'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Troy Broo » Wed, 09 Oct 1991 02:14:13


Sorry if this is a FAQ or anything, but every time I think I understand
the difference between these terms, somebody uses one of them in a way
that contradicts it.

Now, "solo" I take to mean without a rope, chalk and shoes "allowed".
What is the difference between "aid" and "free" climbing, then?
Also, what does "redpoint" or "redpointing" mean?


I'll e-mail back a summary of replies.

Thanks!

Troy Brooks
"We don't need to stinking .sig file!"

 
 
 

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Jeff Elis » Thu, 10 Oct 1991 01:46:14

Quote:
> Now, "solo" I take to mean without a rope, chalk and shoes "allowed".
> What is the difference between "aid" and "free" climbing, then?
> Also, what does "redpoint" or "redpointing" mean?

Solo - alone - either "rope solo" where the soloist uses a rope and gear to
       protect herself or "free solo" meaning no rope.

Free - Rope and gear allowed, but used only to catch a fall.  The climber
       does not hang on gear to make progress.

Aid -  Gear is placed in the rock and the climber hangs from this while
       placing more gear higher, etc.  Gear is used to make progress.

Beta - from Betamax video - move by move description of a routes hard moves.

On-sight or a vue - Climber walks up to a route without prior knowledge and
       climbs from bottom to top with no falls and no hangs.  Without prior
       knowledge means no beta (move by move description), the climber hasn't
       tried it before and without watching someone else on the route.
       Knowledge of route location, name, and rating is OK.  Kind of the ideal
       ascent.

Flash - Climb from bottom to top without falls or hangs on your FIRST try.
       You may have prior knowledge.  Beta-flash means you flashed a route
       with the help of beta.

Redpoint - Climb from bottom to top without falls or hangs.  Redpoint implies
       that you have tried it before and fell or had to hang.  Redpoint used
       to imply that you placed any natural gear/quickdraws as you climbed.
       This is usually ignored these days.
       Redpoint has become the "ideal" ascent for people who like to climb
       above their flash ability.  They don't feel like they have "done" a
       route until they have redpointed it.  Involves a little integrity.

Pinkpoint - same as redpoint, but it implies that gear/quickdraws were already
       placed before you started.  Often not distinguished from redpoint.

Dogging or Hangdogging - Climbing until you fall at which point you hang on
       the rope like a DOG and regain your strength.  Then start from where
       you left off.

Of course some folks feel that the only "ideal ascent" is an on-sight solo
with no shoes, no clothes, no chalk, no glasses (and no brains).

Mort (once did a non-on-sight *** solo with shoes and chalk)

 
 
 

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Eric Hir » Fri, 11 Oct 1991 01:15:56

Quote:

>Mort (once did a non-on-sight *** solo with shoes and chalk)

Sooo...  Just where did Mort clip that chalk bag?

-Eric

 
 
 

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Rob Shar » Fri, 11 Oct 1991 01:43:26

 .........various terms used to desciibe an ascent ...

Quote:
>Beta - from Betamax video - move by move description of a routes hard moves.

>On-sight or a vue - Climber walks up to a route without prior knowledge and
>       .......Kind of the ideal ascent.

>Flash - Climb from bottom to top without falls or hangs on your FIRST try.
>       You may have prior knowledge.  Beta-flash means you flashed a route
>       with the help of beta.

I think it was an old issue of CLIMBING that had an interesting route
ascent described........even more coveted than an a vue flash......
...for an aspiring sport climber.......

...when the climber manages to flash a route eventhough he (she) begins
the route with the WRONG beta........

.....know as the BETA-SANDBAG FLASH..... ;)  

RMS

 
 
 

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Rolland Wate » Fri, 11 Oct 1991 01:10:55


Quote:

> Mort (once did a non-on-sight *** solo with shoes and chalk)

Ok, I give up.  How'd you hold up the chalkbag?

Rolland

 
 
 

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Andrew Krueg » Sun, 13 Oct 1991 03:11:43

Quote:
Bill Wright writes:
> This is a sore spot with me because it is blatant lying about
> what you have done.  A redpoint and a pinkpoint are distinctly
> DIFFERENT ascents.

One way to get a redpoint ascent with pinkpoint effort (only one motion) on a
bolted route (or any route with fixed gear) is:
on the ground, clip a quick draw to your shirt and clip the rope
through the free end.  When you reach the first bolt all you
have to do is take the end off your shirt and clip it into the bolt.  Now
you're safe.  Take another draw, attach to shirt and clip rope into free end.
Climb to next bolt and clip.  Repeat.

This method has some drawbacks.  If the draw unclips somehow, it's going to
slide back to the last piece, which is not good, so you want to make sure
you've clipped it to your shirt well.  On the other hand, if you clip it too
well, it can be *** to unclip  which is not good either.

It also isn't very stylish :-) but I've used it lots when I know there's some
dicey clips and the draws aren't in place and I don't want to waste precious
time and energy reaching up once to clip the draw into the bolt and again to clip
the rope into the draw.  Redpoint ascent, pinkpoint effort...?  

Andy Krueger

 
 
 

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Jeff Elis » Sat, 12 Oct 1991 04:51:22


Quote:

> > Mort (once did a non-on-sight *** solo with shoes and chalk)

> Ok, I give up.  How'd you hold up the chalkbag?

> Rolland

I've got very strong cheeks!

Mort (One loop of webbing around the waist.  I guess that makes it semi-***.)

