HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by Tones » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00


How good do you need to be to benifit from a new board? I can do all those
intermidiate short board things, water start, footstraps, 50%of my jibes and
sail in 20plus knots. If you listen to the fanzines and the dudes at the beach
you can't LIVE with a 4 year old board! Are my A-rock and my Mistral Edge
holding me back, or is more time on the water and riging right more important
then a new stick. I've skied for 30 plus years , making a living sking along
the way and I can tell the differance from a new ski and a four year old one,
but I would say it would take one hell of an intermidate to tell the difference
between a ski with or without Prolinks. Sure new stuff is great but is someone
at my level going to benifit a $1000 worth from a new board?

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by TomBuckO » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
>How good do you need to be to benifit from a new board? I can do all those
>intermidiate short board things, water start, footstraps, 50%of my jibes and
>sail in 20plus knots. If you listen to the fanzines and the dudes at the
>beach
>you can't LIVE with a 4 year old board! Are my A-rock and my Mistral Edge
>holding me back,

We just finished a long thread on this topic (I think it was titled "Wind
Snobs") and the general conclusion was that most sailors cannot benefit from
the year by year performance increments of the new gear.

I'm not familiar with your specific boards, but I think that a sailor of your
ability (50% of jibes dry) will definitely notice and benefit from the advances
made in the last 4 to 5 years.

Tom O'Brien - Chicago

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by MTVNewsG » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00

<<How good do you need to be to benifit from a new board? I can do all those
intermidiate short board things...>>

Why don't you try a few?  Demo some new gear and decide for yourself.
Obviously there are people doing some spectacular sailing on "old" gear, and (I
think) just as obviously there are some great new boards out there.  For myself
I found going no-nose in 1995 definately helped me...but I have no plans to
replace those boards as they head into their fourth season.  That was the last
major design change, and it's worked for me.  

Michael
US5613

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by cliv » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
> > If you listen to the fanzines and the dudes at the
> >beach you can't LIVE with a 4 year old board!
>> Are my A-rock and my Mistral Edge
> > holding me back,

Sorry I didn't see the original post, sounded like a good
one.  There is a definite pressure from the "fanzines" such
as Windsurfing Magazine - they are dedicated to slalom
sailors who are willing to make gear investments each year,
it seems - in other words, Wind Snobs.  Some magaines
aren't like that and are more dedicated to the hard-core
windsurfing lifestyle, the wave-riding lifestyle, the
longboard lifestyle, etc..  
Choose your magazines well, my friend - after a year's
subscription to Windsurfing Magazine, I was convinced my
gear was pure ***and I would never learn skills on it.  I
was also convinced I would never be happy until I bought a
new quiver, a new board, new etc.  Better magazines are
Windtracks and Windsport.  They show the new gear and
evaluate it, but don't shove the benefits down your throat
until you are "brainwashed" into thinking you really need
it when you don't.

  I can understand if "the dudes at the beach" make new
gear out to be the best thing to have.  If they have it,
they will try to justify the purchase - the attitude of: "I
spent over a grand on this board, so it's gotta be better
(or else I'm screwed)".

It would almost seem that each area of windsurfing has it's
stereotypes.  Slalom sailors are concerned with their gear,
it has to be new, unscratched, the finest money can buy.  I
would find this type of sailing slightly boring, but it
seems cool because you spend time researching which gear is
perfect for the gaps in your quiver, looking for the best
prices, etc.
No offence to anyone, but please feel free to air your
feelings on it.
Hard-core windsurfing is for me - not quite bump and jump,
but emphasizes on big jumps, G-force lay-down gybes, body
drags, light-wind tricks.  It's based on the principle that
the most respect goes out to the person who does the
biggest moves on the crappiest gear.  It's based on effort,
not gear, to take you to new limits.  Sure it's not for
everyone, but hey.

Yeah, it's too bad you missed the Wind Snobs thread - it
was a good one! :)
Clive

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by Volker Wedemeie » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
> How good do you need to be to benifit from a new board? I can do all those
> intermidiate short board things, water start, footstraps, 50%of my jibes and
> sail in 20plus knots. If you listen to the fanzines and the dudes at the beach
> you can't LIVE with a 4 year old board! Are my A-rock and my Mistral Edge
> holding me back, or is more time on the water and riging right more important
> then a new stick.
...
> between a ski with or without Prolinks. Sure new stuff is great but is someone
> at my level going to benifit a $1000 worth from a new board?

If your 'old' board is only 4 years old, then I'd definately say NO!

