Sport Today

by **cosmicharli** » Sun, 01 Oct 2006 19:13:07

It's not clear who you are attacking here, but actually I suspect most
readers like me have put you in the ignore catagory like that ***,
Oneup, and others.

Quote:

> > There are three different footstrap twist control systems I have found,
> > Mistral, Dakine and Epic Gear. Can anyone comment intelligently on
> > these devices and how they compare?

> Can you try asking a question without insulting people right off the bat
> and maybe you will start getting polite, intelligent answers

by **cosmicharli** » Sun, 01 Oct 2006 19:33:42

Thanks Ratho, for actually addressing my original post. In trying to
keep the discussion general, I attempt to take the subjective out of
it. In other words, I'm not seeking the part, I want to see a good
thread on the different options. My personal situation isn't
important. However, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
There are so many rather base (course and common) and despicable
attitudes reflected here in personal approaches, that I think some
should be reminded how best to publish. If you want to exchange
personal messages, try sending e-mail instead of publishing. The issue
here is what is the best anti-twist device, not what should I use for
one. Not every windsurfing shop has the Dakine system, too.
Nevertheless, have been served quite well by BrianK at
WindsurfingHatteras when it comes to the Dakine thingy's. Island
Sports in R.I. has also been helpful. As to one hole vs. two, it may
be better to inquire of someone who designs and shapes boards.
However, from my experience I have learned that when you are looking at
a production issue and change, you are facing big costs. Once boards
go into production, the R & D costs are no longer a factor. You are
taking advantage of the reason mass production was introduced. In
other words, you have to stop production, re-organize your purchasing
dept. and work force and perhaps re-tool in order to make a change from
one to two holes. They prabably don't think it is worth doing.

Quote:

> as far as single hole strap systems are concerned, I think the
> anti-twist system used by JP, Mistral, and F2 is the best. It consists
> of inserts w/ a ring of small receptors that line up w/ a ring of small
> posts that protrude from the bottom of a two-part plastic foostrap
> washer. The posts press through the deck pads and into the footstrap
> insert and do a great job of preventing twist as long as the screws are
> reasonably tight. The only annoying thing is that the spacing on the
> two-part anti-twist washer (the part that goes on the footstrap) does
> not line up w/ DaKine straps, so you have tinker w/ the straps a little
> if you want to use DaKine Contour straps w/ the system.

> kev

by **cosmicharli** » Sun, 01 Oct 2006 19:49:47

God-damn. You guys not only lack patience, but you really can be
rather irritating. I was out sailing all day yesterday and left the
laptop behind. Half the posters here I totally ignore because they are
so obnoxious and stupid, too. I guess you think that's trolling.

Quote:

> Well, he is a local windsurfer and I'd like to help out. It's hard to
> know when a post is a troll or somthing more honest.

> -Dan

> > > Either I don't know how to read, or......

> > > -Dan

> > Or you take his trolling way too seriously.

by **Tsunam** » Sun, 01 Oct 2006 22:29:09

No it is very clear. He is attacking you. and not without due cause also.
Read your question again and you'll see why...

Quote:

> It's not clear who you are attacking here, but actually I suspect most
> readers like me have put you in the ignore catagory like that ***,
> Oneup, and others.

> > > There are three different footstrap twist control systems I have
found,
> > > Mistral, Dakine and Epic Gear. Can anyone comment intelligently on
> > > these devices and how they compare?

> > Can you try asking a question without insulting people right off the bat
> > and maybe you will start getting polite, intelligent answers

by **cosmicharli** » Mon, 02 Oct 2006 08:22:40

I'm amazed at the number of trouble makers that post on this forum. In
actuality, I have thought out this little misunderstanding. Before I
address it, though, I want to underscore my low opinion of various
posters including the last. In actuality, Dan, you answered my
question, I thank you, but I discovered that Eva was refering to a
board insert which for her, prabably, would be easy to introduce to a
sailors kit, but for most sailors, it would entail some expense. I
didn't want to know how to find a footstrap anti-twist device, I just
wanted to know what she was posting about. By the way, Eva, I have a
cracked two hole footstrap insert in an old poly board. How hard would
it be to replace it? I'm an experienced ski shop mechanic, so some
technicalities are within my grasp.

Quote:

> No it is very clear. He is attacking you. and not without due cause also.
> Read your question again and you'll see why...

> > It's not clear who you are attacking here, but actually I suspect most
> > readers like me have put you in the ignore catagory like that ***,
> > Oneup, and others.

> > > > There are three different footstrap twist control systems I have
> found,
> > > > Mistral, Dakine and Epic Gear. Can anyone comment intelligently on
> > > > these devices and how they compare?

