starboard formula

starboard formula

Post by sailqui » Tue, 23 May 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
> wife and i need second light wind board. love our techno. how much low > end will we gain and high end give up with the  formula. she's not > comfortable with more that 7.5.  bill

Bill:
You may be able to plane in as little as 7 knots on a drafty 9.5
sail (depending on your weight i.e. < 180 lbs).
If you weigh more, get a larger sail and you will still plane
in under 8 knots of steady wind.
These boards are all about sailing the apparent wind, so a
little time headed off wind, and a couple of pumps and you
will be fully planing, and able to come right back upwind.
I've had the Formula planing in under 6 knots on a 9.5 Retro and
a 10.7 Sailworks X-T2 and I weigh about 160-165 lbs.

You wife may be able to get going in a steady 8 on a 7.5 if she's
fairly light.
So, I's say that's pretty close to 50% sooner.
Most people with 7.5's can't get the Techno going in <12 knots,
but with a pump or 2, and a drafty 7.5 like a Sailworks Retro
she can most likely get going in 8 knots.
Since I'm not sure when you switch from your Techno to a smaller board
(my guess is at around 18-20 knots, you will be giving up nothing
in terms of top end range with the Formula 155.
Heavy weight racers are sailing the Formula up to 25 knots.
I've done 20+ knots on the Formula at 165#, and as I have
become more familiar with the board, I consistently stay on it all the
way to a steady 18 with higher gusts. Drop down to a 54-56 cm fin,
and with a 6.5-7.5 Retro tuned for top end/overpowered, the Formula
provides a far smoother ride and a lot more speed that most folks
can imagine.

Why is she not comfortable with larger than a 7.5m2
Are you using cam sails or something?
Have her try an 8.0 0r 8.5 Retro, on a >90%  carbon content mast
and maybe a carbon boom, and she can handle it probably more easily
than the 7.5 she's using now. And, it will have lot's more low end
power if tuned for low end, and nearly equivalent top end
if tuned for overpowered sailing.
Come to one of the Sailworks/Starboard Demos and try them out.
They are definitely planing, even with larger sailors, when nothing
else will.
Only one board and one sail really got fully planing today at the
Canadian Hole. Starboard Formula 155/8.5 Retro!
Oh, and most people don't know that the Formula 155 is now winning
Formula Windsurfing races all over the world in amateur and regional
competitions in windspeeds up to 20 knots.
They are beating the AHD Diamond 78's, the RRD "Monsters" and the
Thommen XXL's on a very regular basis.
Hope this help's
        Roger
later, Roger

--
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 7011
Sailworks/Starboard/F2/MPB/Chinook/Kokatat/DaKine

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by Davor Ofne » Tue, 23 May 2000 04:00:00

Hi,

I've decided to get a light wind board and I'm currently deciding between
AHD Free Diamond 77 and Starboard Formula.
I'm a 78kg intermediate owning an Axxis 267 which I comfortably use with 5.6
and 6.6 in 15+ knots of wind.
I'm not into racing but am interested in early planing board with ~9.2 and
~7.5 rigs.
Browsing the web and the newsgroups I get the opinion the Formula is
primarily early planer and FD 77 is comfort and maneouvre orientated. In
your opinion, is it better to sacrifice early planing or maneouverability?
How does the Formula jibe?
If you are planing in 8 knots, is the board speed sufficient to get you
through a jibe?
If you're having hard time to jibe in 8 knots, isn't it better to get a more
manoeuvre orientated board that planes comfortably in 10+ knots, jibes
better and is even able to jump.
Which sail size would you recommend for the stock fin for the Formula and
which fin size for a 7.5-8.0 rig.

Thanks.

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by Steve Prett » Tue, 23 May 2000 04:00:00

Roger,

You said "Come to one of the Sailworks/Starboard Demos and try them out.
They are definitely planing, even with larger sailors, when nothing
else will."

How do we find out the where and when of these demos?

