KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by CSEPLO,STEPHEN » Fri, 03 Sep 1993 22:25:26


Hey folks. Below is the text of a letter I received yesterday from Val &
Co. regarding the subject. Looks like the infamous survey is dead. Oh
well, at least I got a spiffy patch last year that now has a place of
honor on my jacket.

In case you're wondering, no I didn't retype the entire thing. It is
ammazing what OCR can do these days. In this case, Textbridge. From
paper to scanner to software to ASCII to disk to upload and now to
you. Man I love it.

Consider this an unsolicited testimonial for the product.

8807 Liberty Road
P.O. Box 466
Randallstown, Maryland 21133-0466
USA
Tel:    410-922-1212
Fax:    410-922-4262

August, 1993

Dear Sport Kiter:

        What's happening with the Great Kite Lines Stunter Survey? You had to ask. We have to
answer!

        Our flow of activity this spring was interrupted when we ran shorthanded at Kite Lines. With
some temporary help, we did get our next issue out (Summer-Fall 1993) and it's in the mail now.
But it did cause us to neglect the Stunter Survey.

        Upon hearing of the sad loss of Stunt Kite QuarterIy, Kite Lines offered to assume fulfillment of
the SKQ subscriber list. Although we won't exactly fill the niche vacated by SKQ, we plan to devote
more of our attention to stunt kites. In every future issue of Kite Lines, you will see the changes,
including reviews of sport kites and a department focusing on new technical developments. We feel
the new contents will largely take the place of the Stunter Survey. We have therefore decided to
drop the Survey.

        We had some problems with the Stunter Survey anyway. First, It took an enormous amount of
time for staff and volunteers. Second, we found it difficult to obtain evaluations of all the kites we
wanted to list; that is, kites would go out of production before the results were published, and new
kites would come out past the time-frame of our tallying-and-publishing process.

        We are sorry to abandon the Survey for several reasons, mainly because we had built a very
enjoyable relationship with you, our faithful panelists. We had seen a club-like atmosphere develop,
with good personal dialogue on all sides. Our adverti***t for panelists in our Spring issue result-
ed in a wonderful response from new evaluators who now we hate like the devil to turn away.

        We don't have to end it all so abruptly. I would like to think we can call on you again from
time to time, both as individuals and as an objective panel. We hope that any personal disappoint-
ment in our decision will be replaced by pleasure at the new contents in future issues of Kite Lines.

        This letter is written to tell you what we're thinking and doing here, but we would certainly
very much appreciate hearing what you are thinking and doing. Please send us your thoughts or
opinions by mail or fax. Your feedback is valuable and we truly want to hear from you.

Best breezes,

Valerie Govig

Publisher-Editor

QUARTERLY JOURNAL OF THE WORLDWIDE KITE COMMUNITY
--

Steve Cseplo                       |A|               The Mad Hata
AKA Region 5 Director              |K|
Eastern Conference Commissioner    |A|    "Hey, mon...Tako Kichi!"

 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by Simo Salan » Sat, 04 Sep 1993 03:43:32


Quote:
>Hey folks. Below is the text of a letter I received yesterday from Val &
>Co. regarding the subject. Looks like the infamous survey is dead.

No problem. rec.kites own survey has been, will be,
better & less biased.

Simo

 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by kyte.. » Sat, 04 Sep 1993 10:35:11

Simo said:
<< No problem. rec.kites own survey has been, will be,
better & less biased.  >>

As the chief tabulator/annotator of the first two KL surveys, and co-designer
of the second, I gotta ask, with all defensiveness aside  ;-)  

Whattayou mean by that?



 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by Simo Salan » Sat, 04 Sep 1993 18:26:17

Quote:

>Simo said:
><< No problem. rec.kites own survey has been, will be,
>better & less biased.  >>
>As the chief tabulator/annotator of the first two KL surveys, and co-designer
>of the second, I gotta ask, with all defensiveness aside  ;-)  
>Whattayou mean by that?

Rec.kites survey is issued more often, it has descriptions
of the kites, etc... To me it has been more value than
KL surveys.

I don't have the last Kite Lines survey at hand but I still
remember wondering how such a *perfect* kite as Overflots
(got maximum ratings from all (3?) evaluators) can exist?