> > > Can you try asking a question without insulting people right off the bat
> > > and maybe you will start getting polite, intelligent answers

by **Steven Sla** » Tue, 03 Oct 2006 12:27:27

Are you having difficulty understanding your own posts now?

Quote:

> It's not clear who you are attacking here, but actually I suspect most
> readers like me have put you in the ignore catagory like that ***,
> Oneup, and others.

>> > There are three different footstrap twist control systems I have found,
>> > Mistral, Dakine and Epic Gear. Can anyone comment intelligently on
>> > these devices and how they compare?

>> Can you try asking a question without insulting people right off the bat
>> and maybe you will start getting polite, intelligent answers

by **oneup.ag..** » Wed, 04 Oct 2006 10:33:32

"...readers like me have put you in the ignore catagory like that
***, Oneup, and others..."

What are you saying, Brucie? I haven't put him on ignore. And I
certainly won't put you on ignore -- I need my laugh-a-minute.

Quote:

> It's not clear who you are attacking here, but actually I suspect most
> readers like me have put you in the ignore catagory like that ***,
> Oneup, and others.

> > > There are three different footstrap twist control systems I have found,
> > > Mistral, Dakine and Epic Gear. Can anyone comment intelligently on
> > > these devices and how they compare?

> > Can you try asking a question without insulting people right off the bat
> > and maybe you will start getting polite, intelligent answers

by **ratho..** » Wed, 04 Oct 2006 13:40:12

do you need a two***system to prevent twist? in my experience you
don't. I think the system that is used by JP, F2, and Mistral works
great at preventing twist, so I don't really have an issue w/ it. I
have used countless other boards that use other anti-twist methods w/
single hole inserts, and they have varying degrees of effectiveness
(usually littl or none). I was just in San Carlos testing wave boards
for a week, and the F2, JP, and Mistral boards I rode didn't have twist
problems... the other boards did.

I'm not a racer, and I only weigh 165lbs, so maybe my experience is not
the same as yours, but I sail hard and over 200 days a year, and I
don't have strap twist problems on my JP's.

The real question for me is why would a board company use an anti-twist
system that doesn't work? So, if you're just going to throw in a
couple bottle caps w/ a board to prevent twist, I'd just wish that the
builder would put double inserts in there instead. But, I would prefer
a board builder to just use a good anti-twist system that is lighter
and easier to adjust. Adjusting straps is a pain, and doubling the
number of screws sounds terrible to me... especially considering that I
don't have problems w/ strap twist.

Anyway, I think the main reason builders use single inserts is because
of weight. If you look at all the boards these days, they generally
have shorter mast tracks, shorter a-boxes, and sometimes fewer
footstrap inserts. Doesn't sound like it all adds up to much, but by
the time you combine everything w/ less paint, etc... you get a boards
that are pretty damn light and strong these days.

kev

BTW, I have a '99 Subaru w/ the aforementioned non-folding mirrors...
now that's annoying!

Quote:

> > as far as single hole strap systems are concerned, I think the
> > anti-twist system used by JP, Mistral, and F2 is the best.

> So Kevin, any idea about the rationale behind sticking with the
> single-hole systems? Can't be the minuscule per-board cost of extra
> inserts and stainless screws - after all, the molded parts for all
> those anti-twist items aren't free either. I'm not just goading you
> here - I'm really curious. It's one of those product decisions that
> simply don't make sense to me (such as, for example, the non-folding
> mirrors on my 99 Subaru - the hassle and po's customer factor couldn't
> possibly justify the minor savings, which is probably why they changed
> it on later models).

> -Andreas

by **cosmicharli** » Wed, 04 Oct 2006 19:46:37

You are making good points. I'm not familiar with the JP, F-2 or
Mistral anti-twist devices, but I'm going to look at them in the shops.

Quote:

> do you need a two***system to prevent twist? in my experience you
> don't. I think the system that is used by JP, F2, and Mistral works
> great at preventing twist, so I don't really have an issue w/ it. I
> have used countless other boards that use other anti-twist methods w/
> single hole inserts, and they have varying degrees of effectiveness
> (usually littl or none). I was just in San Carlos testing wave boards
> for a week, and the F2, JP, and Mistral boards I rode didn't have twist
> problems... the other boards did.

> I'm not a racer, and I only weigh 165lbs, so maybe my experience is not
> the same as yours, but I sail hard and over 200 days a year, and I
> don't have strap twist problems on my JP's.

> The real question for me is why would a board company use an anti-twist
> system that doesn't work? So, if you're just going to throw in a
> couple bottle caps w/ a board to prevent twist, I'd just wish that the
> builder would put double inserts in there instead. But, I would prefer
> a board builder to just use a good anti-twist system that is lighter
> and easier to adjust. Adjusting straps is a pain, and doubling the
> number of screws sounds terrible to me... especially considering that I
> don't have problems w/ strap twist.

