Sport Today

by **Revi** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

Just a warning to all that Mistral/Naish have not worked out all their
production problems as they would like for us all to believe.

I received one of the first Naish 8.7 Freerides late December 1999. I keep
accurate records of numbers of days on the water. I take good care of my
boards; very diligent about opening and closing the vent plug.
Unfortunately, my board lasted exactly 53 user days (some of these were
short sessions, others longer). Then, two weeks ago 80% of the bottom
completely delammed. Not enough resin between the two layers of divinicil
(sp?) and the styro blank.

Maybe I'm the only one, but doesn't it seem that a $1545 board should last a
little longer than 15 months and 53 days of usage? Of course, Mistral will
not replace this one . . . it's beyond the 12 month warantee.

I'm starting to believe that custom, handmade boards are the only way to go.

Does anyone else feel ripped off by Mistra?

Revis

by **NLW TFW** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

Re:"I'm starting to believe that custom, handmade boards are the only way to
go.'

No guarantee there, either ... at least not when you're in lower Baja and the
whole bottom peels off your *** hand-made $1500 stick ... at full speed ...
with only five minutes' time on it.

Mike \m/

by **RMoore** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> Not enough resin between the two layers of divinicil
>(sp?) and the styro blank.

Well, I think if there wasn't enough resin the board would have failed much
sooner. The problem is probably heat damage to the epoxy in a high stress area.
Just a little too much heat will cook the epoxy and it will loose its "stick".
Unfortunately just opening the vent plug may not be enough protection from the
heat. board in your car, on top of car or even on a hot beach can cook it.

by **Revi** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

I've had the board repaired and I'm reporting what the repairer found . . .
not just my guess. In her expert opinion the board's construction was only
"so-so," and thus the failure happened because the board was poorly made.
This never happened to other boards I've used two to three times as much in
exactly the same conditions.
Once again, I'll make the point: buying a production board is a ***
shoot, especially Mistral boards. Why should a $1545 board only last 53
days? That's about $30 a day!!!!

Quote:

> > Not enough resin between the two layers of divinicil
> >(sp?) and the styro blank.

> Well, I think if there wasn't enough resin the board would have failed
much
> sooner. The problem is probably heat damage to the epoxy in a high stress
area.
> Just a little too much heat will cook the epoxy and it will loose its
"stick".
> Unfortunately just opening the vent plug may not be enough protection
from the
> heat. board in your car, on top of car or even on a hot beach can cook it.

by **RMoore** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>I've had the board repaired and I'm reporting what the repairer found . . .
>not just my guess. In her expert opinion the board's construction was only
>"so-so," and thus the failure happened because the board was poorly made.
>This never happened to other boards I've used two to three times as much in
>exactly the same conditions.
> Once again, I'll make the point: buying a production board is a ***
>shoot, especially Mistral boards. Why should a $1545 board only last 53
>days? That's about $30 a day!!!!

I fully agree that any board that you pay 1500+ for should last considerable
longer than 53 days. You stated in your original post that there was a lack of
resin in the damaged area. It now sounds like the damage was a result from poor
craftmanship or poor engineering or cheaper material or combination of all
these factors. Maybe heat too. It seems like the manufacturers are constantly
changing where the boards are being built. This has to effect the product
especially the first ones being built. It also seems that the boards are being
built in places with very hot climates. This will effect the strength and
longevity of the resins. I ve owned a lot of mistrals, but none of the "cobra"
variety. The German ones seemed to be strong, tough and heavy. The industry
needs to come out with a three year warentee to bring consumer faith back. My
.02

by **Wolfgang Soerge** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> Just a warning to all that Mistral/Naish have not worked out all their
> production problems as they would like for us all to believe.

> I received one of the first Naish 8.7 Freerides late December 1999. I keep
> accurate records of numbers of days on the water. I take good care of my
> boards; very diligent about opening and closing the vent plug.
> Unfortunately, my board lasted exactly 53 user days (some of these were
> short sessions, others longer). Then, two weeks ago 80% of the bottom
> completely delammed. Not enough resin between the two layers of divinicil
> (sp?) and the styro blank.

53 days of use clearly isn't an acceptable lifespan for a board. Otoh.
this is the first account i hear about a Naish board completely
delaminating (as opposed to breaking during the very forsts days of use,
or being receptive for getting dings. First one would be warranty, the
second problem is common to most stiff, light constructions). If there
really was not enough resin, i think the problem would show earlier. Is
there any chance the board got a slight ding the days before, allowing
some water in? Remember, the vapor pressure of water is much higher than
that of air when heated. So if you then put the board (with vent closed
and ding repaired) into the sun, you've gotkind of a pressure cooker but
no pop-off valve. Water may also have entered the board through a badly
closed valve or through the open valve when stored wet within a
boardbag. If course, if it's hot enough, leaving the board with vent
closed and no water inside may be enough for damage, as well as air
travel or driving over bigger elevation differences. While a board may
not be instantly "inflated" / delaminated by such misshandling, dammages
accumulate and finally may show up in bottom delamination.

