Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by mzawa.. » Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:34:36


Hi all,

I am considering getting a bigger sail. My board is Starboard FT 148
and I have 490/55%/IMCS_29 mast which I would like to use with the new
sail. My current sail is 7.5 Gaastra Matrix. I would also like the new
sail to rig quickly (and with one person), too.

Now, the sail I was thinking about is Sailworks Retro 9.5 (no cam).
I've read many great opinions about this sail, but on the other hand
(and beacuse this brand is not popular where I live) my local buddies
tell me that a no-cam sail will never outperform a cam sail of the
same size. Is that true for Retro?

I've never really dealt with cambers, but my concern is they'll make
rigging longer and that they make the sail heavier and harder to lift
from the water. Is it really the case? Can you recommend a good and
popular cam sail which would meet my criteria?

Any advice appreciated.
Thanks,

-marek

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by Bob » Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:34:34

Hi marek, I have a 2003 9.8 Gaastra GTX and a 2004 Retro 8.5 for my
large sails and there isn't a major amount of difference in power
between the two but the Retro has a way bigger "fun" factor. The
Gaastra gets the job done and may plane in 1 mph less wind, but you
have to drive it hard to get it to go up wind. The Retro seem to go up
wind quite willingly.  This is an important point because in light
winds the appearant wind comes forward so quickly that you spend a lot
of time close hauled!  Off the wind, they perform about the same in
terms of speed across the water.

The only thing I can think of which might be a factor is very very
light winds like 2-5 mph. In those winds, I would think the advantage
could go to a cammed sail. Lucky for us in Corpus Christi, those days
are infrequent.

For info purposes, I weigh about 235 lbs and sail an "old school" 300
Protech.

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by Bob » Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:40:52

I wanted to add one more thing. The Retro has a huge "FUN" factor.  I
don't know how to describe it exactly, but it is "fun", where the GTX
can be more like work or exercise. It's like race sails, some have the
"magic" where they willingly turn wind into serious speed, and it
seems more like play than work, well, the Retro makes sailing big
sails fun!

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by wind.s » Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:27:28

Quote:

>Hi all,

>I am considering getting a bigger sail. My board is Starboard FT 148
>and I have 490/55%/IMCS_29 mast which I would like to use with the new
>sail. My current sail is 7.5 Gaastra Matrix. I would also like the new
>sail to rig quickly (and with one person), too.

>Now, the sail I was thinking about is Sailworks Retro 9.5 (no cam).
>I've read many great opinions about this sail, but on the other hand
>(and beacuse this brand is not popular where I live) my local buddies
>tell me that a no-cam sail will never outperform a cam sail of the
>same size. Is that true for Retro?

>I've never really dealt with cambers, but my concern is they'll make
>rigging longer and that they make the sail heavier and harder to lift
>from the water. Is it really the case? Can you recommend a good and
>popular cam sail which would meet my criteria?

>Any advice appreciated.
>Thanks,

>-marek

Hi, Marek, the only Retro I've ever sailed was a 5.5 I owned. I used
it maybe 6 times and being so used to cams, I hated it. I have never
heard of another Retro sailor not loving theirs, so the only people I
would think should consider my opinion would be a lake sailor such as
myself. Lakes tend to have shifty, gusty winds and that's one place
cams make a huge difference.

Since you are in CC, there must be at least one Retro you can bum a
ride on.

Cams will definitely make a sail heavier. My Pryde V8s are the
lightest cammed sails I've ever sailed, but they are also the least
durable and I won't buy another one.

I think you would probably love a Retro, but you might also want to
consider Ezzy as you can sail them with 2 cams, 1 cam or no cam.