> Anyway, I think the main reason builders use single inserts is because
> of weight. If you look at all the boards these days, they generally
> have shorter mast tracks, shorter a-boxes, and sometimes fewer
> footstrap inserts. Doesn't sound like it all adds up to much, but by
> the time you combine everything w/ less paint, etc... you get a boards
> that are pretty damn light and strong these days.

> kev

> BTW, I have a '99 Subaru w/ the aforementioned non-folding mirrors...
> now that's annoying!

> > > as far as single hole strap systems are concerned, I think the
> > > anti-twist system used by JP, Mistral, and F2 is the best.

> > So Kevin, any idea about the rationale behind sticking with the
> > single-hole systems? Can't be the minuscule per-board cost of extra
> > inserts and stainless screws - after all, the molded parts for all
> > those anti-twist items aren't free either. I'm not just goading you
> > here - I'm really curious. It's one of those product decisions that
> > simply don't make sense to me (such as, for example, the non-folding
> > mirrors on my 99 Subaru - the hassle and po's customer factor couldn't
> > possibly justify the minor savings, which is probably why they changed
> > it on later models).

> > -Andreas

by **Cliff Fros** » Thu, 05 Oct 2006 00:34:05

I have to admit that I have ridden JP boards some and never had a problem
with strap twisting, although in all cases someone else screwed the straps
in. (On one trip to Maui I rented a JP board for a week and at a Jason Voss
clinic on Maui I sailed JPs a lot, and I demo'd one of Kevin's boards a couple of
years ago.)

However, on my Starboard EVO (which I really like) I do suffer from footstrap
twist. Of course, I installed the straps on it and I'm a notorius klutz.

I'm over 200lbs and I do think us heavyweights have more problems with this.

Thankks,
Cliff

Quote:

> do you need a two***system to prevent twist? in my experience you
> don't. I think the system that is used by JP, F2, and Mistral works
> great at preventing twist, so I don't really have an issue w/ it. I
> have used countless other boards that use other anti-twist methods w/
> single hole inserts, and they have varying degrees of effectiveness
> (usually littl or none). I was just in San Carlos testing wave boards
> for a week, and the F2, JP, and Mistral boards I rode didn't have twist
> problems... the other boards did.
> I'm not a racer, and I only weigh 165lbs, so maybe my experience is not
> the same as yours, but I sail hard and over 200 days a year, and I
> don't have strap twist problems on my JP's.
> The real question for me is why would a board company use an anti-twist
> system that doesn't work? So, if you're just going to throw in a
> couple bottle caps w/ a board to prevent twist, I'd just wish that the
> builder would put double inserts in there instead. But, I would prefer
> a board builder to just use a good anti-twist system that is lighter
> and easier to adjust. Adjusting straps is a pain, and doubling the
> number of screws sounds terrible to me... especially considering that I
> don't have problems w/ strap twist.
> Anyway, I think the main reason builders use single inserts is because
> of weight. If you look at all the boards these days, they generally
> have shorter mast tracks, shorter a-boxes, and sometimes fewer
> footstrap inserts. Doesn't sound like it all adds up to much, but by
> the time you combine everything w/ less paint, etc... you get a boards
> that are pretty damn light and strong these days.
> kev
> BTW, I have a '99 Subaru w/ the aforementioned non-folding mirrors...
> now that's annoying!

> > > as far as single hole strap systems are concerned, I think the
> > > anti-twist system used by JP, Mistral, and F2 is the best.

> > So Kevin, any idea about the rationale behind sticking with the
> > single-hole systems? Can't be the minuscule per-board cost of extra
> > inserts and stainless screws - after all, the molded parts for all
> > those anti-twist items aren't free either. I'm not just goading you
> > here - I'm really curious. It's one of those product decisions that
> > simply don't make sense to me (such as, for example, the non-folding
> > mirrors on my 99 Subaru - the hassle and po's customer factor couldn't
> > possibly justify the minor savings, which is probably why they changed
> > it on later models).

> > -Andreas

by **cosmicharli** » Sat, 07 Oct 2006 20:50:50

You do put a lot of torque through your ankles into the straps with
that much weight. I find that when I was sailing a heavy board in
rather light winds that the torque on my front foot was dramatic. In
that case I was using the Dakine two***straps with anti-twist.
Often I feel pain in the ankles the day after, but this time it was
negligeable. With a re-aggrevated ankle sprain occuring last winter
and renewed activity ice skating regularly, I have been rather wary of
ankle stress. I can't see how you can screw-up (no pun intended)
installing footstraps unless you didn't adjust them correctly to your
foot size. If you change your footware, you may have to make an
adjustment. I also saw a guy storing boards with tennis balls stuck in
the straps. This reminds me of the ad they ran during the U.S. Tennis
open which showed many ways that people use Tennis balls other than
playing with them.