Maybe you can find a repair shop withsome experience and vacuum
equipment, they should be able to get it fixed, adding around 1 pound of
weight in the process.
--
Wolfgang "having had my share of vent troubles..."

by **Mike** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> needs to come out with a three year warentee to bring consumer faith back.

Man, would THAT set the custom epoxy market on its ear, especially when many
of them are regarded as one-season boards. Some custom board shapers come
right out and admit their EPS/epoxy boards are toast after one serious Gorge
season. Others don't admit it, but their boards' durability often shows it

Mike \m/

by **Revi** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

I had the board repaired by a top repair person on the west coast. I will
not reveal who unless that person chooses to. This was the assessment of the
person who repaired it (in that person's words):

"Visual: baord like new, but delam'd from just forward of fin box to just
aft
of 'Mistral' decal in bow, rail to rail
Vacuum: tight
Moisture Meter: 1/2 % (dry)
Weight: 15.86 lbs. with padz and straps
Board Weight after Repair: 17.57 lbs.

This board had absolutely no dings, was always kept in a board bag, and the
vent plug opened before driving to Lake Isabella (a 2,000 foot rise in
elevation). I never sailed it with the plug open as the test at the time of
the repair indicates. Furthermore the week, it started to delam was a cool
week running in the seventies. The person repairing it stressed that it was
simply too dry in the layers between divinicil and the styro core, a
manufacturing deficiency.

This board had replaced my Mistral Custom 260 (not made in the Cobra
factory) which I had for 4 days when it completely blew up. Reason: totally
defective vent plug; the board could not breathe. Mistral acknowledged that
and replaced it with the Naish (I had to pay a few additional dollars, which
was fair).

Because I'm at a lake with a lot of 260 to 268 size boards being used, and
because of the popularity of Mistral, we've seen an extremely high failure
rate of Mistrals (probably two out of three). I thought things would improve
with the boards being made in the Cobra factory. I don't think they've
improved all that much. BTW, the material makeup of the Naish uses excellent
materials. Mistral makes excellent shapes; so does Naish. The 8.7 is one of
the most fun boards I've ever sailed, and I have an opportunity to ride lots
of different boards. It's the workmanship that's in question, and in my
opinion its too bad.

All I can say is: BUYER BEWARE!

Revis

Quote:

> > Just a warning to all that Mistral/Naish have not worked out all their
> > production problems as they would like for us all to believe.

> > I received one of the first Naish 8.7 Freerides late December 1999. I
keep
> > accurate records of numbers of days on the water. I take good care of my
> > boards; very diligent about opening and closing the vent plug.
> > Unfortunately, my board lasted exactly 53 user days (some of these were
> > short sessions, others longer). Then, two weeks ago 80% of the bottom
> > completely delammed. Not enough resin between the two layers of
divinicil
> > (sp?) and the styro blank.

> 53 days of use clearly isn't an acceptable lifespan for a board. Otoh.
> this is the first account i hear about a Naish board completely
> delaminating (as opposed to breaking during the very forsts days of use,
> or being receptive for getting dings. First one would be warranty, the
> second problem is common to most stiff, light constructions). If there
> really was not enough resin, i think the problem would show earlier. Is
> there any chance the board got a slight ding the days before, allowing
> some water in? Remember, the vapor pressure of water is much higher than
> that of air when heated. So if you then put the board (with vent closed
> and ding repaired) into the sun, you've gotkind of a pressure cooker but
> no pop-off valve. Water may also have entered the board through a badly
> closed valve or through the open valve when stored wet within a
> boardbag. If course, if it's hot enough, leaving the board with vent
> closed and no water inside may be enough for damage, as well as air
> travel or driving over bigger elevation differences. While a board may
> not be instantly "inflated" / delaminated by such misshandling, dammages
> accumulate and finally may show up in bottom delamination.

> Maybe you can find a repair shop withsome experience and vacuum
> equipment, they should be able to get it fixed, adding around 1 pound of
> weight in the process.
> --
> Wolfgang "having had my share of vent troubles..."

by **RMoore** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>The industry
>> needs to come out with a three year warentee to bring consumer faith back.

