Sport Today

Hi all,

I made it down the stairs this morning and will pay heavily for it, but , big
brother introduced me to a new product. Both of us are interested in it as it
allow one a tad of freedom, from fiberglass work.

WEST SYSTEM has an epoxy paint, which, over wood gives the look of a glass boat
without the hassle of actually casting a hull in a form.

He was on a huge trimaran built of wood with this finish. The owner said it had
the in water characteristics of a glass boat and the ease of building in wood.
ZOOOEE, this got him investigating.

He is "net challanged" but getting there. I tried in vain to get him on for 9
years. Hid sailing on this Tri-hull for a week sent him to boat books with a
million URL's. He has spent 9 nights and 2 weekends glued to the machine.

I (and he) are interested in people who have used this system instead of
fiberglass. Dificulties horror stories, helpful hints , better products etc.

Also is there a news group that caters to people who build wooden boats??
Wooden catamarans etc?

Is the friction reducing paint used on big ship available to us mere peons? (is
this the stuff?)

Any suggestions, other newgroups, websites(ot westsytem.com) ,appreciated.

chris
For free plans and info on solar oven's water and purifiers, that actually
work, see<http://www.accessone.com/~sbcn/index.htm>
===========================================================
Sufficiently advance technology is indistinguishable from magic..

I am not sure what your point is here. I have done a lot of work with west
system and I actually built an Olympic Class Tornado years ago using west epoxy
and wood. West epoxy is pretty much like most other types of high end epoxy. It
works well with wood as it makes a great glue and by using the right fillers
you can make just about any type of putty or paste that is needed in wood boat
construction. One advantage of the west system is that by using their fillers
the end producd is more predictable. West epoxy is good for flow coating wood
like Cedar veneer, marine plywood. This will give the wood a water proof
barrier and enhance the finish. West epoxy like most epoxies does not like the
sun and the uv will yellow the finish and the  epoxy will break down. I haven't
heard of their new paint but it is probably very uv resistant and still clear
to show the bueaty of the wood. West epoxy is a coating and by itself is not
strong. You could build a boat (board?) and flow coat epoxy and use their paint
over the wood. It would be light and pretty but fragile and not ding resistant.
Most builders are going to fiberglass over the wood, then flow coat and paint.
Still pretty and tougher.  

www.woodenboat.com

Are you are talking about building a boat from
wood instead of fiberglass?  No epoxy paint
will reduce the maintenance of wood to equal
that of glass.  Any chip in the finish of a wooden
boat allows water to reach the wood,
so it must be repaired immediately.  If it
is not noticed, water damage to the wood
is likely.
Wood is often covered with a layer of fiberglass
to strengthen the outer coat.  This helps a lot.

Wood boats will be lighter and stiffer than
comparable single-skin fiberglass boats.  It
is not until you start building foam-core
fiberglass (glass-foam-glass) hulls that
you can start to compete with wood for lightness/stiffness.

good luck

Stergios

--

Dept. of Physics and Astronomy          
http://www.physics.unc.edu/~papadaks
Univ. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill,   (o) (919) 962 7298
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-3255               (f) (919) 962 0480

Hi Stergios, and Chris,

Close, Chris, but not quite. Using the "Wood Epoxy Saturation
Technique" (WEST) requires a frame work of some sort. Often boat
builders use marine plywood frames, or built up frames to "shape"
the wooden hull. The first layer is stapled to the frames to
set the basic shape of the hull, and  then each successive layer (the
thickness of veneer) is laid in West Resin which saturates both the
substrate and what's being applied on top. Then the new layer is
stapled in place. This techniqe requires the use of monel or stainless
staples, but results in an extremely strong and easily repairable
hull and the designer can almost go "freeform" with the frames as the
thin layers of wood can be easily bent to conform to nearly any
imagineable curve or shape.
And, the hull can be reinforced with fiberglass, carbon, kevlar
dyneema, etc where needed for extra strength. The reinforcing
fibers can be laid in West epoxy and stapled in place just like
the wood laminating panels.

This is a "saturated wood" boat building technique.

Actually a properly done WEST boat hull (or sailboard hull for
that matter) will have equal maintenance with fiberglass and be
significantly stronger on a strength to weight basis.

On a normal pure wood, or plywood boat, this is true.
For a WEST epoxy laminate hull it would not be so critical

In the West System, each layer of the laminate is sealed from
the next, by the saturating epoxy resin. So, you only will have
to repair the wood in the area of the damage, and the moisture
damage will not migrate to underlying layers if the laminate is
laid up correctly.

Some WEST system boat hulls are also glassed on the outside,
but many are not. They use thin hardwoods that absorb a known
amount of the resin, and this serves as both a bonding agent and
a sealer. It's pretty easy to repair, and you can get wonderful
wood grain finishes from the natural woods used.
Very true, but with the West System, you can combine both
technologies (or all 3 if you like, Foam cores, fiberglass,
saturated wood). West is a resin system with great flexibility.

Starboard uses this "combined" technology (Not necessarily West
Systems, but epoxy based to be sure) to achieve very high
impact strength in their "Wood Technology" boards, using light
foams for the core; glass/dyneema; hard structural foams
(Divynicel, Rohacell, etc); more glass/dyneema; then thin wood
layers; and a final covering of glass/dyneema. Very strong, also
easy to repair

Hope this helps,
       Roger
--
sailquik US 7011
Sailworks/Starboard

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Wood veneer bends fine in one direction but cannot be bent in two
directions so you are limited to using strips of wood or relief cuts in
areas with curvature in two directions.

