Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by WillowBeach » Mon, 07 Feb 2005 01:52:12


I am looking for a new 10.5 sail. I am most interested in the Sailworks
Retro and the Ezzy Infinity. I am hoping people with experience on these 2
sails can share there opinions on likes and dislikes, and how these 2
compare.

When the wind is light I sail a Starboard F147. I have had Neilpyrde RS & V8
sails. What attracts me to these 2 sails is that they are built with X-Ply
panels which should provide way more durabilty than I am used and hopefully
last longer. Also, there boom requirements are more modest, which would save
me from having to invest in a 310cm boom.

How do they perform?
How will they feel compared to a Race sail?
What does a camless 11m sail feel like?
Are they more durable?

Any pitfalls?

Thanks

db

 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by kurt » Mon, 07 Feb 2005 09:09:38

The Retro is either a 10.0 or 11.0; no 10.5 in this round.

I sail 10.0 on my Formula board as my primary big sail.  They pump
beautifully.  They point extremely high; I have yet to have anyone
outpoint me w/their race sails.  Dale Cook's & Bruce P's. competition
results indicate they don't give up anything to cammed sails.  I've
read where Bruce & Dale are going to really start campaigning them as
viable race sail options.

They are very sensitive to outhaul; if you don't have an adjustable
outhaul, they can't be sailed effectively.  They are very tuning
sensitive; if you are someone that just likes to pull the sail down to
the mfg's. numbers, you aren't going to like it.  They need someone
attuned to subtle variations in the relationship between downhaul &
outhaul. Differences of a single centimeter can make a very large
difference in how it feels.  When you get them tuned properly, they
have an absolutely incredible soft & responsive feel, w/huge range.
Getting them tuned nicely isn't hard; it just takes someone attentive
to detail and willing to play w/ the adjustments when rigging.

If it is well tuned, draft is very stable, unlike other camless sails.
Still not the same as cams, but differences are very slight.
Personally, I'm on a no-cam kick; cams are just one more thing to
break.  And, I really dig the X-Ply. I've hear some folks complain that
it feels like a *** band, but I've never felt it.

You will need a 520cm mast.  Get 100% carbon if you can, as it makes
them pump very nicely & respond nicely in the gusts.  You need to sail
them a little more aggressively, i.e., you can't just stand the board
on it's beam and expect to fly.

It  (Retro) is very durable, fittings & finish are excellent, the
camber adjustment device is simple & elegant, etc.  No complaints on
mfg.

My buddy just got a new 10.5 Infinity, but I haven't tried it.  The
main visual is that it is a very high aspect sail; they are beautiful
on the water.  Extremely well made, probably the nicest mfg. of any
sail.  The finish is really remarkable.  They are an amazingly deep

going to buy a cam sail, that would be it.

 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by (Pete Cresswell » Mon, 07 Feb 2005 09:26:06

Per WillowBeach2:

Quote:

>I am looking for a new 10.5 sail. I am most interested in the Sailworks
>Retro and the Ezzy Infinity. I am hoping people with experience on these 2
>sails can share there opinions on likes and dislikes, and how these 2
>compare.

I tried both when shopping for my 7.8.

My take is that you should do the same thing if you can.

Reason: When I A/B'd them I had a clear preference for the Infinity, but
everybody where I sail absolutely swears by their Retros.  That means there's
some room there for personal preference.    My feeling was that the CE stayed in
one place better on the Infinity....but I'm sure there are at least a hundred
Retro owners out there that would vehemently disagree.
--
PeteCresswell

 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by Tom - Chicag » Mon, 07 Feb 2005 22:32:03

One more thing - Kurt (my friend) recommends a 100% Carbon mast.

I think that is OK for most, but I tend to sail overpowered enough to have
gotten used to it - really comfortable with it.  Last summer I broke 3 100%
Carbon masts.

If you are relatively big and will sail them hard - think about 75%  carbon
content - or backbones.  For the 520 there is some beautiful Italian mast
called the lightstick - more $$$$ - but breaking down out on the water is no
fun.