On the other hand, evaluators were said to be independent
of manufacturers. I simple cannot believe that's true in
the Overflots case.

Smooth Winds
Simo

 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by Simo Salan » Sat, 04 Sep 1993 23:51:21

Quote:

>Simo said:
><< No problem. rec.kites own survey has been, will be,
>better & less biased.  >>
>As the chief tabulator/annotator of the first two KL surveys, and co-designer
>of the second, I gotta ask, with all defensiveness aside  ;-)
>Whattayou mean by that?

I suppose Brooks was not on the net when the Kite Lines Survey
was issued, hopefully the following exerpts from rec.kites
golden oldies archive give some view how rec.kites reacted
then. The survey referenced by rec.kites articles was published
in Kite Lines Spring-Summer 1992, Vol. 9 No. 2.

Now, when I have reviewed the survey and rec.kites articles about
it, I found another similar "joke", as Jeff describes between
Phantoms, between the "winner" Overflots and Big Brother.

Would be interesting to know how many of rec.kiters went to
their favourite kite shop asking for Overflots, because of
KL survey? Does any of you fly KL survey 1992 winner today?
I don't.

Smooth Winds
Simo

Four articles from archives follow:


Subject: Kite Lines Survey!?!?!
Date: 9 Aug 92 07:58:17 GMT

The other night I got into some heated discussion with some friends over
the (infamous) KiteLines Stunt Kite Survey, which now seems to be a yearly
event. In the survey points awarded by a variety of judges on a wide range
of features (ease of assembly, value for money, colour scheme of bag, etc.)
are tallied to produce a ranking of thirty or so stunt kites.

Of the two or three surveys which I have seen I have disagreed very strongly
with the system and the results, and can best describe the whole exercise
as a crock of shit which could be seriously misleading (and expensive!) for
a novice flier.

I'm not trying to criticise any of the judges involved or the attempt to
create a guide of kite strengths and weaknesses for the prospective
buyer; but this thing just don't work.

Does anyone out their have any other opinions upon the survey, for or
against? Is the whole idea of trying to rank such a varied range of kites
a good one? Let the debate begin!

Jason Hellwege                                  La Trobe Uni, Melbourne, Oz.

P.S. I am loosely associated with a certain kite maufacturer, one of whose
products is ranked near the bottom of this year's survey (somewhat unjustly
in my opinion) but my thoughts upon the survey were well established before
I saw this years chart.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject: Re: Kite Lines Survey!?!?!
Date: 9 Aug 92 14:19:44 GMT

Quote:

>The other night I got into some heated discussion with some friends over
>the (infamous) KiteLines Stunt Kite Survey, which now seems to be a yearly
>event.
>Of the two or three surveys which I have seen I have disagreed very strongly
>with the system and the results, and can best describe the whole exercise
>as a crock of shit which could be seriously misleading (and expensive!) for
>a novice flier.

For the most part, the KiteLines survey is a joke.  To me, one of the
funniest (and most telling) aspects of this joke is the fact that the
"High Flyers Phantom Shadow" is ranked 3rd and the "High Flyers Phantom" is
ranked 12th with a total of 5.03 points difference.  Someone should probably
point out to them that they're the same kite; the only difference is the
color scheme.

Another joke is the "ease of assembly" category, where the variance strikes
me as ridiculous.  Almost all deltas are assembled the same way, and generally
speaking, if you can put one together, you can put just about all of them
together.  Admittedly, there are a few kites that can be difficult to
assemble.  The stock Tracer, for instance, is a pain because the bottom
spreaders have a tendency to pull out of the vinyls before you get the stand-
offs on.  The knocks Simmons uses on the stand-offs are dangerous because
if you don't check they're alignment, you puncture your sail.  Another
difficult kite is the Cyborg (but that's with good reason!)  But I've
absolutely no idea why Tim Benson's Hi Profile was given such a low rating
in this category.  It's just like any other delta, but with an extra set
or two of stand-offs.