Quote:

> I have to admit that I have ridden JP boards some and never had a problem
> with strap twisting, although in all cases someone else screwed the straps
> in. (On one trip to Maui I rented a JP board for a week and at a Jason Voss
> clinic on Maui I sailed JPs a lot, and I demo'd one of Kevin's boards a couple of
> years ago.)

> However, on my Starboard EVO (which I really like) I do suffer from footstrap
> twist. Of course, I installed the straps on it and I'm a notorius klutz.

> I'm over 200lbs and I do think us heavyweights have more problems with this.

> Thankks,
> Cliff

> > do you need a two***system to prevent twist? in my experience you
> > don't. I think the system that is used by JP, F2, and Mistral works
> > great at preventing twist, so I don't really have an issue w/ it. I
> > have used countless other boards that use other anti-twist methods w/
> > single hole inserts, and they have varying degrees of effectiveness
> > (usually littl or none). I was just in San Carlos testing wave boards
> > for a week, and the F2, JP, and Mistral boards I rode didn't have twist
> > problems... the other boards did.

> > I'm not a racer, and I only weigh 165lbs, so maybe my experience is not
> > the same as yours, but I sail hard and over 200 days a year, and I
> > don't have strap twist problems on my JP's.

> > The real question for me is why would a board company use an anti-twist
> > system that doesn't work? So, if you're just going to throw in a
> > couple bottle caps w/ a board to prevent twist, I'd just wish that the
> > builder would put double inserts in there instead. But, I would prefer
> > a board builder to just use a good anti-twist system that is lighter
> > and easier to adjust. Adjusting straps is a pain, and doubling the
> > number of screws sounds terrible to me... especially considering that I
> > don't have problems w/ strap twist.

> > Anyway, I think the main reason builders use single inserts is because
> > of weight. If you look at all the boards these days, they generally
> > have shorter mast tracks, shorter a-boxes, and sometimes fewer
> > footstrap inserts. Doesn't sound like it all adds up to much, but by
> > the time you combine everything w/ less paint, etc... you get a boards
> > that are pretty damn light and strong these days.

> > kev

> > BTW, I have a '99 Subaru w/ the aforementioned non-folding mirrors...
> > now that's annoying!

> > > > as far as single hole strap systems are concerned, I think the
> > > > anti-twist system used by JP, Mistral, and F2 is the best.

> > > So Kevin, any idea about the rationale behind sticking with the
> > > single-hole systems? Can't be the minuscule per-board cost of extra
> > > inserts and stainless screws - after all, the molded parts for all
> > > those anti-twist items aren't free either. I'm not just goading you
> > > here - I'm really curious. It's one of those product decisions that
> > > simply don't make sense to me (such as, for example, the non-folding
> > > mirrors on my 99 Subaru - the hassle and po's customer factor couldn't
> > > possibly justify the minor savings, which is probably why they changed
> > > it on later models).

> > > -Andreas

by **a_ma..** » Wed, 11 Oct 2006 04:34:11

Quote:

> The real question for me is why would a board company use an anti-twist
> system that doesn't work? So, if you're just going to throw in a
> couple bottle caps w/ a board to prevent twist, I'd just wish that the
> builder would put double inserts in there instead.

Agreed!

>But, I would prefer

Quote:

> a board builder to just use a good anti-twist system that is lighter
> and easier to adjust. Adjusting straps is a pain, and doubling the
> number of screws sounds terrible to me... especially considering that I
> don't have problems w/ strap twist.

That sounds fine, as long as the anti-twist mechanism (a) works with
straps other than those provided by the mfg (as strap preferences are a
personal thing) and (b) doesn't require super-tightening the FS screws
to work (which promotes overtightening and splitting the plugs, as well
as often resulting in people stripping the***heads when using bad
drivers/technique).

Quote:

> Anyway, I think the main reason builders use single inserts is because
> of weight.

When I look at production boards, I'm often struck by the insane number
of possible strap positions anticipated by available plugs. Inboard,
semi-outboard, plus outboard settings for freeride boards. I guess
since every board I own is either a slalom or a Formula board, I don't
have much use for that; I could see how in a mass-market freeride board
that could make sense. And if you are looking at having that many more
plugs, I guess there might be a difference.

Quote:

> BTW, I have a '99 Subaru w/ the aforementioned non-folding mirrors...
> now that's annoying!

And ironically, the front cupholder on that car, which I have judged as
annoyingly flimsy, expecting it to fail any day ever since we got the
car 8 years and 115K miles ago, is still going strong. Go figure...

-Andreas

Sport Today

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