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by snowygu » Tue, 05 Jun 2007 00:00:38

Unless you are built like Arnold or Charles Atlas, you don't want a
cambered sail in anything larger than a 7 meter sail.  Loft makes some
of the lightest sails on the market, and recently I have been using
one of their 02's (no-cams) in a 9.6.  My most used sail has been one
of their 8.4's  Both sizes challenge my strength, but the 9.6  has
been a big surprise in comparison to the 8.4.  Sailing in light winds,
you almost always will be forced to up-haul or struggle with your
water-starts.  Your slogging will take on a new meaning as big rigs
make sinkers out of former floating barges.  Any opportunity to
lighten your load will be appreciated.  On Jun 3, 8:34 am,
Quote:

> Hi all,

> I am considering getting a bigger sail. My board is Starboard FT 148
> and I have 490/55%/IMCS_29 mast which I would like to use with the new
> sail. My current sail is 7.5 Gaastra Matrix. I would also like the new
> sail to rig quickly (and with one person), too.

> Now, the sail I was thinking about is Sailworks Retro 9.5 (no cam).
> I've read many great opinions about this sail, but on the other hand
> (and beacuse this brand is not popular where I live) my local buddies
> tell me that a no-cam sail will never outperform a cam sail of the
> same size. Is that true for Retro?

> I've never really dealt with cambers, but my concern is they'll make
> rigging longer and that they make the sail heavier and harder to lift
> from the water. Is it really the case? Can you recommend a good and
> popular cam sail which would meet my criteria?

> Any advice appreciated.
> Thanks,

> -marek

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by oneup.ag.. » Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:16:57

"Any opportunity to lighten your load will be appreciated..."

Who appreciates it when you lighten your load, Brucie?  In fact, who
really cares about you or your load?


Quote:
> Unless you are built like Arnold or Charles Atlas, you don't want a
> cambered sail in anything larger than a 7 meter sail.  Loft makes some
> of the lightest sails on the market, and recently I have been using
> one of their 02's (no-cams) in a 9.6.  My most used sail has been one
> of their 8.4's  Both sizes challenge my strength, but the 9.6  has
> been a big surprise in comparison to the 8.4.  Sailing in light winds,
> you almost always will be forced to up-haul or struggle with your
> water-starts.  Your slogging will take on a new meaning as big rigs
> make sinkers out of former floating barges.  Any opportunity to
> lighten your load will be appreciated.  On Jun 3, 8:34 am,

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by Erik » Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:10:25

Before this thing digresses too far, I will put a plug in for the
cammed option.  I sail on a lake mainly, and although I would rather
be on a no-cam sail in consistant wind, I would not trade anything for
cams in variable winds.  It may be opinion, but I believe cams add
draft stability.  If you have consistant wind then maybe no-cam is
fine.

No doubt cams add weight, rigging hassle, and possibly poor rotation,
but thousands of us always buy large sails with cams and all (?) race
sails have them.  In the performance-speed arena they must add
something?

I am not overly strong, but I can uphaul, or if there is enough wind,
waterstart my 10.6 2-cam fine.  The trick I use with uphauling is to
use the board to help clear the sail and raise it the first foot or
two (when it's the hardest).  I stand way leeward, opposite the uphaul
sail side, and tilt the board so much that it raises the sail.  Some
day I suspect it will damage to board, but I will smile because my
back is fine.

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by wind.s » Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:17:00



Quote:
>Unless you are built like Arnold or Charles Atlas, you don't want a
>cambered sail in anything larger than a 7 meter sail.

That's bull, pure and simple.

Quote:
> Loft makes some
>of the lightest sails on the market, and recently I have been using
>one of their 02's (no-cams) in a 9.6.  My most used sail has been one
>of their 8.4's  Both sizes challenge my strength,

If an 8.4 challenges your strength, then lay off the Twinkies and get
off the couch.
 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by snowygu » Tue, 05 Jun 2007 22:46:49


Quote:


> >Unless you are built like Arnold or Charles Atlas, you don't want a
> >cambered sail in anything larger than a 7 meter sail.

> That's bull, pure and simple.

> > Loft makes some
> >of the lightest sails on the market, and recently I have been using
> >one of their 02's (no-cams) in a 9.6.  My most used sail has been one
> >of their 8.4's  Both sizes challenge my strength,

> If an 8.4 challenges your strength, then lay off the Twinkies and get
> off the couch.