On the other hand, I do agree with some of the findings.  The survey isn't
a total waste of time...just mostly.  ;-)

Quote:
>P.S. I am loosely associated with a certain kite maufacturer, one of whose
>products is ranked near the bottom of this year's survey (somewhat unjustly
>in my opinion) but my thoughts upon the survey were well established before
>I saw this years chart.

Since you're down in Australia, I have to assume this is the Checkmate.
While I don't know that this kite deserved to be _last_, I certainly wasn't
impressed when I flew it a month ago.

Jeff

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject: Re: Kite Lines Survey!?!?!
Date: 9 Aug 92 16:28:28 GMT



|>>The other night I got into some heated discussion with some friends over
|>>the (infamous) KiteLines Stunt Kite Survey, which now seems to be a yearly
|>>event.
|>
|>>Of the two or three surveys which I have seen I have disagreed very strongly
|>>with the system and the results, and can best describe the whole exercise
|>>as a crock of shit which could be seriously misleading (and expensive!) for
|>>a novice flier.
|>
|>For the most part, the KiteLines survey is a joke.  To me, one of the
|>funniest (and most telling) aspects of this joke is the fact that the
|>"High Flyers Phantom Shadow" is ranked 3rd and the "High Flyers Phantom" is
|>ranked 12th with a total of 5.03 points difference.  Someone should probably
|>point out to them that they're the same kite; the only difference is the
|>color scheme.

The solution is to come up with a better system. Many of the postings
in this group ask questions about what kites to buy and how kite A
compares to kites B and C. The Kite Lines Stunt Kite Survey tries to
answer these questions.

Kite Lines keeps trying to come up with a way that is fair and useful
and that presents the information in a concise manner.

As more and more kites come onto the market, and as the technology
keeps changing for these kites, the problem will become larger.

I don't know if there is a way to fix the problems with the survey,
and I agree, there are loads of problems with it. The best thing to do
for the sport is to come up with a better way of presenting the
information, or to come up with a convincing argument that there isn't
a fair and useful way to run such a survey.
--

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject: Re: Kite Lines Survey!?!?!
Date: 10 Aug 92 16:24:13 GMT

The KITELINES Sport Kite Survey?

Well, as we all know, Mel Govig isn't to big a fan of sport kites so it's
not surprising that the survey is not perfect. Personally, I say big deal.
All surveys are pretty useless if you really think about it, and this one
is no different. What you've got are a bunch of opinions collected and
weighted about sport kites so it does give a good overall impression
about what people think. And that's about all.

SKQ gives better information when they review a kite, but then again
as I understand it, they first let the manufacturer look over the article
before publication and if they don't say nice things the manufacturer can
have the article pulled. Net result, you'll never see a negative review there.

Well, this leaves talking to people to get advice and opinions. Once you
get beyond the basics and can decently control a kite, much of your
opinion of a kite has to do with your particular flying style and how the
kite matches it. Person A might love Kite #1 while Person B hates the
same kite. This is not to say that one is right and the other wrong,
just a difference of opinion.

In conclussion, at least KiteLines is trying! It's not the absolute
word, but there will probably never be such. Just remeber it is a survey
and not a scientific study.

PS: We didn't even get a patch for taking the time to fill out their forms
and fly some kites for the review this year. How cheap.

The Mad Hata

 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by Marty Sasa » Sun, 05 Sep 1993 01:15:48

Quote:

>Simo said:
><< No problem. rec.kites own survey has been, will be,
>better & less biased.  >>

>As the chief tabulator/annotator of the first two KL surveys, and co-designer
>of the second, I gotta ask, with all defensiveness aside  ;-)  

>Whattayou mean by that?

Rec.kites has lots of advantages of any regular publication and I
suspect that is why rec.kites is a better place for kite reviews and
surveys. Amount other things:

        - rec.kites can come out more often.
        - rec.kites contains reviews and really isn't a survey.
        - in addition to the review part of the FAQ, individuals do
          review kites as they fly them, and these reviews can be more
          timely than any regular publication.
        - rec.kites is interactive. If something is unclear, then
          questions can be asked and answered to clear things up.
        - in rec.kites you know who the reviewer is.