Tom - Chicago


Quote:
> The Retro is either a 10.0 or 11.0; no 10.5 in this round.

> I sail 10.0 on my Formula board as my primary big sail.  They pump
> beautifully.  They point extremely high; I have yet to have anyone
> outpoint me w/their race sails.  Dale Cook's & Bruce P's. competition
> results indicate they don't give up anything to cammed sails.  I've
> read where Bruce & Dale are going to really start campaigning them as
> viable race sail options.

> They are very sensitive to outhaul; if you don't have an adjustable
> outhaul, they can't be sailed effectively.  They are very tuning
> sensitive; if you are someone that just likes to pull the sail down to
> the mfg's. numbers, you aren't going to like it.  They need someone
> attuned to subtle variations in the relationship between downhaul &
> outhaul. Differences of a single centimeter can make a very large
> difference in how it feels.  When you get them tuned properly, they
> have an absolutely incredible soft & responsive feel, w/huge range.
> Getting them tuned nicely isn't hard; it just takes someone attentive
> to detail and willing to play w/ the adjustments when rigging.

> If it is well tuned, draft is very stable, unlike other camless sails.
> Still not the same as cams, but differences are very slight.
> Personally, I'm on a no-cam kick; cams are just one more thing to
> break.  And, I really dig the X-Ply. I've hear some folks complain that
> it feels like a *** band, but I've never felt it.

> You will need a 520cm mast.  Get 100% carbon if you can, as it makes
> them pump very nicely & respond nicely in the gusts.  You need to sail
> them a little more aggressively, i.e., you can't just stand the board
> on it's beam and expect to fly.

> It  (Retro) is very durable, fittings & finish are excellent, the
> camber adjustment device is simple & elegant, etc.  No complaints on
> mfg.

> My buddy just got a new 10.5 Infinity, but I haven't tried it.  The
> main visual is that it is a very high aspect sail; they are beautiful
> on the water.  Extremely well made, probably the nicest mfg. of any
> sail.  The finish is really remarkable.  They are an amazingly deep

> going to buy a cam sail, that would be it.

 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by (Pete Cresswell » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:03:40

Per kurt:

Quote:
>They are very sensitive to outhaul; if you don't have an adjustable
>outhaul, they can't be sailed effectively.  They are very tuning
>sensitive; if you are someone that just likes to pull the sail down to
>the mfg's. numbers, you aren't going to like it.  They need someone
>attuned to subtle variations in the relationship between downhaul &
>outhaul. Differences of a single centimeter can make a very large
>difference in how it feels.  When you get them tuned properly, they
>have an absolutely incredible soft & responsive feel, w/huge range.
>Getting them tuned nicely isn't hard; it just takes someone attentive
>to detail and willing to play w/ the adjustments when rigging.

That sounds like the key to my preference for Infinity over Retro.

--
PeteCresswell

 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by kurt » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 03:33:07

True enough; 100% masts can break unexpectedly.  It's bad enough
swimming in w/broken gear, let alone w/a 10 meter sail.

OK.  I've convinced myself.  Get a 75%'er.....

 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by kurt » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 03:38:21

Tuning w/ the Infinity is simpler, I think.  Ezzy even puts a little
string on the back of the clew, as in "outhaul to this string length, &
don't touch it after that".  Aren't there a couple (or more) little
tuning benchmarks built into the Infinity?

I did notice that he includes spare cambers w/the kit, tacit admission
that they break.  I guess I'm just camber averse nowadays.

 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by (Pete Cresswell » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 04:34:21

Per kurt:

Quote:
>Tuning w/ the Infinity is simpler, I think.  Ezzy even puts a little
>string on the back of the clew, as in "outhaul to this string length, &
>don't touch it after that".  Aren't there a couple (or more) little
>tuning benchmarks built into the Infinity?

That's what won me over....that and the shape printed near the head of the sail
that serves as a downhaul gauge.  
--
PeteCresswell
 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by Graha » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 05:35:58

The Infinity comes with no "extra" cambers. The Infinity does come with
three camber sizes, so that any mast from the last 15 years will work with
the Infinity.