My boards are 4 and 3 years old, too, and today I shredd past more people
than I did 4 years ago when the boards were all new. So, my skill
obviously improved much faster than board technology and also skill is
much more important than improvements in board technology.
Also I would say, that improvements in equipment over the past 4 to 5
years has only been minor if there has been any at all. (In the meantime
we had this no-nose frenzy and nowadays everybody is going back to 'big'
nose again, just look at the latest F2 boards). There is much changing
this and changing that in boards and sails, and industry is of course
telling everybody that each and every change is a huge improvement, but if
you really try it out on the water, there is almost no improvement at
all.

I've tried brand new equipment during my vacation in Egypt in 1997. Brand
new F2 boards (mostly Xantos and Axxis) and NP sails with 100% carbon
masts and all that neat stuff. Was there a big difference? - No! Was there
a slight difference? - Yes, but not only positive ones. The Axxis for
example does not sail too well in waves at least by far not as well as my
2 years older waveboard. And then, I did not have more fun on the new
stuff and I also don't think that I was faster either.
So, forget about the techno dudes on the beach and rather go sailing!
A 4 year old board is perfectly up to date! I would start to worry only if
you start to fall behind the crowd more than you used to due to all the
others having new boards.

Well, if you really are in doubt about your board, the best thing would be
to go and rent a brand new setup somewhere. Since I did last year, I have
been convinced that it's absolutely of no use to spend $300 on a reduced
diameter 100% carbon mast, not to mention $1000 for a brand new board.
Skill (which includes judging wind conditions and choosing the
right sail, rigging, choosing the right fin, sailing technique like
seeing gusts, riding down small waves for speed and so forth) accounts for
80% of someones performance, the gear probably 20% at the most. And if one
assumes that boards have _probably_ improved by 10% in the past 4 years
(which is surely an absolute upper estimate), you get a 2% increase in
your overall performance by buying a new board. If this is worth $1000 to
you - go ahead! Not for me!

Hang loose,

        Volker

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HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by Wolfgang Soerge » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> How good do you need to be to benifit from a new board? I can do all those
> intermidiate short board things, water start, footstraps, 50%of my jibes and
> sail in 20plus knots. If you listen to the fanzines and the dudes at the beach
> you can't LIVE with a 4 year old board! Are my A-rock and my Mistral Edge
> holding me back, or is more time on the water and riging right more important
> then a new stick. I've skied for 30 plus years , making a living sking along
> the way and I can tell the differance from a new ski and a four year old one,
> but I would say it would take one hell of an intermidate to tell the difference
> between a ski with or without Prolinks. Sure new stuff is great but is someone
> at my level going to benifit a $1000 worth from a new board?

I'd say that real differences in board performance, given equal design
objectives
and size for the boards, require around 5 - 6 years of difference in
developement
stage in the moment at the intermediate level. For sails it may be a bit
less,
experts and racers certainly feel more differences.

But more important wether your boards are "too old" is the question
wether the
boards (still) meet your (maybe changing) needs. Or wether there are new
types
of shapes which are just right for you.

From that i'd say that there are meanwhile boards which are really
"better"
than an A-rock: earlier planning, better speed, better windrange, better
control,
at least equal ease of jibing and manouvering can be found in most
"Freerides"
around 290 of moost manufacturers. So if you are incontent with the
performance
of the E-rock, yes, imho there are meanwhile better boards. Wether they
help
you jibing however is at least debatable.
For the Edge i'd say it's a fairly recent board and you won't recognize
large performance differences. However it's also not exactly known as a
very
manouver friendly board so a >different<, not necessarily newer board
may
make you happier.

I'd say you need to demo some boards (with your sails and head to head
to your
boards if possible) to find wether YOU feel a difference. There are 2
kinds of
dudes talking (latest) gear on the beach:
+Really good sailors recognizing sublte differences (like you do in
skies)
+the ones who also always need new toys in other categories of live,
maybe
to compensate for some other deficiencies.

Wolfgang
--
Wolfgang Soergel                  
Lehrstuhl fuer Nachrichtentechnik / phone: ++49-9131-857781
Universitaet Erlangen-Nuernberg  /  fax:   ++49-9131-858849
Cauerstrasse 7             /     email:

D-91058 Erlangen, GERMANY /
http://www.nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de/~wsoergel

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by sailquik (Roger Jacks » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
>How good do you need to be to benifit from a new board?