Of course there is a major downside, you have a lot more stuff to look
through to find the information that you want...
--
Marty Sasaki            Harvard University           Sasaki Kite Fabrications

617-496-4320            10 Ware Street               Jamaica Plain, MA 02130
                        Cambridge, MA 02138-4002     phone/fax: 617-522-8546

 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by Simo Salan » Mon, 06 Sep 1993 03:05:41


Quote:
>In the meantime, until something positive happens, I would like to
>see the KiteLines Survey maintained and continued in some way that
>is accessible to World Kitefliers, not just those who access
>Internet. It is a big task to revive something that has been allowed
>to lapse. And a thankless task to maintain things that haven't lapsed.

Well here it is....

                                            # of ------- Ease of ---- Straight Turn Maneuv./             Visual Workman-             Wind   Skill Amount Amount
Total                                 Evaluators Asmbly Launch Landing Speed  Speed Precis.DurabilPortabiAppeal   ship  Value        (m/s)  Req'd  noise of pull
+----+---------------------------------------+--+------+------+-------+------+-----+------+------+------+------+-------+-----+-------------+-----+------+-------+
 84.1 Skynasaur Inc. Tracer                   16    4.5    4.3    4.9    4.5    3.9    4.4    4.4    3.4    3.9    3.2    5.0      3 to  6    3.7    2.6    3.3
 79.5 Spectra Sport Kites Edge                17    3.8    4.9    3.9    3.8    2.9    3.5    4.3    4.4    4.5    4.9    2.9      3 to 13    4.7    2.9    3.8
 78.0 Hyperkites Elite Freestyle               4    3.8    4.7    3.0    4.8    4.1    4.7    4.4    3.0    4.8    2.7    2.9      3 to 11    2.2    4.5    3.0
 77.6 Wind Walker/Gayla Wasp A/C              16    4.9    4.3    3.5    2.0    4.5    4.7    3.7    4.8    3.8    2.8    4.0      4 to  7    3.6    2.9    2.8
 77.2 Top Of The Line North Shore Radical VIP 11    4.8    2.6    3.5    3.7    4.9    3.6    2.8    3.3    3.4    5.0    4.9      3 to  3    3.0    4.2    2.8
 75.7 Flexifoil Scorpion                      19    3.4    3.5    4.3    4.5    2.9    3.9    4.0    4.7    4.8    3.6    2.3      4 to 10    3.5    4.7    3.0
 75.3 Overflots Black & Stripes               12    4.4    3.5    4.6    4.0    2.7    3.1    4.4    4.4    4.2    2.0    4.8      3 to  7    4.3    4.0    4.6
 73.8 High Flyers Phantom Shadow              14    3.7    4.0    2.2    4.8    3.3    3.4    3.3    4.9    4.2    3.2    4.1      3 to  5    2.2    2.6    4.3
 73.0 Sky Delight Kites Neptune               10    3.5    3.2    2.3    2.7    2.3    4.9    4.3    3.7    3.9    4.6    3.9      2 to  7    3.1    2.1    2.6
 72.5 Jordan Air Pro                          19    2.2    2.3    3.6    3.2    4.5    4.0    3.5    3.1    3.4    4.9    4.3      4 to  4    2.6    4.7    3.8
 72.2 R-Kites Exocet                           6    2.3    4.6    3.1    4.5    2.4    4.2    4.3    4.5    3.3    4.1    2.2      4 to  6    2.7    3.6    2.2
 72.1 Julian Wolfe Patrick Big Brother        11    2.8    2.5    4.4    2.8    4.7    2.3    3.7    4.8    3.7    3.4    4.7      4 to  9    4.3    2.9    5.0
 71.9 Chigaco Fire Kite Co. Magnum Opus       13    4.6    3.4    4.9    4.1    3.9    2.3    4.4    2.4    2.3    4.4    3.1      2 to  7    2.2    4.1    4.0
 71.7 Cerf-Volants Azur Spyro-Jet Freestyle    5    2.5    3.5    3.3    4.8    3.9    2.0    4.6    2.1    4.3    5.0    2.9      2 to  3    4.9    2.1    4.1