Thanks

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by Ellen Falle » Tue, 23 May 2000 04:00:00

Davor,
  As the owner of a Formula, I can say that it is pretty darn
comfortable and maneouvrable to sail, AND it planes pretty early. I
don't think you will be sacrificing either feature with a Forumula. The
Formula has these neat bevels along the rail in the center section of
the board that allows it to turn beautifully and respond nicely to foot
steering. The designers seem to have taken all aspects into account when
designing the board, so it really does do it all well.
  The Formula jibes really well too. Of course, neither board will
provide a "narrow board" jibe and you do have to get used to taking a
bigger step across to initiate the carve! Any "widestyle" board will
require you to do a few things a little differently.
  Earlier in May, I was out on the Formula and got planing in very light
wind. I did a nice jibe, and came out moving fast enough to just give it
a few pumps and get planing again. But it was intriguing to find how
fast I had been going in so little wind, and I had to remember that I
was NOT sailing in real wind but largely in apparent wind and adjust my
jibe accordingly.
  Having managed a chop hop or 2 on the Formula, I see no reason why you
couldn't jump it. With either board, getting the loooong fin out of the
water is more the question!
  I'm a bit lighter than you are, and I have used the Formula with 9.0,
7.5 and 6.5 sails. I've also used the stock fin with all of these sails.
On one of the 6.5 days, I would probably have been happier with a
shorter fin, but that's life. The board's width at the tail gives you
plenty of leverage over the long fin. The limiting factor on the fin is
the water depth and weediness.
  Hope this helps,
Ellen

   (snipped info)

Quote:
> Browsing the web and the newsgroups I get the opinion the Formula is
> primarily early planer and FD 77 is comfort and maneouvre orientated. In
> your opinion, is it better to sacrifice early planing or maneouverability?
> How does the Formula jibe?
> If you are planing in 8 knots, is the board speed sufficient to get you
> through a jibe?
> If you're having hard time to jibe in 8 knots, isn't it better to get a more
> manoeuvre orientated board that planes comfortably in 10+ knots, jibes
> better and is even able to jump.
> Which sail size would you recommend for the stock fin for the Formula and
> which fin size for a 7.5-8.0 rig.

> Thanks.

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by Ellen Falle » Tue, 23 May 2000 04:00:00

Steve,
  Ask, and you shall recieve an answer. This weekend, on Saturday, May
27, at Extreme Windsurfing outside of Atlantic City, NJ, there will be a
Starboards and Sailworks demo all day. Same deal on Sat, July 8.
  Ellen

Quote:

> Roger,

> You said "Come to one of the Sailworks/Starboard Demos and try them out.
> They are definitely planing, even with larger sailors, when nothing
> else will."

> How do we find out the where and when of these demos?

> Thanks

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by sailqui » Tue, 23 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
> You said "Come to one of the Sailworks/Starboard Demos and try them out.
> They are definitely planing, even with larger sailors, when nothing
> else will."

> How do we find out the where and when of these demos?

Steve:
Since it's still the regular spring demo season until mid June
at least, the full schedule is not completely firmed up yet.
But what I know so far is:

Sat. May 27th at  Extreme Windsurfing, Lakes Bay New Jersey.
http://www.extremewindsurfing.com/

Sun. July 11 at Triangle Boardsailing Club, Lake Jordan, Raleigh NC
http://jollyroger.snap.com/windsurf/

Sat. June 17th at Windsurfing Hampton, Long Island NY
http://www.w-surf.com/

Sat. and Sun. June 24th and 25th Adirondak Boardsailing Club/
Windsurfing Saratoga, Hague Event, Lake George in Upstate NY
(North of Albany).
Windsurfing Saratoga Gansevoort 518-798-SAIL

Sat. July 8th at Extreme Windsurfing, Lakes Bay, NJ
http://www.extremewindsurfing.com/

Sat. July 22nd Triangle Boardsailing Club, Lake Wheeler LTW (Learn to
Windsurf)
& demo (If there's
http://jollyroger.snap.com/windsurf/

I am currently working with shops and clubs in the following areas to
firm up dates
for additional events.
Calf Pasture Beach in CT
Lighthouse Park in New Haven CT
Ninigret Pond, in Charlestown R.I.
East Of Maui in Annapolis, MD and Dewey Beach, Del.