>Man, would THAT set the custom epoxy market on its ear, especially when many
>of them are regarded as one-season boards. Some custom board shapers come
>right out and admit their EPS/epoxy boards are toast after one serious Gorge
>season. Others don't admit it, but their boards' durability often shows it

>Mike \m/

Well Mike, I think the main issue here is weight and wither anyone can build a
tough, lite board that will last three years of hard use. I don't think the
technology is there to build a 12-13 lb gorge board, keep the price under 1600
and have it last more than a season. The same thing can be said about
production hulls built in a mold. The weak link is the foam and it will
eventually cave in reguardless of the wrap. You can add longevity by increasing
the wrap, I can't see any other way to do it. again my .02

by **Exkra** » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>Well, I think if there wasn't enough resin the board would have failed much
>sooner.

sorry, but it was just like Charles said: there simply was not enough resin in
the cloth between Divinycell and Styro. I know - I repaired the board, in the
process took the "lid" off and had a good look.

Quote:

>The problem is probably heat damage to the epoxy in a high stress area.

That was one big "high stress area", going from the fwd end of the fin box all
the way to within 1ft of the nose...
Eva

by **Exkra** » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>Is
>there any chance the board got a slight ding the days before, allowing
>some water in?

Nope, it checked tight on the vacuum, and dry with the moisture meter. The
guts, when eventually exposed, felt dry.

Quote:

> If there
>really was not enough resin, i think the problem would show earlier

don't know about that. Only thing I know is when fiberglass is partially white
(as opposed to totally clear), and fuzzy, and can be scraped with a fingernail,
then it is lacking resin
Eva

by **Exkra** » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>I had the board repaired by a top repair person on the west coast. I will
>not reveal who unless that person chooses to

Charles: of course, I choose to! I am proud of this job!
Eva

by **Mike** » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00

"RMoore 41" wrote in > Well Mike, I think the main issue here is weight and
wither anyone can build a

Quote:

> tough, lite board that will last three years of hard use. I don't think
the
> technology is there to build a 12-13 lb gorge board, keep the price under
1600
> and have it last more than a season.

I hate to say it, but the short-lived boards I referred to were not light
boards. They were BUILT GORGE TOUGH, as the saying goes, intended and
advertised as full-tilt B&J boards, not feathers. The issue was simply that
one maker feels EPS just doesn't hold up very long, and turns into a bean
bag in a hard season. The other maker has frequent hull defects resulting in
delams and soft spots.

And Revis aded, >The person repairing it stressed that it was

Quote:

>simply too dry in the layers between divinicil and the styro core, a
>manufacturing deficiency.

That was common in Gorge-built Seatrends for years, in which autopsies very
often revealed entire dry layers, according to their warranty repair shop.

MIke \m/

by **RMoore** » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>The issue was simply that
>one maker feels EPS just doesn't hold up very long, and turns into a bean
>bag in a hard season.

EPS is used for a reason, lite and cheap.
I think this is the key to alot of board failure problems, both custom and
production. Maybe the sailing characteristics and the durability should be the
considerations and not the weight.

Quote:

>And Revis aded, >The person repairing it stressed that it was
>>simply too dry in the layers between divinicil and the styro core, a
>>manufacturing deficiency.

Again we have a foam issue, foam is like a sponge, it sucks the resin out of
the cloth where it needs to be. adding more resin might create hot spots and
future problems. Poor craftsmanship water inside, heat and pounding speeds the
weakening and usually sooner than later FAILURE. Maybe the builders and
designers need to rethink the process.
Complicated layups obviously doesn't work, something is going to fail. How
about a blow molded blank that is as strong as wood and lite as a composite
blank? The builder simply runs it threw a shaping machine, glasses it in a mold
and you have a fast produced, potentially GORGE TOUGH, board that is lite and
will live. What the builder loses on the blank cost is off set by reduced labor
costs and warentee issues. again my .02

by **Exkra** » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>>And Revis aded, >The person repairing it stressed that it was
>>>simply too dry in the layers between divinicil and the styro core
>Again we have a foam issue, foam is like a sponge, it sucks the resin out of
>the cloth where it needs to be.

In large-scale delams such as Charles' Naish 8-7, I again and again find a
dearth of resin. Not resin "sucked into the Styro", but simply no resin, with
the Styro in its *** state, even down to the scratch marks where some
conscientious worker roughed up the foam surface, in order to improve the bond.
In Charles' bottom, for example, the original "bond" attached to the Styro in
only approx 1/2ft2 of the total approx 12ft2 of bottom.
I wholeheartedly agree that Styro is ill-suited to building strong, light and
durable sailboards. However, short of re-visiting some old technologies (Mr
Doyle has it figured out!), we can improve the quality of currently fashionable
materials combinations simply by implementing better quality control.
Consumers dictate the market, and until Joe Sailor boycotts the notoriously
defective brands, and is flexible to consider alternative structures, we will
continue to sail shortlived coolers.
Eva

Sport Today

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