 71.5 Action Kites Fire Dart                  18    4.3    3.5    3.6    3.0    2.8    4.3    4.5    4.6    3.5    2.7    2.8      4 to  9    2.7    2.2    3.4
 71.3 Highly Strung Kites Check-mate          14    2.6    3.3    3.6    4.5    3.4    2.4    4.3    3.1    3.7    3.2    4.9      2 to 11    4.0    4.9    5.0
 70.6 One Of Jerry's Kites Peregrine          16    4.0    3.9    3.9    2.0    4.7    3.3    4.0    3.3    3.0    2.4    4.4      3 to  9    4.1    2.8    2.1
 70.2 Banshee Kite Co. Scimitar                7    2.3    3.5    4.7    3.3    2.3    2.2    4.9    4.5    2.8    4.1    3.9      4 to  4    3.9    4.1    4.4
 69.8 Top Of The Line Hawaiian Team           11    3.6    4.0    2.7    3.5    5.0    4.9    2.6    4.5    2.2    3.1    2.6      2 to  9    4.2    4.7    3.4
 69.1 Top Of The Line North Shore Kona         6    3.9    4.1    4.5    3.8    3.4    2.3    2.5    2.4    3.0    3.8    4.7      2 to  8    2.3    3.5    4.0
 69.0 Ram Jet Kites Turbo Jet                 16    2.4    4.8    2.7    2.7    2.8    2.7    4.8    4.7    2.0    4.4    3.6      2 to  8    3.8    2.1    4.8
 68.8 One Of Jerry's Kites Peregrine UL       18    3.6    3.9    3.2    4.6    2.6    4.4    4.7    2.0    3.6    2.5    2.4      2 to  8    3.1    4.5    2.6
 68.5 The Kite Store LiteFlite                14    2.3    4.7    3.4    3.4    4.5    3.1    4.9    3.3    2.0    3.5    2.3      3 to  4    2.1    2.8    2.4
 68.2 Top Of The Line North Shore Radical     11    3.2    4.4    2.7    3.4    3.2    3.0    4.7    4.3    4.5    2.2    2.2      4 to 10    2.3    3.5    2.8
 68.2 Skyward Kites NBK                        4    3.3    2.1    4.9    4.6    2.7    3.2    3.3    2.1    3.2    3.1    5.0      4 to 10    2.3    4.0    4.9
 67.7 Frontier Kites Team Storm                8    3.0    3.3    2.0    2.6    4.9    3.5    2.2    2.7    4.9    3.3    4.3      2 to 11    2.5    4.1    3.2
 67.4 High Fly Kite Co. Team High Fly Pro Am  16    3.4    3.3    4.4    2.6    4.9    2.3    3.0    2.9    2.4    4.4    3.5      4 to 12    3.1    3.6    4.6
 67.3 Top Of The Line Spin-Off UL             10    2.0    3.7    3.7    2.4    4.3    2.7    3.1    4.7    4.6    3.7    2.2      2 to 11    2.6    2.1    4.9
 66.2 Chigaco Fire Kite Co. Bee                8    3.8    2.8    2.3    2.6    4.7    4.3    2.9    2.0    2.5    4.5    3.5      3 to  7    2.9    3.5    4.9
 66.1 Stinger Kite Co. Stinger 1000            9    4.5    2.8    2.1    2.2    2.0    4.1    3.1    4.4    3.8    4.5    2.8      3 to  8    3.7    2.9    3.1
 66.0 Spectra Sport Kites Edge UL             12    2.6    2.9    4.0    2.8    4.3    3.5    3.7    2.9    3.0    3.6    2.8      2 to  6    4.4    3.6    4.1
 65.3 Spectra Sport Slingshot                 19    3.7    3.4    4.4    2.3    4.2    2.9    2.6    3.7    2.9    3.2    3.0      4 to 10    3.4    4.7    2.7
 64.9 Skyburner Sport Kites Skyburner         15    2.3    2.2    3.8    3.8    2.5    3.1    2.1    3.1    4.3    4.5    3.7      4 to 11    4.6    2.8    3.4
 63.4 Top Of The Line Spin-Off                17    3.8    2.7    3.0    2.0    2.2    4.0    2.3    2.8    4.0    2.9    4.9      3 to 13    4.4    2.9    4.8
 63.3 Aerialogics Cyborg VIII                 13    4.8    3.4    3.0    3.0    2.7    2.3    2.4    3.2    2.8    4.2    3.5      4 to 13    3.7    2.0    2.7
 62.6 Tim Benson High Profile                 17    2.9    4.2    2.1    2.2    3.4    2.1    3.7    4.0    2.9    3.7    3.2      3 to  9    4.9    4.4    4.3
 60.6 Wind Walker Waps                        14    4.7    2.3    2.2    3.3    3.5    2.9    4.1    2.2    3.6    2.2    2.5      4 to 13    4.7    3.0    4.2

