biner clipping to biner?

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Mary Y. Jaros » Tue, 23 Apr 1996 04:00:00


Interested in the groups opinion on clipping a carabiner to another
carabiner in an anchor set up (or for any climbing application).  Is it
considered acceptable?  Is it frequently done?  Would like alot of
opinions/considerations if possible.
Reason to do so might be to extend a piece of protection, to link pieces
of protection, whatever.
Friend of mine and I were having discussion on subject and have never
seen it well addressed other than it places more stress on a single
point of a carabiner and that it can contribute to twising a piece out
and possibly prone to self-unclipping of the biner connection.
Mary.
 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Bryan La » Wed, 24 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Mary,

I'm glad you asked the question because I was about to.  I have heard both
sides of the story.  If I remember correctly, the two peole that taught me
the basics of rock climbing (Too Strong Dave and Todd Gordon) advised
strongly against clipping biners together.  However, I noticed that in
John Longs book on Anchoring, he recommends it in several places.
Personally, I think its kind of sketchy but I too would like to hear the
physics or experience behind it!

 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Brian Moorhea » Wed, 24 Apr 1996 04:00:00

I am sure any basic rock climbing text will refer to this as a dangerous
practice.

 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Michael Margol » Thu, 25 Apr 1996 04:00:00

: I am sure any basic rock climbing text will refer to this as a dangerous
: practice.

Yeah. I feel the same way about it. However it's mentioned as "okay" in
John's Long "Climbing Anchors" (to my surprise).
I wouldn't do it anyway.

--

                                        Mike

 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Timpowel » Thu, 25 Apr 1996 04:00:00

+Interested in the groups opinion on clipping a carabiner to another
+carabiner in an anchor set up (or for any climbing application).  Is it
+considered acceptable?  Is it frequently done?  Would like alot of
+opinions/considerations if possible.
+Reason to do so might be to extend a piece of protection, to link pieces
+of protection, whatever.
+Friend of mine and I were having discussion on subject and have never
+seen it well addressed other than it places more stress on a single
+point of a carabiner and that it can contribute to twising a piece out
+and possibly prone to self-unclipping of the biner connection.

 >   Have you referred to  John Longs  basic rock climbing books, or
 >  Freedom of the Hills?  My understanding is that one seldom
 >   if ever  clips biner to biner for  suspending loads.  My vocabulary
 >  is lacking, but this can put a torque load across the side of
 >   the biner instead of end to end.  I've always read that you
 >  should use quickdraws between two biners.  If you need longer
 >  protection, carry more draws, or  longer loops on your pro.

A common practice in the seventies, but that was with ovals or straight
"D" biners.  With all the new bent-gate biners, it has become a little
more dicey.  I don't really see how clipping two biners could put any more
of a torque load on the side of a biner than webbing or quick-draws under
normal use, but quickdraws certainly provide more flexibility to help keep
a piece in place as you climb by.  Webbing is usually better, but I
wouldn't call clipping two biners together "dangerous".  I've never heard
of this kind of failure in normal climbing situations, other than bent
gates unclipping themselves.

As for John Long's anchoring book and videos, they were done several years
ago with slightly different equipment and techniques, but the concepts
still apply.  I wouldn't take any book (including Freedom of the Hills) as
the final answer... it's the concepts that they present that are
important.  

TP

 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Robert All » Thu, 25 Apr 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
>+Interested in the groups opinion on clipping a carabiner to another
>+carabiner in an anchor set up (or for any climbing application).  Is it
>+considered acceptable?  Is it frequently done?  Would like alot of
>+opinions/considerations if possible.
>+Reason to do so might be to extend a piece of protection, to link pieces
>+of protection, whatever.
>+Friend of mine and I were having discussion on subject and have never
>+seen it well addressed other than it places more stress on a single
>+point of a carabiner and that it can contribute to twising a piece out
>+and possibly prone to self-unclipping of the biner connection.

> >   Have you referred to  John Longs  basic rock climbing books, or
> >  Freedom of the Hills?  My understanding is that one seldom
> >   if ever  clips biner to biner for  suspending loads.  My vocabulary
> >  is lacking, but this can put a torque load across the side of
> >   the biner instead of end to end.  I've always read that you
> >  should use quickdraws between two biners.  If you need longer
> >  protection, carry more draws, or  longer loops on your pro.

        Damn, I cancelled this one but apparently it made it out anyhow.
        Ooops.

Quote:

>A common practice in the seventies, but that was with ovals or straight
>"D" biners.  With all the new bent-gate biners, it has become a little
>more dicey.  I don't really see how clipping two biners could put any more
>of a torque load on the side of a biner than webbing or quick-draws under
>normal use, but quickdraws certainly provide more flexibility to help keep
>a piece in place as you climb by.  Webbing is usually better, but I
>wouldn't call clipping two biners together "dangerous".  I've never heard
>of this kind of failure in normal climbing situations, other than bent
>gates unclipping themselves.

        If you have multiple biners hooked together and you rotate
        the chain axially in opposite directions  you put loads on
        them that they are not ideally suited to taking.  Using
        a piece of webbing  between them puts the  stress on the
        webbing and not on the biner gates.

