Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by Sting-a-ling-a-ding-do » Sat, 03 Feb 1996 04:00:00


    I was wondering what the consensus is on how Mast Stiffness affects the
performance for a given sail.  For example, if a particular sail requires a
IMCS of 28, what would the affect be if a IMCS of 30 is used or an IMCS of 25?
How is this in regards to stability, top-end speed, low-end power? Which is
better for low wind pumping to a plane? Which is better for hi wind survival?
Which is better for heavy weights? Which is better for light weights?

    L8r...

---
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|                    "Windsurfing is life, the rest is just details."         |
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Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by sailquik US 370 » Sat, 03 Feb 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>      I was wondering what the consensus is on how Mast Stiffness affects the
>  performance for a given sail.  For example, if a particular sail requires a
>  IMCS of 28, what would the affect be if a IMCS of 30 is used or an IMCS of 25?
>  How is this in regards to stability, top-end speed, low-end power? Which is
>  better for low wind pumping to a plane? Which is better for hi wind survival?
>  Which is better for heavy weights? Which is better for light weights?

1. If you use an MCS 30 mast in a sail designed for MCS 28 you can expect the following:
Design shape of the sail will be hard to achieve, ie the head and tack will have the correct
shape when the mid section of the luff is not correctly loaded hence the centerline crease or seam
on the luff will have a greater angle to the rig centerline than the designer intended. If you persist in
downhauling the sail past this point the head will fall off further than design and the foot will be stretched
beyond design when the luff midsection is at the correct angle. Can you sail it with either of these mistrim
conditions? Yes definitely but it will not work as well either underpowered or overpowered.

2. If you use an MCS 25 mast in a sail designed for MCS 28 you will get nearly the same results as above
except that the luff midsection will flatten out long before the head and foot are properly loaded hence the
design "twist" in the head won't work as the designer intended. You can still sail it but once again the
performance will be diminished and the sail will be harder to handle.

3. Rig stability, top-end speed, and low end power will be diminished overall if the proper mast  stiffness is
not used. Some mast incompatability can be trimmed out using different downhaul, outhaul and batten tension
tweaks but in order to get stability, either the top end or low end will be compromised. If you rig for top end,
the low end will suck and vice versa. You can't get both, even with the correct mast it will always be a compromise
to make the lift/drag ratio in the sail fit the conditions. You can flatten for top end or you can fatten for low end
but either way the extremes are somewhat mutually exclusive.  Rigging the sail on the correct stiffness mast to
the designers measurements works really well on North sails and gives you the best blend of stability, top end
and power. But you will still need to tweak or change sails as the conditions change. This is why the highest
level course racers have trimmer lines so they can tweak the downhaul and outhaul on the fly during a race to
optimize it for changes in wind speed and for different points of sail.

4. A stiff mast is better for pumping as it rebounds more quickly and  doesn't flex as much during the "pump". Stiff masts
also seem to work better for heavy weights during pumping  onto a plane as they have the body strength and weight
to get the most out of the mast.
A softer mast is bettter for top end  in gusty conditions; for lighter less powerful sailors;  and for high wind survival
as they bend sooner and will let the top of the sail twist off  earlier.
Another thing to consider is the bend ratio (flex top vs constant curve). This can have a big effect on your ability to
rig the sail and also to get the most out of it.
I'm a light weight (150#)  so I have found that the 94 North Xcellerators' which have a little more flex in the top
( Larry Herbig says about 5% more top flex) than the 95 Xcellerators. The flex top 94's work a little better for me as
I will never be able to generate the  the power of the big tall guys and on the top end having a little more twist a little earlier
enables me to stay sheeted in a little longer and use the twist to generate additional speed.  I find the 95 constant curves
are a bit more stable, but I get launched more often.

sailquik US 3704
F2/CFX/North Sails/North Masts/True Ames/Rainbow Duffy Series/
Chinook/Wavelength/Body Glove/SSA/ Free Advice on all of above.