The evaluators have absolutely no connections to manufacturers.
To be sure, it continues same way, we don't publish their names.

If you want to get a new kite in the survey, please send us a sample
and it will be included in the next survey.

Santa Claus Kite Laboratory
99999 Korvatunturi
Finland

 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by kyte.. » Mon, 06 Sep 1993 14:42:27

Santa Claus Kite Laboratory of Finland, posting over the pen name "Simo
Salanne" has offered what appears to be a replication of the subject survey.

While I have a helluva time trying to read it on my machine -- the tabs don't
translate -- it appears to be essentially the same grading system, just
different reviewers and quantities thereof, and of course, different rankings
of fewer kites.

Of course, there is absolutely no documentation of whether in fact these are
Santa Simo's ratings or those of a hand-picked group of elves, or a bunch of
purely fictional numbers.

My reaction is, OK, some kites that were highly ranked in last year's KL
survey were ranked lower in Santa's and vice versa.  I expect that if I could
read the ***y thing I would find that the **general shape** of the rankings
in Santa's survey might well be similar to those in KL's.  A real turkey
isn't likely to turn into a swan, or the reverse.

That's my main point.  These things are most useful when taken broadly. I
agree with Colin that the KL surveys, warts and all, have been a valuable
tool to compare kites, not to nit-pick them.  And though I haven't seen the
vaunted r.k "survey" -- send it to me, willya, Marty? --  I can't believe it
is "less biased".   I know from being intimately involved that the KL surveys
have bent over backwards to avoid that sort of thing, and I'd guess nothing
resembling those protective measures have been applied to a rec.kites
evaluation.  (I'll not comment on the cheap shots about Mel Govig's taste in
kites, or KL's taking stunter advertising except to say *categorically* that
neither has had any influence whatsoever on the results.)

Now, Santa, tell us your methodology.


 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by Colin Douthwai » Sun, 05 Sep 1993 06:09:43

Quote:

> Hey folks. Below is the text of a letter I received yesterday from
> Val & Co. regarding the subject. Looks like the infamous survey is
> dead.  

Val & Co>  In every future issue of Kite Lines, you will see the
Val & Co>  changes, including reviews of sport kites and a department
Val & Co>  focusing on new technical developments. We feel the new
Val & Co>  contents will largely take the place of the Stunter
Val & Co>  Survey. We have therefore decided to drop the Survey.  

Well I think that is bad news :-(

It is the only survey I have seen which actually _compares_ Kites.

Individual kite reviews are interesting but give me no real
appreciation of how their characteristics compare with all the
others. The Survey did give this comparison even if the values and
assessments were controversial and/or of questionable meaning.

In the Stunter Survey there were Kites which I could identify, and
compare with what I see here although the majority of surveyed kites
relate to the American scene.  

I had thought about suggesting that "KiteLines" include dimensions
of the Kites, at least Length x Width and perhaps Weight.

KiteLines recently did a similar Fighter Kite Survey. I guess this
will also be abandoned ?  

So, what do I do ?  Write a letter of dismay to "KiteLines" ??
Perhaps I'll just print this posting and send it Snailmail to
KiteLines.

Just my NZ$ 0.02 cents worth !!

BTW, why are KiteLines not on the Internet ?  We could give them
instant feedback, good and bad !!

Colin Douthwaite
New Zealand
4 Sep 1993

 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by Colin Douthwai » Sun, 05 Sep 1993 14:24:52

Quote:

> Hey folks. Below is the text of a letter I received yesterday from Val &
> Co. regarding the subject. Looks like the infamous survey is dead.