Not very!!
In my humble opinion, most of the advances in the last 3 or 4 years have
not been in any particular aspect of "performance" (except perhaps the new
lite air planing specific boards) but more in terms of boards that are more
user friendly,  and easier to learn more advanced moves on, and perhaps
more durable.
Sure you can sail 4 year old gear, and learn, even some of the most
advanced moves, but a board that performs better all around and keeps you
on the water (ie the freeride type boards) will shorten your learning curve
significantly.
I can go out and plane on almost any 90-110  board , in 15 knots, with a
6.5 sail.
But the newer Freeride designs, (F2 Xanthos/F2 Ride/ and a bunch of others
I haven't sailed) have so much more range, I would need fewer boards, and
could sail a board I'm familiar with in a much greater range of conditions.
This makes for rapid progress on the learning curve.
Add the newer, extended range sails, and I actually need alot less kit to
cover a far wider range of conditions.

Quote:
> If you listen to the fanzines and the dudes at the beach
>you can't LIVE with a 4 year old board! Are my A-rock and my Mistral Edge
>holding me back, or is more time on the water and riging right more important
>then a new stick.

Holding you back, probably not. Allowing you to get on the fast track to
greater WS success, probably so. And, if you are using the newer sails,
with the big range, you perhaps are not going to be able to use all the
range as the older design boards just won't handle that range of
conditions. Now I'd suppose, that if you had a modern wide range sail, you
could have 2 or 3 boards t support this range, but one modern freeride
board will cover the same territory, better.

Quote:
> Sure new stuff is great but is someone
>at my level going to benifit a $1000 worth from a new board?

Probably! Only you can be the ultimate judge of this, and it all depends on
how and where you place the values. It's completely a "choices" thing.
later

sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
F2/North Sails/ True Ames/Rainbow|Ph#in NC 919-995-3204
US Sail Lvl 1 WS Instructor

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by NLW TFW » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00

1. The original A-Rock is an ancient design, but if your 4yo A-Rock is a
modernized version -- wide point further back than the original but not a
radical no-nose (ask your friends) -- it's probably fine. As for the Edge, it's
modern enough but tough to jibe -- it's not helping you in that respect.  

2. As for Windtracks "showing the new gear and evaluating it" -- no, they just
show it and print the manufacturers' claims. They make it quite clear that they
do not evaluate gear.

3. Ask me again in a few months. I MAY replace my classic design (volume
everywhere because it's my "Big Board" and must get me back when the wind dies)
1993 Bailey 9-0 soon IF the newer boards justify the swap. But unless the newer
stuff outruns mine by 20%, feels smaller in aerial off-the-lips, jams even
tighter jibes, has a broader wind range than mine's 5.0-7.0 range, slogs
equally comfortably at 2 mph at most points of sail while hooked in, and
withstands rocks better than this TOUGH Bailey -- why bother? I could AFFORD a
custom hand-delivered Roberts AVS -- but I don't NEED it (and I understand it's
not a slogger, so might not be a great board for the1-30 mph winds my Big Board
must work in).

4.  A friend who buys the newest convertibles each year and is generally a
better sailor than I tells me I usually have a good 10% speed edge on him ....
and I'm on RAFs against his two- and three-cambered newer sails.

I plan to test ride several new selected boards head-to-head against my Bailey,
THEN see whether the difference is worth my grand.

Sails, OTOH, may be a different story. You might see a very noticeable wind
range improvement if your sails are four years old. I'd check that out on the
water, too.

Mike \m/
Never Leave Wind To Find Wind

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by MTVNewsG » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00

<<In the meantime
we had this no-nose frenzy and nowadays everybody is going back to 'big'
nose again, just look at the latest F2 boards>>

That's nonsense...no major manufacturer has returned to the volume
distributions that were popular before 1995.

Michael
US5613

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by Wolfgang Soerge » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00

[..]

Quote:
> (In the meantime
> we had this no-nose frenzy and nowadays everybody is going back to 'big'
> nose again, just look at the latest F2 boards).

[..]
Care to tell which F2 boards are "Big Nose" ??

I only see the recent crop of windsurfing malibus (like the New Move)
which are not exactly representative of all new boards. They have a very
special range of use (surfing and surfsailing in few wind) and may
be a completely new trend there. But they probabely won't replace
normal boards, not as fast, not as much windrange, wouldn't want
to imagine how they handle in chop. And for those "normal" boards,
designs with the widest point back, short planning area (the most
important difference to designs of the beginning 90s), narrow
nose and relatively wide back are still , maybe more than ever,
the norm. They aren't called "Nonose" by the industry because that term
may sound negative due to some bad, unripe designs from the 93-95 era
but take a yardstick and have a look.