If you have a local shop or club/group and would like to see about
scheduling a
Sailworks/Starboard lite air demo, send me an email and we will see what
can be
worked out.
Regards, Roger

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by sailqui » Tue, 23 May 2000 04:00:00

Hi Davor ,

Quote:
> I've decided to get a light wind board and I'm currently deciding > > between AHD Free Diamond 77 and Starboard Formula.
> I'm a 78kg intermediate owning an Axxis 267 which I comfortably use with > 5.6 and 6.6 in 15+ knots of wind.
> I'm not into racing but am interested in early planing board with ~9.2 > > and ~7.5 rigs.
> Browsing the web and the newsgroups I get the opinion the Formula is
> primarily early planer and FD 77 is comfort and maneouvre orientated.

The Formula is an early planing design, yes, but it's a whole lot more.
Part of the success is the "rail bevels" Ellen spoke of, part of it
is the wide footstrap placement which allows the use and control of a
58 cm fin. Also, the board has one of the shortest planing surfaces
out there, and that equal alot of speed and control all the way up to
windspeeds around 20 knots and boardspeeds well over 30 knots.
So the Formula is as fast or faster, earlier, handles the chop as well
or better, and once you make the adjustment to the greater width, will
carve jibes very nicely in less windspeed than most of the other boards
in this class.

Quote:
> In your opinion, is it better to sacrifice early planing or maneouverability?

Why sacrifice either? Yes, there are some differences, but once you
learn to deal with them, the range will be nearly the same, the ability
to plane early will favor the Formula, the speeds will be the same with
a slight edge for the Formula.
But these are my impressions. You need to get out an demo both the
boards,
in a variety of conditions with a few different sail sizes. Only then
can
you make a truly objective decision.

Quote:
> How does the Formula jibe?

Very nicely, once you get used to stepping further across the board and
not so far forward. Stepping forward pushes too much rail (and rocker)
into the water and tends to kill the speed. Keeping the Formula in it's
planing attitude (fore and aft trim angle) allows the board to just
cruise thru planing jibes were other boards will fall off plane like a
rock.
Quote:
> If you are planing in 8 knots, is the board speed sufficient to get you
> through a jibe?

Yes, because in 8 knots true windspeed, the board will be going
about 16 knots, if you fall off a little to maintain (or increase)
your entry speed. This is plenty to carry you thru the carve and sail
flip and you come out of it on a plane. Tight jibes will tend to kill
more speed than larger radius jibes, so in the lighter winds, nice
wide radius carves are easier to come out of planing.
When the wind gets up to 10 knots and the board speed approaches 20
knots,
you can crank some pretty tight jibes on the Formula, basically BEFORE
anyone else is able to do any kind of carve jibe at all.

Quote:
> If you're having hard time to jibe in 8 knots, isn't it better to get a > more manoeuvre orientated board that planes comfortably in 10+ knots, > jibes better and is even able to jump.

Guess that's completely up to you. But the Formula can be jumped,
and jibed with as much ease as the Diamond 77 once you adjust your
technique (which you will have to do to some degree with the 77 as well
if you are accustomed to jibing <60 cm wide boards).

Quote:
> Which sail size would you recommend for the stock fin for the Formula > and which fin size for a 7.5-8.0 rig.

The Formula 155 works best with a 58 cm fin. For the earliest planing
and faster and higher upwind in < 10 knots, a 60 cm fin is useful.
The stock Curtis Racing 58 cm fin will work fine with sails from
10.7m2 down to 7.5m2.
I came up with a little technical gem about why the wide boards work
best with the big fins.
If you consider the distance from the fore/aft centerline of the board
out to the outside of the one of the footstraps as one leg of an
triangle, then 1/2 the span of the fin needs to be approximately equal
to this distance. If the footstraps are further off center than 1/2 the
fin
span, the fin will not develop the necessary lift to balance the
weight of the sailor that far off center. Conversely if the footstraps
are set closer to the center of the board and the 1/2 fin span length
is significantly greater than the centerline to outside footstrap length
you will not be able to control the fin as it will develop more lift
than
you can control.
So if you lay your fin across the footstraps on your board, the fin span
needs to be => than the width across the outside of the footstraps.
If the fin is significantly shorter, you won't be able to develop the
lift required to plane early and go up wind at high angles.
If your fin span is far greater than the width of the tail of the board,
you won't have the leverage to control that much fin at higher speeds
and
the board will "tailwalk".
AS always, if learn to "finesse" the fin, even a huge 55 cm or larger
span fin, you will be "in control" at much greater speeds than you ever
thought possible.
Think about this. It's what makes the new wide tail, short planing
surface boards, with the huge fins and very large sails work in less
than 10 knots.