Quote:
> As the chief tabulator/annotator of the first two KL surveys, and
> co-designer of the second, I gotta ask, with all defensiveness aside ;-)  

Please accept _My_ thanks, for your work. I see no reason for you to
be defensive about your efforts on the Stunter Survey.  


Quote:
> No problem. rec.kites own survey has been, will be, better & less
> biased.  

You may have noticed two things recently about the rec.kites Stunter
Review:

1) Paul Kalowski, author of the Stunter Review, has not posted
   anything in rec.kites for some time. He also has not responded to
   private mail. I suspect he is too busy or has dropped his
   Internet connection.

2) Earlier this year Paul was specifically asking for contributions
   to his Stunter Review. His last posting of the Review had no new
   surveys in it. People are clearly not contributing.  

Can we be certain that the rec.kites Stunter Survey FAQ will
continue to be maintained ??  Or indeed, any of the FAQs ??

If rec.kites contributors want to take on the Stunter Kite
"Comparitive" Survey, instead of KiteLines, I have no quarrel with
that. Perhaps rec.kiters can successfully overcome the clearly
negative responses to the "KiteLines" efforts.  
[ Negative response is probably the real reason why "KiteLines" have
  decided to discontinue their Survey ].  

In the meantime, until something positive happens, I would like to
see the KiteLines Survey maintained and continued in some way that
is accessible to World Kitefliers, not just those who access
Internet. It is a big task to revive something that has been allowed
to lapse. And a thankless task to maintain things that haven't lapsed.


Quote:
> In case you're wondering, no I didn't retype the entire thing. It
> is ammazing what OCR can do these days. In this case, Textbridge.  
> From paper to scanner to software to ASCII to disk to upload and
> now to you. Man I love it.  

Please educate me :-)

What are:  OCR and Textbridge

[ I know that "Trent Bridge" is Nottingham's (UK) Cricket Ground :-) ]

Colin Douthwaite
New Zealand
4 Sep 1993

 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by Simo Salan » Tue, 07 Sep 1993 16:29:58

Quote:

>Santa Claus Kite Laboratory of Finland, posting over the pen name "Simo
>Salanne" has offered what appears to be a replication of the subject survey.
>While I have a helluva time trying to read it on my machine -- the tabs don't
>translate -- it appears to be essentially the same grading system, just
>different reviewers and quantities thereof, and of course, different rankings
>of fewer kites.

It has long lines, try to read it with software not wrapping the lines,
but scrolling sideways.

Quote:
>Of course, there is absolutely no documentation of whether in fact these are
>Santa Simo's ratings or those of a hand-picked group of elves, or a bunch of
>purely fictional numbers.
>My reaction is, OK, some kites that were highly ranked in last year's KL
>survey were ranked lower in Santa's and vice versa.  I expect that if I could
>read the ***y thing I would find that the **general shape** of the rankings
>in Santa's survey might well be similar to those in KL's.  A real turkey
>isn't likely to turn into a swan, or the reverse.
>Now, Santa, tell us your methodology.

Well, it was mainly a joke. Wery interesting is that Brooks found

"THAT THE ** GENERAL SHAPE** OF THE RANKING IN SANTA'S SURVEY
MIGHT WELL BE SIMILAR TO THOSE IN KL'S."

... because all the numbers ('evaluations') were created by a
random number generator in a spreadsheet program. That's why
I could assure there were absolutely no connections between
reviewers and manufacturers. Actually the 'reviewers' have
no idea about kites either:-)

It seems that KL's survey type process and random number generation
process are alike (!), at least they will create highly similar looking
results. Kite flyers would argree and disagree with both of them.

To create the spreadsheet took half an hour, now a 'new' survey
can be made in seconds. I can made the spreadsheet available on
ftp.hawaii.ftp if somebody wants to make 'surveys' of his own:-)

Smooth Winds

 
 
 

KITELINES Sport Kite Survey Is No More!

Post by Colin Douthwai » Wed, 08 Sep 1993 05:34:04

Quote:


>>Santa Claus Kite Laboratory of Finland, posting over the pen name "Simo
>>Salanne" has offered what appears to be a replication of the subject survey.
>>While I have a helluva time trying to read it on my machine -- the tabs

SS> It has long lines, try to read it with software not wrapping the lines,
SS> but scrolling sideways.