Certainly every idiot has a right to his opinion.  It is amazing how
many come here to express theirs.  I often wonder how old some of you
are, too,  and whether or not you are shaving yet.  An 8.4 is no piece
of cake to uphaul, especially if you are around 60 years of age.  It's
also easier at the end of the season than it is from the first.  The
number of cams, also, makes a difference.  A two cam sail was not what
i was considering.  Most big sails have four cams.  A race sail may
have more.  This pro and con argument has gone on ad nauseum on many
boards and forums.  If you are interested in getting a variety of
opinion, try doing searches.
 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by Craig Berg » Tue, 05 Jun 2007 23:18:42

Hello,

This is Craig Bergh from Worthington Minnesota. Where are you
located.  Are you in the USA.

Is there a way you can demo some various cammed and non cammed sails.
That is a great way to select a sail.\

Craig


 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by Craig Goudi » Wed, 06 Jun 2007 01:25:31

Hi Marek,

I own an 8.5 Sailworks XT (cammed race sail), and a 9.5
Retro.  The Retro "outperforms" the XT in all my qualifications,
but it is a meter bigger.  I was a cam guy (in larger sail sizes)
for a long time, and the Retro has changed my opinion. Sweet
rig and plenty fast and upwindy, also pulls like a freight train.
To get the most top and bottom end from it, you'll need an adjustable
outhaul.  Get adjusted to that and I think you'll be smoke'n your
cammed buddies.

I ride mine with an Angulo Sumo 155 which is not a formula board,
so your mileage may vary.

-Craig


Quote:
> Hi all,

> I am considering getting a bigger sail. My board is Starboard FT 148
> and I have 490/55%/IMCS_29 mast which I would like to use with the new
> sail. My current sail is 7.5 Gaastra Matrix. I would also like the new
> sail to rig quickly (and with one person), too.

> Now, the sail I was thinking about is Sailworks Retro 9.5 (no cam).
> I've read many great opinions about this sail, but on the other hand
> (and beacuse this brand is not popular where I live) my local buddies
> tell me that a no-cam sail will never outperform a cam sail of the
> same size. Is that true for Retro?

> I've never really dealt with cambers, but my concern is they'll make
> rigging longer and that they make the sail heavier and harder to lift
> from the water. Is it really the case? Can you recommend a good and
> popular cam sail which would meet my criteria?

> Any advice appreciated.
> Thanks,

> -marek

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by Dan Weis » Wed, 06 Jun 2007 02:07:13


Quote:
> Before this thing digresses too far, I will put a plug in for the
> cammed option.  I sail on a lake mainly, and although I would rather
> be on a no-cam sail in consistant wind, I would not trade anything for
> cams in variable winds.  It may be opinion, but I believe cams add
> draft stability.  If you have consistant wind then maybe no-cam is
> fine.

> No doubt cams add weight, rigging hassle, and possibly poor rotation,
> but thousands of us always buy large sails with cams and all (?) race
> sails have them.  In the performance-speed arena they must add
> something?

> I am not overly strong, but I can uphaul, or if there is enough wind,
> waterstart my 10.6 2-cam fine.  The trick I use with uphauling is to
> use the board to help clear the sail and raise it the first foot or
> two (when it's the hardest).  I stand way leeward, opposite the uphaul
> sail side, and tilt the board so much that it raises the sail.  Some
> day I suspect it will damage to board, but I will smile because my
> back is fine.

That's the main difference for non-race application:  gusty conditions
versus more steady wind.  There is little dispute about whether a well-
designed cam sail will offer better control and performance in gusty
conditions.  Whether that matters can seem subjective, but in lighter
winds the cam sail really makes a big difference in acceleration and
carrying speed through the lulls because the sail holds its shape even
when faced with dropping wind pressure.

All that said, many people prefer no-cam sails (like the Retro) for
reasons of handling and perceived lightness.  I think the latter view
is more about poor tuning of cammed sails than a few grams of weight
added by the cams.