Phone= (301) 872-9459

 
 
 

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by dcovene » Sun, 04 Feb 1996 04:00:00

        My Rushwind smaller sails are made for flex-top masts.
Using FiberSnap flex-tops, they give everything I could ask. Using
old constant flex mast produces lousy shape and performance. Since I
Use a constant curve fibersnap on the bigger Rushwinds, (7.2 & up),
I noticed a terrific degredation when I added an old extension to
make it fit a 10.0.. the conclusion is obvious.The sleeve and mast
need to match, and as the sail becomes powered, the mast and sleeve
bend at differing rates, if not matched well. A sail designed for a
constant curve mast flexes too little with respect to a constant curve
mast with too much stiffness, and the leech falls off. Use a flex top
on it, and the top falls off so pronouncedly that the sail becomes a rag!
        Point? Its stiffness, design flex, and, match of cuff and mast design
flex that determine performance, not one alone.
Quote:

>     I was wondering what the consensus is on how Mast Stiffness affects the
> performance for a given sail.  


 
 
 

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by Peter Watkinso » Wed, 07 Feb 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
(Sting-a-ling-a-ding-dong) writes:

>     I was wondering what the consensus is on how Mast Stiffness affects
the
> performance for a given sail.  For example, if a particular sail requires
a
> IMCS of 28, what would the affect be if a IMCS of 30 is used or an IMCS of
25?
> How is this in regards to stability, top-end speed, low-end power? Which
is
> better for low wind pumping to a plane? Which is better for hi wind
survival?
> Which is better for heavy weights? Which is better for light weights?

>     L8r...

 Some sailors use softer masts in stronger winds because it gives the sail
more twist to deal with the gusts. Also more twist in the sail will reduce
the camber in the body. A reduced camber will mean less power but more
control.

 Pete

 http://www.w3w.com/3w/3wcc01.html

 
 
 

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by Paul A. Billing » Wed, 07 Feb 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>    I was wondering what the consensus is on how Mast Stiffness affects the
>performance for a given sail.  For example, if a particular sail requires a
>IMCS of 28, what would the affect be if a IMCS of 30 is used or an IMCS of 25?
>How is this in regards to stability, top-end speed, low-end power? Which is
>better for low wind pumping to a plane? Which is better for hi wind survival?
>Which is better for heavy weights? Which is better for light weights?

Lots of questions!  My general thoughts (opionions!):
A softer mast will make the sail flatter than normal, and
change in behavior is due mostly to this fact.  I will cast
things in terms of using a softer mast.

Top-end speed is increased with a softer mast.  This is quite
significant.  In my experience, I used a shorter mast as well
which "softened" it even further.  (Nominal was 460/28, used
430/25).

Upwindability was better.  Again, a flatter sail has lower
drag.  This assumes you have sufficient windspeed.  

Power is reduced for low wind and getting on a plane.  You will
fall off plane quicker in the holes.  A direct result is that
pumping effectiveness is less.  Head twist plays a detrimental
role as well.  (See next point.)

Stability I think is increased to a point, but I'm not sure.  
On one hand the flex will allow the sail to flatten more in
gusts and twist the head.  The flip side is that your sail is
changing shape, and you have to adjust.  I think the former
plays a bigger role.

Acceleration is less.  Again, the top twists off more easily.  
If it held its shape, you would accelerate more.  (Related to
power.)

Survival mode: Softer is flatter, more stable.  The rig is not
as "tightly strung." and may take more abuse before something
breaks.  This part is pure speculation.

Heavy/Light weights: Lighter folks should use a softer mast.  
Fat boys need lots of power to get going, lightweights don't.

You can probably go down in stiffness further than you can go
up.  That is, if the nominal mast is 28, you can get to 25 or
24 (difference of 3-4), but I wouldn't go much past 30
(diff of 2-3).

Paul -- US366 (Maui)

 
 
 

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by Tae Su » Thu, 08 Feb 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
>Top-end speed is increased with a softer mast.  This is quite
>significant.  In my experience, I used a shorter mast as well
>which "softened" it even further.  (Nominal was 460/28, used
>430/25).

Paul,

I would beg to differ with this one, as a general statement, which seems to
contradict the rest of your message. A softer mast would generally provide
less power because of the tendency to twist off more often. You may be
faster with a softer mast on a particular sail in overpowered conditions
because it's forgiving qualities. I think you'd be faster on a slightly
smaller sail with the right mast. I.e. it's more important to have the right
mast for your sail, size, and ability.

