASAP.  I'ld like to read those mag reviews from Planchmag France
> and Wind mag in the language they were written even though they cover
> sails differently constructed than mine.  The mast I'm using is a 60%
> carbon freerace and may be very top stiff, I don't know.  As to the
> panels, I put a large rip  the middle mono panels above the boom when I
> was jousted by one of those gusts that have been so common this season
> where I sail.  I was able to make a good repair so I haven't replaced
> the panel, yet.  The repaired panel hasn't effected the way the sail