 
 
 

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Jeff Elis » Sun, 13 Oct 1991 00:14:03

Quote:

>> Redpoint - Climb from bottom to top without falls or hangs.  Redpoint implies
>>        that you have tried it before and fell or had to hang.  Redpoint used
>>        to imply that you placed any natural gear/quickdraws as you climbed.
>>        This is usually ignored these days.
>>        Redpoint has become the "ideal" ascent for people who like to climb
>>        above their flash ability.  They don't feel like they have "done" a
>>        route until they have redpointed it.  Involves a little integrity.

>> Pinkpoint -same as redpoint, but it implies that gear/quickdraws were already
>>        placed before you started.  Often not distinguished from redpoint.
>This is a sore spot with me because it is blatant lying about
>what you have done.  A redpoint and a pinkpoint are distinctly
>DIFFERENT ascents.  One is a lot harder than the other on many
>difficult climbs -- any climbs that has overhanging clips.

I think we agree.  I'm not advocating pinkpoint ascents, but a few comments:

Not necessarily harder.  Only if the overhanging clips are from pumpy stances.
Lots of 5.12's have good stances for clipping and lots don't.

Quote:
>If there wasn't a difference than why would anyone pinkpoint?

Because it can be hard to get the gear down after a failed attempt - especially
if you are making many failed attempts!  Or because somebody else has left
draws on it for a later attempt.  These are the 2 main reasons I see.

Quote:
>It is merely a way of deluding yourself into thinking you led a
>climb.  Pinkpoint is a lot closer to a toprope than a redpoint
>on bolted sport routes.

Why bolted sport routes?  How about overhanging routes with natural gear.
This makes a hell of a lot more difference!  The difference between clipping
a draw in place and having to grab the draw off your harness and clip it is
nothing compared to*** out and grabbing a #7 stopper, wiggling it around,
finding out you need a #6, putting the #7 back on your rack, grabbing a #6,
wiggling it around, clipping a draw to it, and FINALLY clipping the rope in vs.
clipping into a pre-placed #6 stopper w/ draw.  (like D & T - right John)

How may true redpoints has the East Face of Monkey Face had?  Any?

Quote:
>Don't kid yourselves!  Climb any way
>you want (I do), but be honest about what you have done.

Agreed!  When I find myself finishing a sport route that a partner has given
up on I typically do the following:
   - pull the rope
   - at each bolt with a draw, unclip the draw and clip it to my harness
   - grab a different draw off my harness and clip it in
It may sound crazy, but it's alot more like a redpoint (maybe harder), and
saves having to rap the route to get the initial draws out.

Mort

 
 
 

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Eugene N. Mi » Sun, 13 Oct 1991 07:10:12

Quote:



>> > Mort (once did a non-on-sight *** solo with shoes and chalk)

>> Ok, I give up.  How'd you hold up the chalkbag?

>I've got very strong cheeks!

>Mort (One loop of webbing around the waist.  I guess that makes it semi-***.)

I thought you would hang your chalk bag using a biner like some women:
off an ear lobe like an ear ring.  Hanging from the mouth is also
acceptable.


  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene

 
 
 

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Bill Wrig » Sat, 12 Oct 1991 03:12:05

Quote:

> Redpoint - Climb from bottom to top without falls or hangs.  Redpoint implies
>        that you have tried it before and fell or had to hang.  Redpoint used
>        to imply that you placed any natural gear/quickdraws as you climbed.
>        This is usually ignored these days.
>        Redpoint has become the "ideal" ascent for people who like to climb
>        above their flash ability.  They don't feel like they have "done" a
>        route until they have redpointed it.  Involves a little integrity.

> Pinkpoint - same as redpoint, but it implies that gear/quickdraws were already
>        placed before you started.  Often not distinguished from redpoint.

This is a sore spot with me because it is blatant lying about
what you have done.  A redpoint and a pinkpoint are distinctly
DIFFERENT ascents.  One is a lot harder than the other on many
difficult climbs -- any climbs that has overhanging clips.  If
there wasn't a difference than why would anyone pinkpoint?  It
is merely a way of deluding yourself into thinking you led a
climb.  Pinkpoint is a lot closer to a toprope than a redpoint
on bolted sport routes.  Don't kid yourselves!  Climb any way
you want (I do), but be honest about what you have done.

--

             "You have to ask yourself just how much more
             black can it be. And the answer is: none.

 
 
 

'aid' vs. 'free' vs. 'solo'

Post by Jeff Elis » Wed, 16 Oct 1991 00:07:19


Quote:
> Bill Wright writes:
> > This is a sore spot with me because it is blatant lying about
> > what you have done.  A redpoint and a pinkpoint are distinctly
> > DIFFERENT ascents.

> One way to get a redpoint ascent with pinkpoint effort (only one motion) on a
> bolted route (or any route with fixed gear) is:
> on the ground, clip a quick draw to your shirt and clip the rope
> through the free end.  When you reach the first bolt all you
> have to do is take the end off your shirt and clip it into the bolt.  Now
> you're safe.  Take another draw, attach to shirt and clip rope into free end.
> Climb to next bolt and clip.  Repeat.

> This method has some drawbacks.  If the draw unclips somehow, it's going to
> slide back to the last piece, which is not good, so you want to make sure
> you've clipped it to your shirt well.  On the other hand, if you clip it too
> well, it can be *** to unclip  which is not good either.

The BIGGEST drawback occurs when you have ropedrag.  Trying to pull the slack
rope over your head thru the draw with ropedrag can be a nightmare.  I've
seen people blow clips because of it.

I used to do this, but not anymore. (OK maybe on rare occasions)

Mort