As a lightweight, I sail better on masts that are at the low end or 1 or 2
mcs point below the recommended for the sail. However, if you're heavier,
you generate greater bending forces on the mast so you need the mast to be
stiffer - at the upper end of the mcs range for the sail - to go fast
otherwise it spends to much time in twist off mode - not the best shape for
a sail.  

Good sailing,

Tae

 
 
 

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by John Bernardo P1 » Fri, 09 Feb 1996 04:00:00

|> Many manufacturers have masts with the same stiffness, but different
|> percentages of carbon.  Has anyone noticed a difference based on
|> carbon content, besides price?
|>
|> Rob
|>

Yes, weight is reduced. I'm eagerly looking forward to trying
out the '96 90% carbon Pryde masts.
--
Paul Scrutton - My views may not agree with those
                of employer.

 
 
 

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by sailqui » Fri, 09 Feb 1996 04:00:00

Yes, usually the higher the carbon content the lighter the
weight, and the more likely it will break in the surf.
Higher carbon content usually results in thinner cross section
for a given bend ratio. Less carbon, more glass results in a softer
more flexible mast that can stand the abuses of the surf.
--
sailquik US 3704
F2/CFX/North Sails/North Masts/True Ames/Rainbow Duffy Series/
Chinook/Wavelength/Body Glove/SSA/ Free Advice on all of above.

Phone= (301) 872-9459
 
 
 

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by Rob Darm » Fri, 09 Feb 1996 04:00:00

Many manufacturers have masts with the same stiffness, but different
percentages of carbon.  Has anyone noticed a difference based on
carbon content, besides price?

Rob

 
 
 

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by Gary Wo » Wed, 14 Feb 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>Case in point :
>looking +- 4 foot wave, no ploblem hold onto sail tip and duck, done this
>before right? BUT NOT WITH A CARBON MAST !!!!
>The result was a long swim back and another dent in my ( limited) Boardsailing
>budget.
>Carbon masts are excelent over flat or choppy water, hoever they do not belong
>or last in the surf.

I have heard others dispute this, but I suppose it really depends on the
mast.  I must say I was surprised last year when mast shopping for a
30% recreational carbon... I looked at several current models and
found them only half a pound of so lighter than my Vglass NP wave mast.
(and my Vglass will survive a close nuclear strike...)
With the major price difference, I decided to get another (used) Vglass.
I can do without the 'instant' flex characteristics of a carbon mast
(at least 30%) in the slalom/bump conditions I will use it in, and
pocket $200 easy to boot.
 
 
 

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by Sieberhag » Wed, 14 Feb 1996 04:00:00

Case in point :
This afternoon 30-35 knots, Swartkops river mouth, flat on the inside 4 feet
swells breaking on the sandbar.
4,6 Art Attack with MCS 26 Art carbon slalom. Should be great?
Not Quite.  After about 15 minutes a fluffed jump on the over the sandbar
results in me and board in the water just in front of a not so dangerous
looking +- 4 foot wave, no ploblem hold onto sail tip and duck, done this
before right? BUT NOT WITH A CARBON MAST !!!!
The result was a long swim back and another dent in my ( limited) Boardsailing
budget.
Carbon masts are excelent over flat or choppy water, hoever they do not belong
or last in the surf.
Hope I can save someone else a couple of hundred dollars with this advice.
Keep Sailing

                      Monty Spindler rules !

                                (Even if his masts break so easily)


 
 
 

Mast Stiffness vs. Sail Performance

Post by Colas Nahab » Thu, 15 Feb 1996 04:00:00


writes:
|> This afternoon 30-35 knots, Swartkops river mouth, flat on the inside 4 feet
|> |> swells breaking on the sandbar.
|> 4,6 Art Attack with MCS 26 Art carbon slalom. Should be great?

mmm... the problem here is "slalom", not "carbon".
carbon wave masts are very sturdy, I have yet to break my north space tech
(30% carbon) in european waves.

--
Colas Nahaboo, Koala, Dyade (Bull) INRIA Sophia,
http://www.inria.fr/koala/colas