Later, Roger
--
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 7011
Sailworks/Starboard/F2/MPB/Chinook/Kokatat/DaKine

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by duboi » Wed, 24 May 2000 04:00:00

Hi Davor,

I can't answer to all your questions about the Formula but as I own a GO
I can answer your question about jumping such a wide board with large
fin.
Basically, when you see the steep chop in front of you and you decide to
jump it, you know that there is a good chance you might***up
completely your landing and do a massive catapult.
Jumping is not a problem, but controlling an 85 cm wide board in the air
is another story. Trying to attempt landing on a 54cm fin is also quite
interesting. In general, the rule of thumb is bear off the wind before
hitting the ramp you plan to jump. This will allow the fin to re-enter
the water smoothly when landing.
If you try to benefit of the wind to lift the board higher in the air
(by putting the board into the wind just as you lift off the chop) like
done on a normal shortboard, then your in for a massive catapult. There
is no way you will be able to control the board. There is so much
surface to catch that the wind that it will throw the nose of the board
downwind and you'll land on your butt...
But successfully jumping such a wide board and clearing the fin out of
the water impresses everyone at the beach. Its a bit like the final jump
 the Killer Wahle does in "Free Willy"... Truly impressive.
I've managed to do jumps of about 1 meter high with the GO using a 9.0m
sail; I wouldn't try anything higher...
Jumping the Formula or the AHD 77 however, is not recommended as they
are built to be light... not that strong.

Hope this helps,
Francois

Quote:

> Hi,

> I've decided to get a light wind board and I'm currently deciding between
> AHD Free Diamond 77 and Starboard Formula.
> I'm a 78kg intermediate owning an Axxis 267 which I comfortably use with 5.6
> and 6.6 in 15+ knots of wind.
> I'm not into racing but am interested in early planing board with ~9.2 and
> ~7.5 rigs.
> Browsing the web and the newsgroups I get the opinion the Formula is
> primarily early planer and FD 77 is comfort and maneouvre orientated. In
> your opinion, is it better to sacrifice early planing or maneouverability?
> How does the Formula jibe?
> If you are planing in 8 knots, is the board speed sufficient to get you
> through a jibe?
> If you're having hard time to jibe in 8 knots, isn't it better to get a more
> manoeuvre orientated board that planes comfortably in 10+ knots, jibes
> better and is even able to jump.
> Which sail size would you recommend for the stock fin for the Formula and
> which fin size for a 7.5-8.0 rig.

> Thanks.

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by Elizabeth Simo » Thu, 25 May 2000 04:00:00

Ellen,
At what point would you switch to a smaller board for
recreational sailing? I have a 7.5 and 6.2 and would like a board
that's fun to sail with both sails. I'll eventually get a 9.0 for
lighter days if I get a board that big. (along with new mast etc)

--
Elizabeth Simon

return address is invalid.

Quote:

>Davor,
>  As the owner of a Formula, I can say that it is pretty darn
>comfortable and maneouvrable to sail, AND it planes pretty
early. I
>don't think you will be sacrificing either feature with a
Forumula. The
>Formula has these neat bevels along the rail in the center
section of
>the board that allows it to turn beautifully and respond nicely
to foot
>steering. The designers seem to have taken all aspects into
account when
>designing the board, so it really does do it all well.
>  The Formula jibes really well too. Of course, neither board
will
>provide a "narrow board" jibe and you do have to get used to
taking a
>bigger step across to initiate the carve! Any "widestyle" board
will
>require you to do a few things a little differently.
>  Earlier in May, I was out on the Formula and got planing in
very light
>wind. I did a nice jibe, and came out moving fast enough to just
give it
>a few pumps and get planing again. But it was intriguing to find
how
>fast I had been going in so little wind, and I had to remember
that I
>was NOT sailing in real wind but largely in apparent wind and
adjust my
>jibe accordingly.
>  Having managed a chop hop or 2 on the Formula, I see no reason
why you
>couldn't jump it. With either board, getting the loooong fin out
of the
>water is more the question!
>  I'm a bit lighter than you are, and I have used the Formula
with 9.0,
>7.5 and 6.5 sails. I've also used the stock fin with all of
these sails.
>On one of the 6.5 days, I would probably have been happier with
a
>shorter fin, but that's life. The board's width at the tail
gives you
>plenty of leverage over the long fin. The limiting factor on the
fin is
>the water depth and weediness.
>  Hope this helps,
>Ellen