The only real "fatnose" boards i see in the moment are some RRD designs,
imho these are really radical no-noses: NO nose instead of a narrow
nose,
the boards are quite short over all but still sailed on the fin,
with mast track far back. Compare mast track positions.

I don;t say those older boards were necessarily bad, maybe even easier
to use. But there is no such thing as "Going back to 'big' nose
again" as a broad movement. Subtle changes, sold with not so subtle
adverti***t ("Centered Volume" for example. Look at the boards, there
isn't much of a difference).

Wolfgang
--
Wolfgang Soergel                  
Lehrstuhl fuer Nachrichtentechnik / phone: ++49-9131-857781
Universitaet Erlangen-Nuernberg  /  fax:   ++49-9131-858849
Cauerstrasse 7             /     email:

D-91058 Erlangen, GERMANY /
http://SportToday.org/~wsoergel

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by Laurence Robinso » Thu, 05 Feb 1998 04:00:00



Quote:
>How good do you need to be to benifit from a new board? I can do all those
>intermidiate short board things, water start, footstraps, 50%of my jibes and
>sail in 20plus knots. If you listen to the fanzines and the dudes at the beach
>you can't LIVE with a 4 year old board! Are my A-rock and my Mistral Edge
>holding me back, or is more time on the water and riging right more important
>then a new stick. I've skied for 30 plus years , making a living sking along
>the way and I can tell the differance from a new ski and a four year old one,
>but I would say it would take one hell of an intermidate to tell the difference
>between a ski with or without Prolinks. Sure new stuff is great but is someone
>at my level going to benifit a $1000 worth from a new board?

-- Toneski

Give Dunkerbeck your four year old kit. Give him twenty minutes to tune it to
his liking and he will blow 99.9% of the worlds windsurfers off the water like a
tornado through rotting timbers.

That should be your goal, skill, technique and tuning. Only then should you
worry about the marginal advantage that brand new kit might give you.

Buy your brainwashed beach dudes a tub of grease to help them put.........sorry
, family newsgroup.

Laurence Robinson

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by Volker Wedemeie » Fri, 06 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> <<In the meantime
> we had this no-nose frenzy and nowadays everybody is going back to 'big'
> nose again, just look at the latest F2 boards>>

> That's nonsense...no major manufacturer has returned to the volume
> distributions that were popular before 1995.

Sure, they don't return to _the_ volume distribution. If they did, they'd
be building the same boards again. Every new board has a different shape
and thus volume distribution.
But, do you really not see that the volume is moving foreward again?

For example look at the F2 Xantosses. They always looked really no-nose,
but they've never been really no-nose. F2 only tried to make them look
like no noses by the painting. (Paint the middle section of the nose dark,
let the dark color run to a sharp point in the nose, paint the rest (the
sides) of the volume in the nose light, and you got the look of a radical
no nose). In reality, they do have quite some volume in the nose and that
for some reason in my opinion. I've tried them and they feel a lot like my
1993 Explosion (at least the 285 one and to some extent the 295 one).
Sure, the Explosion isn't exactly 'fat nose' either, but then we haven't
had real fat noses since 1989 except for maybe for some Alpha boards.

Well, who do I try convince here and why? - Dunno! If you think you have
to follow each and every back and forth change of the windsurfing
industry, go ahead.

Hang loose,

        Volker

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HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by irie » Fri, 06 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> Give Dunkerbeck your four year old kit. Give him twenty minutes to tune it to
> his liking and he will blow 99.9% of the worlds windsurfers off the water like a
> tornado through rotting timbers.

Classic!  I agree completely.

Jim

'87 Naish wave board
'90 AHD 9'5
'93 Progressive Composites 8'8" Gorge Board (13 lbs.!)

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by Martin Stephenso » Sat, 07 Feb 1998 04:00:00

You are right. Forget about the marketing hype. Time on the water is the
thing. Upgrading the fins on your old boards might be an option.

 
 
 

HOW OLD IS TO OLD, DO I NEED A NEW BOARD

Post by MTVNewsG » Sat, 07 Feb 1998 04:00:00

<<do you really not see that the volume is moving foreward again?>>

No.  

<If you think you have to follow each and every back and forth change of the
windsurfing industry, go ahead.>

Apparently you don't recall my original post on this thread.   And the newest
gear I have is three years old, most of it's older, and I very much enjoy
sailing my volume forward 8'9", though I prefer the ride on newer boards. In
any event, you've got a bug up your ass about "no-nose" boards...you made the
same comments several months ago on this board and it was rejected then by
people as well.  Feel free to have the last word...I'm off of this.

Michael
US5613