Graham


Quote:
> Tuning w/ the Infinity is simpler, I think.  Ezzy even puts a little
> string on the back of the clew, as in "outhaul to this string length, &
> don't touch it after that".  Aren't there a couple (or more) little
> tuning benchmarks built into the Infinity?

> I did notice that he includes spare cambers w/the kit, tacit admission
> that they break.  I guess I'm just camber averse nowadays.

 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by kurt » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:05:36

Aahhhh, grasshopper didn't know.....  The package I saw (buddies) only
had one extra set, so I wasn't able to discern a size difference.  Now
that someone from Ezzy is watching,  how do these babies (cambers) hold
up?
 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by (Pete Cresswell » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:05:58

Per kurt:

Quote:
> Now
>that someone from Ezzy is watching,  how do these babies (cambers) hold
>up?

I've been using them for 3 or 4 years and haven't seen any problems with the
camber inducers or the mast.   A beeeg improvement over my old WindWings where I
had to pull the whole batten out to switch between induced and RAF and the
inducers wore away the mast until it finally broke under load.
--
PeteCresswell
 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by Glenn Woodel » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:33:12

When you first open the sail and see the three sets of cams, your
first reaction will be that this is way to ocomplicated to mess with.
But once you read the chart it all makes sense. You simply select the
correct cambers for your mast and you are set.

Their new system ensures that there is no slop in the luff sleve and
the the luff tension is just right. It makes a noticible difference
when you get it set right. The luff is perfectly snug and there is no
slop between the cams and the mast.

Glenn

Quote:

>The Infinity comes with no "extra" cambers. The Infinity does come with
>three camber sizes, so that any mast from the last 15 years will work with
>the Infinity.

>Graham



>> Tuning w/ the Infinity is simpler, I think.  Ezzy even puts a little
>> string on the back of the clew, as in "outhaul to this string length, &
>> don't touch it after that".  Aren't there a couple (or more) little
>> tuning benchmarks built into the Infinity?

>> I did notice that he includes spare cambers w/the kit, tacit admission
>> that they break.  I guess I'm just camber averse nowadays.

 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by WillowBeach » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:24:15

Anyone know why Ezzy does build to 12.5 and in doing so offer the sail up to
Formula racers?

Is the X-Ply used on either the Retro or Infinity noticably heavier than
'Race' sails?


Quote:
> Aahhhh, grasshopper didn't know.....  The package I saw (buddies) only
> had one extra set, so I wasn't able to discern a size difference.  Now
> that someone from Ezzy is watching,  how do these babies (cambers) hold
> up?

 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by wal » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:48:19

Quote:
> I've been using them for 3 or 4 years and haven't seen any problems with
> the
> camber inducers or the mast.

Hmm... My experience is different. It's academic now since they changed the
camber inducers but I've busted 3 of the old ones. I don't have a gripe
about them because it's dead easy to jury rig a fix when they do break, and
they are really easy on the mast as you pointed out, and they rotate nicely.
The problem I've had is due to a compounding of a) the tendency of the
camber to twist upwards when downhauling thus overloading the bottom tape
which then has to take all the sail batten compression, and b) using only
one camber inducer rather than 2, and c) using an adjustable outhaul which
often has the sail with zero outhaul tension.  The bit that fails is one of
the "ladder rungs" of the webbing buckle moulded into each of the cam side
plates. Those things are definitely undersized. Its amazing they last as
well as they do. The fix is just to tape a bit of s/s wire to the outside
face of the cam plate to do the job of the ladder rung. I've been using s/s
split pins for the job but it recently occurred to me that those s/s shanks
from alum' pop rivets (the bits that you throw away after fixing a rivet)
would be ideal. Now as long as those fixes hold I wont complain.
 
 
 

Sails: Retro vs Infinity

Post by kurt » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:36:42

I don't think it's heavier; it doesn't feel heavier.  I think it may
even be lighter.