>   (snipped info)
>> Browsing the web and the newsgroups I get the opinion the
Formula is
>> primarily early planer and FD 77 is comfort and maneouvre
orientated. In
>> your opinion, is it better to sacrifice early planing or
maneouverability?
>> How does the Formula jibe?
>> If you are planing in 8 knots, is the board speed sufficient
to get you
>> through a jibe?
>> If you're having hard time to jibe in 8 knots, isn't it better
to get a more
>> manoeuvre orientated board that planes comfortably in 10+
knots, jibes
>> better and is even able to jump.
>> Which sail size would you recommend for the stock fin for the
Formula and
>> which fin size for a 7.5-8.0 rig.

>> Thanks.

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by Bill Kli » Fri, 26 May 2000 04:00:00

Hi Roger,

I am impressed with your explanlnation. It is pretty close to what works.

The weight of the sailor in the triangle is important along with sail tuning.

By the way, this project we have going with Jim Drake and  Starboard is bearing
fruit as evidenced by the comments on the Formula. The board design is well
thought out and the fins are carefully tested  carefully.

We have several different aspect ratios, essential to fine tune for conditions,
sailors, and sail sizes.

Thanks again for the comments. People need these explanations to better
understand
Bill Kline
Gorge Sport USA
Curtis Performance Fins, Orca Fins
Hood River, OR USA

ph/541 387 2649  fax/541 386 1715

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by Ellen Falle » Fri, 26 May 2000 04:00:00

Elizabeth,
  In keeping with "Real Woman" training, I open my van and say "what do
I feel like sailing today?" or "omigod, I've got NOTHING to sail today!"
  Actually, what I sail when depends on the wind and water conditions,
and the circumstances (race, recreation, teaching, freestyle practice),
how lazy or challenged I feel, and the temperature. I mostly sail on a
salt water "pond" similar to the Sound at Hatteras, or in protected
coastal waters, and in thermal winds or gusty frontal winds.
  If the wind starts out light, and then picks up, I stay with the
Formula in order to practice sailing it in higher winds. Same thing for
the GO, especially if I've had it out for teaching lessons (I can just
switch from the trainer fins and go). I have a smaller fin I can switch
to also.
  If the wind picks up and stays up, I might switch to my 115 liter
board and smaller sail. Or if the wind is already blowing 6.5, and is
not full of holes, and/or if there is significant chop, I'll start with
the 115 liter board or a smaller one.
  If its cold, and dry suit weather, I'll go with the biggest board
possible.
  The top of my sail range is 9.0, 7.5, 6.5, and somehow I seem to be on
either the 9.0 or the 6.5 lately. There are days when it is blowing 7.5.
In that case, I would probably take either of the wide boards just
because I enjoy them SO much. But at that sail size, I could go either
way with boards depending on the other factors.
  I don't know what your usual conditions are (lake/ocean,
flat/chop/swells, steady/gusty wind) or your size, so it's hard to say
what might work for you. For my conditions, if I had to pick something
to go with the sail sizes you have (and the possibility of a 9.0), I'd
take the Formula (or GO) and something in the 110-115 liter range. If
you weren't going to get a 9.0 sail, I'd take something in the 140 liter
range (and these will often take a 9.0 as well).
  I hope this helps some!
Ellen
Quote:

> Ellen,
> At what point would you switch to a smaller board for
> recreational sailing? I have a 7.5 and 6.2 and would like a board
> that's fun to sail with both sails. I'll eventually get a 9.0 for
> lighter days if I get a board that big. (along with new mast etc)

> --
> Elizabeth Simon

> return address is invalid.