        The other issue with chains of multiple biners is perhaps
        that in certain obscure cases where the biners  are unweighted
        and then take a knock is that the gates  could momentarily
        snap open. This is a pretty obscure possibility, but the  more
        gates in the chain the  greater the odds that one could open
        and something could pop out.

---

        My opinions are my own and no one elses.


 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by 10012.. » Thu, 25 Apr 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>I am sure any basic rock climbing text will refer to this as a dangerous
>practice.

So why is it dangerous?
 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Clyde Sol » Fri, 26 Apr 1996 04:00:00


Quote:


> : I am sure any basic rock climbing text will refer to this as a dangerous
> : practice.

> Yeah. I feel the same way about it. However it's mentioned as "okay" in
> John's Long "Climbing Anchors" (to my surprise).
> I wouldn't do it anyway.

It's usually not a good idea but the main concern is clipping two biners
together when one is attached to a fixed anchor -- they can unclip themselves
with frightening ease. If both are on slings and can pivot freely that "may" not
happen.
 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Avaja » Fri, 26 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Not real dangerous. Everyones done it that's been climbing for very long.
Since everyone hase draws and short runners these days it's probably
better to have the webbing in between.  I never used to have enough short
runners and I would ofter use two biners on a piece because it made the
rope run better and because I didn't want to add the extra distance to a
possible fall by putting on a long runner.

Nuff said - Don't worry about it

 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Chris Weave » Fri, 26 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Quote:



>>I am sure any basic rock climbing text will refer to this as a dangerous
>>practice.

>So why is it dangerous?

It is a bit dangerous because of the increased likelihood that if the
biners twist around one direction or the other, one of them will unclip
itself against the other.  This is a definite possibility.  Having said
that, however, I see no reason not to use biner to biner links if there is
little chance of the setup twisting, such as at the belay where you can
watch them, at the end of a long runner, using locking biners, etc.

Be safe!
Chris Weaver

 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Loui C » Sat, 27 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Quote:
>>Interested in the groups opinion on clipping a carabiner to
>>another carabiner in an anchor set up (or for any climbing
>>application).

Climbing doesn't have many hard and fast rules. If it did, they'd
have to be broken too often. When you are considering clipping
ANY two hard points together (hey, we do it all the time clipping
into ascenders, descenders, etc, right?) I would suggest
considering at least these points first:

1) The lack of a flexible connection between hard points does
increase the potential for a carabiner to unclip itself... a
problem prevalent enough that it has a name: Dynamic Rollout. In
fact, this practice has resulted in deaths. Consider the
ramifications of potential twist or torque in the system and
whether it might be better offset by a simple soft connection
like a sling or QD. If the addition of a soft connection isn't
going to cost you too dearly, it may be a good idea.

2) Hard points generally do not flex or otherwise allow force
absorption to occur. Therefore, consider whether any potential
force will cause damage to placements, persons or other pieces in
the system.

Loui Clem

--
DISCLAIMER >> PMI/PETZL signs my paychecks but, unless otherwise
stated, opinions and statements herein are my own . . .

 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by ebo.. » Sat, 27 Apr 1996 04:00:00

As has been pointed out prior (albeit a year ago), biner-to-biner
results in a much higher stress concentration which means the force
required for failure will, most likely, be much lower. For a static
situation it is probably not terribly dangerous. In a dynamic,
impulse loading situation (leader fall) it definitely is.

Webbing increases the area over which the load is applied therefore
reducing the stress (stress = force per unit area).

-E

 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Jeff Elis » Sat, 27 Apr 1996 04:00:00

: As has been pointed out prior (albeit a year ago), biner-to-biner
: results in a much higher stress concentration which means the force
: required for failure will, most likely, be much lower. For a static
: situation it is probably not terribly dangerous. In a dynamic,
: impulse loading situation (leader fall) it definitely is.

: Webbing increases the area over which the load is applied therefore
: reducing the stress (stress = force per unit area).

Does this really matter?  What about a biner clipped into a thin bolt
hanger?

Mort

 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by p.. » Sat, 27 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Not real dangerous. Everyones done it that's been climbing for very long.

Well -- certainly there are more dangerous things you can do (some of which
have had their advocates on rec.climbing), but I still caution: Don't do it.
Especially if you have to ask "Why not?" since that probably indicates you're
not ready to judge whether it's "real dangerous" or "low risk" in the
particular situation.

Well, I've been climbing since 1958 and I can't remember ever doing it.
(If I did, it was so long ago I can't remember.)  Clipping packs and
gear in on belay ledges doesn't count.

Quote:
> Since everyone hase draws and short runners these days it's probably
> better to have the webbing in between.  I never used to have enough short
> runners and I would ofter use two biners on a piece because it made the
> rope run better and because I didn't want to add the extra distance to a
> possible fall by putting on a long runner.

Webbing's cheap -- much cheaper than biners.  Why not carry enough.
Hey, if the runner's too long, double it or tie it shorter.

Quote:

> Nuff said - Don't worry about it

I won't worry about it, but I won't do it either.

                                        Phil Sidel

 
 
 

biner clipping to biner?

Post by Avaja » Sat, 27 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Well Phil -what about what the guy said about a binner on a bolt hanger.
He just won this discussion.