"strength to weight" becomes a meaningless buzzword, when it is not
specified what strength parameter it refers to. Wood has a far lower
tensile strength to weight ratio than fiberglass.

R!

--        ,--+___.                                            oOOOOOOo
        ,/   |    \                                            /  /
  ___  /     |     \.       Rainer Leuschke                   /  /
   __ /      |       \.     phone: (w) 206-685-0900          /  /      
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     |       |   \        \   Weight is only of use      /  /    
     |       |    \        |  in steamrollers.           o /          
     +--o o--|     \       |             - Uffa Fox     'U~    
    .|_[]{ }_|------+======'                             )\
   M|_______________|                                   -;---'
   U       H
           U

Hi Rainer ,

Ummmm.... Yes, that is usually the case, but careful selection and
use of very thin veneers , and the laying of "strips" at different
angles (sort of like a "double planked hull") can facilitate using
wood (properly stapled to the desired shape before the epoxy
sets up) in many applications where carbon fiber or fiberglass
would become too thick and heavy  to get the required number
of plies.
Yes, alone, wood has a lower tensile strength. But combine it with
epoxy, reinforce it with a little dyneema ( modified  PE) and the
strength characteristics can be improved dramatically.
The "impact resistance" can increase significantly,  and for
boats and sailboards, this can be the most useful "strength".
Regards,
    Roger

Hear, hear!
I've been through the numbers with different cores and reinforcements vs
"cold-molded" wood, and found that in each of the Carbon/fiberglass composites
as commonly used in sailboards, buckling and impact resistance were the
critical loading modes. In order to obtain a structure able to sustain even
minor impacts, its longitudinal strength will far exceed requirements.  A
multiple-layer wood veneer skin, on the other hand, presents an almost perfect
balance as far as required longitudinal strength and resistance to buckling and
dings. And sure is prettier! and lighter! and tougher to build... I'm working
on that
Eva

Oh I can see it now, 8 lbs cold molded wood boards that can be sailed
right up onto the rocky beach without damage. And they will be
beautiful to boot ... 8-)
R!

--        ,--+___.                                            oOOOOOOo
        ,/   |    \                                            /  /
  ___  /     |     \.       Rainer Leuschke                   /  /
   __ /      |       \.     phone: (w) 206-685-0900          /  /      
 __  /   14  |\        \           (h) 206-547-8927         /  /      
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     |       |   \        \   Weight is only of use      /  /    
     |       |    \        |  in steamrollers.           o /          
     +--o o--|     \       |             - Uffa Fox     'U~    
    .|_[]{ }_|------+======'                             )\
   M|_______________|                                   -;---'
   U       H
           U

So you have to reinforce your wood to increase it's strength. Sort of
ironic considering you claimed it has the best "strength to weight
ratio" previously. If we're talking arbitrary composites, wood certainly
has it's place as a high density core. But this is very application
specific. If you don't need high impact strength and minimum weight is the
goal, wood will certainly not be in your composite.

R!

--        ,--+___.                                            oOOOOOOo
        ,/   |    \                                            /  /
  ___  /     |     \.       Rainer Leuschke                   /  /
   __ /      |       \.     phone: (w) 206-685-0900          /  /      
 __  /   14  |\        \           (h) 206-547-8927         /  /      
     |   ~~  | \        \                                  /  /      
     |       |  \        \                                /  /      
     |       |   \        \   Weight is only of use      /  /    
     |       |    \        |  in steamrollers.           o /          
     +--o o--|     \       |             - Uffa Fox     'U~    
    .|_[]{ }_|------+======'                             )\
   M|_______________|                                   -;---'
   U       H
           U

There was a builder in the bay area years ago, might have been the Meritex guy
who was building and selling cedar veneer sailboards. He was laying the veneers
over a styro blank. The boards were awsome looking but not real sure about the
weight factor. He also didn't sell many and stopped building them. As I
mentioned in an earlier post, I built a wood west system boat years ago, but it
was  "tortured" plywood, not one of the cedar veneer variety. I think it would
take a lot of craftsmanship and labor to build a cedar veneer sailboard. The
strength and weight would be a mystery until the end product. The Starboard
wood deck boards are definately a one or two ply plywood. Sounds like a good
way to make a tough lite deck.

I think you are being optimistic on this one.  I actually
have worked on both.  Perhaps we have different ideas
of what maintenance is.  It is easy to make dings in
fiberglass boats disappear completely.  It is not so easy in
wood, unless the wood is painted over anyway, but then
you lose the beauty of wood.

I meant a super-thin layer of glass (1/8th ounce cloth, maybe? I don't
remember), which essentially disappears when soaked in epoxy.  
Its weave is only visible in bright sunlight when viewed from certain
angles.  
You don't lose much of the beauty of the wood.
Maybe I shouldn't have said often, as I don't really know
what percentage of wooden boats have this.

 >

I agree.

Stergios

--

Dept. of Physics and Astronomy        
http://www.physics.unc.edu/~papadaks
Univ. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, (o) (919) 962 7298
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-3255             (f) (919) 962 0480