> >Davor,
> >  As the owner of a Formula, I can say that it is pretty darn
> >comfortable and maneouvrable to sail, AND it planes pretty
> early. I
> >don't think you will be sacrificing either feature with a
> Forumula. The
> >Formula has these neat bevels along the rail in the center
> section of
> >the board that allows it to turn beautifully and respond nicely
> to foot
> >steering. The designers seem to have taken all aspects into
> account when
> >designing the board, so it really does do it all well.
> >  The Formula jibes really well too. Of course, neither board
> will
> >provide a "narrow board" jibe and you do have to get used to
> taking a
> >bigger step across to initiate the carve! Any "widestyle" board
> will
> >require you to do a few things a little differently.
> >  Earlier in May, I was out on the Formula and got planing in
> very light
> >wind. I did a nice jibe, and came out moving fast enough to just
> give it
> >a few pumps and get planing again. But it was intriguing to find
> how
> >fast I had been going in so little wind, and I had to remember
> that I
> >was NOT sailing in real wind but largely in apparent wind and
> adjust my
> >jibe accordingly.
> >  Having managed a chop hop or 2 on the Formula, I see no reason
> why you
> >couldn't jump it. With either board, getting the loooong fin out
> of the
> >water is more the question!
> >  I'm a bit lighter than you are, and I have used the Formula
> with 9.0,
> >7.5 and 6.5 sails. I've also used the stock fin with all of
> these sails.
> >On one of the 6.5 days, I would probably have been happier with
> a
> >shorter fin, but that's life. The board's width at the tail
> gives you
> >plenty of leverage over the long fin. The limiting factor on the
> fin is
> >the water depth and weediness.
> >  Hope this helps,
> >Ellen


> >   (snipped info)
> >> Browsing the web and the newsgroups I get the opinion the
> Formula is
> >> primarily early planer and FD 77 is comfort and maneouvre
> orientated. In
> >> your opinion, is it better to sacrifice early planing or
> maneouverability?
> >> How does the Formula jibe?
> >> If you are planing in 8 knots, is the board speed sufficient
> to get you
> >> through a jibe?
> >> If you're having hard time to jibe in 8 knots, isn't it better
> to get a more
> >> manoeuvre orientated board that planes comfortably in 10+
> knots, jibes
> >> better and is even able to jump.
> >> Which sail size would you recommend for the stock fin for the
> Formula and
> >> which fin size for a 7.5-8.0 rig.

> >> Thanks.

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by Ellen Falle » Fri, 26 May 2000 04:00:00

Bill,
  I'm looking forward to getting a DC33 fin as soon as they are back in
stock at Island Sports. Lots of people are asking about the fins
especially those who have to deal with shallow water sailing. I love the
board but not the cost of getting our spot dredged to fit the 58 cm fin.
  Ellen
Quote:

> Hi Roger,

> I am impressed with your explanlnation. It is pretty close to what works.

> The weight of the sailor in the triangle is important along with sail tuning.

> By the way, this project we have going with Jim Drake and  Starboard is bearing
> fruit as evidenced by the comments on the Formula. The board design is well
> thought out and the fins are carefully tested  carefully.

> We have several different aspect ratios, essential to fine tune for conditions,
> sailors, and sail sizes.

> Thanks again for the comments. People need these explanations to better
> understand
> Bill Kline
> Gorge Sport USA
> Curtis Performance Fins, Orca Fins
> Hood River, OR USA

> ph/541 387 2649  fax/541 386 1715

 
 
 

starboard formula

Post by SURFMAN H » Fri, 26 May 2000 04:00:00

Bill.
We are sailing the Formula with 65cm and 70cm fins up in Sweden and it works
GREAT, time do some REAL big ones for 2001!!??
Regards.
Jonas
Surfman GBG
Sweden



Quote:
> Hi Roger,

> I am impressed with your explanlnation. It is pretty close to what works.

> The weight of the sailor in the triangle is important along with sail
tuning.

> By the way, this project we have going with Jim Drake and  Starboard is
bearing
> fruit as evidenced by the comments on the Formula. The board design is
well
> thought out and the fins are carefully tested  carefully.

> We have several different aspect ratios, essential to fine tune for
conditions,
> sailors, and sail sizes.

> Thanks again for the comments. People need these explanations to better
> understand
> Bill Kline
> Gorge Sport USA
> Curtis Performance Fins, Orca Fins
> Hood River, OR USA

> ph/541 387 2649  fax/541 386 1715