As for uphauling, rig weight is rig weight, no getting around that.
Many people find that the EZ uphaul makes quick work of even the
largest sails.  I don't use one, but have tried several many times.  I
can confirm that they work as advertised.

Don't be afraid of warnings about sails larger than 7.5.  Like any
sail, proper tuning is the key to a light feel and a fun time -
especially in light winds on a wide board!

-Dan

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by wind.s » Wed, 06 Jun 2007 07:43:29



Quote:
>Certainly every idiot has a right to his opinion.  It is amazing how
>many come here to express theirs.  I often wonder how old some of you
>are, too,  and whether or not you are shaving yet.  An 8.4 is no piece
>of cake to uphaul, especially if you are around 60 years of age.  It's
>also easier at the end of the season than it is from the first.  The
>number of cams, also, makes a difference.  A two cam sail was not what
>i was considering.  Most big sails have four cams.  A race sail may
>have more.  This pro and con argument has gone on ad nauseum on many
>boards and forums.  If you are interested in getting a variety of
>opinion, try doing searches.

That's a pretty decent post and 'sorry I said the first one was, but I
still think it is. I didn't realize your age, but that is
non-revealing to a large degree. My best friend just turned 65 and
there most 25 year olds cannot beat him in a foot race, long or short.

I'm 54, 170 lbs., and waterstart or uphaul a 10.5, 9.5, 7.5 and
smaller. The two biggest ones have 3 cams while the 7.5 and my 5.5
have 2. All my booms are 100% carbon for 7.5 and larger and all masts
range from 55% (10.5) to 75% (9.5 and 7.5).

When you talk about a cammed sail being heavy to uphaul, I think most
people would agree that your average sailor is not considering a race
sail. What big sail that is not a race sail has 4 cams? Not V8. Not
Infinity.

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by mzawa.. » Thu, 07 Jun 2007 19:10:10

And how about North Sails DAYTONA 2007 10.0 ?? http://www.north-windsurf.com/sails/daytona

I just got a deal on this sail. It rigs on a 490/28-32 (with a NS
carbon extender) which means that, like with Retro, I won't need a new
mast and has cams, true, but NS's new HYPER.CAMS system promises easy
rigging(?). Plus I like the brand and I wouldn't have to buy it in
another country (support).
On the other hand it does not quite look like a beginner sail...

So what do you think? Should I go for NS Daytona or get Retro? How
does these two compare?

-marek

 
 
 

Please help in choosing a 9.5 sail - cam or no cam?

Post by wind.s » Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:34:01

Quote:

>And how about North Sails DAYTONA 2007 10.0 ?? http://SportToday.org/

>I just got a deal on this sail. It rigs on a 490/28-32 (with a NS
>carbon extender) which means that, like with Retro, I won't need a new
>mast and has cams, true, but NS's new HYPER.CAMS system promises easy
>rigging(?). Plus I like the brand and I wouldn't have to buy it in
>another country (support).
>On the other hand it does not quite look like a beginner sail...

>So what do you think? Should I go for NS Daytona or get Retro? How
>does these two compare?

>-marek

A lot of people apparently love Norths; I've never sailed one. That is
a good-looking sail and **no new mast** is a great benefit, but there
are a LOT of people who love their Retros. Just remember - a good
price on something you don't like wasn't much of a deal.

Aren't you in Corpus? If you can't find a Retro to bum a ride on, you
might want to at least talk to some local big-sail cam owners.

As good as that sail looks, I would probably lean toward something I
know to be a proven winner. Maybe this sail is, have you Googled for
reviews? I spent about 30 seconds doing this and didn't learn much.

One more thing: I think I've heard people say their 9.5 Retro was
about as good as their larger Retro. I have Pryde V8s in 10.5 and 9.5
and have not rigged the 10.5 this year. The 9.5 is so much less hassle
to rig and carry from the parking lot to the beach, not to mention
carry out of the water after sailing, and the 10.5 doesn't give me
that much advantage. If it's not gusting at least to 11-12 mph, I'm
sitting in my chair anyway, so***the extra weight.