SS> Well, it was mainly a joke.

The table is over 163 columns. Some fancy footwork on my Word
Processor has produced 2 pages of 80 columns each. If you print
these out on paper you can put the pages side by side and read the
whole table :-)

                  SCL Laboratory Survey  ( 6 Sep 1993  ?? )
====================================================================

Total                                 Evaluators Asmbly Launch Landing Speed

+----+---------------------------------------+--+------+------+-------+------

 84.1 Skynasaur Inc. Tracer                   16    4.5    4.3    4.9    4.5

 79.5 Spectra Sport Kites Edge                17    3.8    4.9    3.9    3.8

 78.0 Hyperkites Elite Freestyle               4    3.8    4.7    3.0    4.8

 77.6 Wind Walker/Gayla Wasp A/C              16    4.9    4.3    3.5    2.0

 77.2 Top Of The Line North Shore Radical VIP 11    4.8    2.6    3.5    3.7

 75.7 Flexifoil Scorpion                      19    3.4    3.5    4.3    4.5

 75.3 Overflots Black & Stripes               12    4.4    3.5    4.6    4.0

 73.8 High Flyers Phantom Shadow              14    3.7    4.0    2.2    4.8

 73.0 Sky Delight Kites Neptune               10    3.5    3.2    2.3    2.7

 72.5 Jordan Air Pro                          19    2.2    2.3    3.6    3.2

 72.2 R-Kites Exocet                           6    2.3    4.6    3.1    4.5

 72.1 Julian Wolfe Patrick Big Brother        11    2.8    2.5    4.4    2.8

 71.9 Chigaco Fire Kite Co. Magnum Opus       13    4.6    3.4    4.9    4.1

 71.7 Cerf-Volants Azur Spyro-Jet Freestyle    5    2.5    3.5    3.3    4.8

 71.5 Action Kites Fire Dart                  18    4.3    3.5    3.6    3.0

 71.3 Highly Strung Kites Check-mate          14    2.6    3.3    3.6    4.5

 70.6 One Of Jerry's Kites Peregrine          16    4.0    3.9    3.9    2.0

 70.2 Banshee Kite Co. Scimitar                7    2.3    3.5    4.7    3.3

 69.8 Top Of The Line Hawaiian Team           11    3.6    4.0    2.7    3.5

 69.1 Top Of The Line North Shore Kona         6    3.9    4.1    4.5    3.8

 69.0 Ram Jet Kites Turbo Jet                 16    2.4    4.8    2.7    2.7

 68.8 One Of Jerry's Kites Peregrine UL       18    3.6    3.9    3.2    4.6

 68.5 The Kite Store LiteFlite                14    2.3    4.7    3.4    3.4

 68.2 Top Of The Line North Shore Radical     11    3.2    4.4    2.7    3.4

 68.2 Skyward Kites NBK                        4    3.3    2.1    4.9    4.6

 67.7 Frontier Kites Team Storm                8    3.0    3.3    2.0    2.6

 67.4 High Fly Kite Co. Team High Fly Pro Am  16    3.4    3.3    4.4    2.6

 67.3 Top Of The Line Spin-Off UL             10    2.0    3.7    3.7    2.4

 66.2 Chigaco Fire Kite Co. Bee                8    3.8    2.8    2.3    2.6

 66.1 Stinger Kite Co. Stinger 1000            9    4.5    2.8    2.1    2.2

 66.0 Spectra Sport Kites Edge UL             12    2.6    2.9    4.0    2.8

 65.3 Spectra Sport Slingshot                 19    3.7    3.4    4.4    2.3

 64.9 Skyburner Sport Kites Skyburner         15    2.3    2.2    3.8    3.8

 63.4 Top Of The Line Spin-Off                17    3.8    2.7    3.0    2.0

 63.3 Aerialogics Cyborg VIII                 13    4.8    3.4    3.0    3.0

 62.6 Tim Benson High Profile                 17    2.9    4.2    2.1    2.2

 60.6 Wind Walker Waps                        14    4.7    2.3    2.2    3.3

Speed Precis.DurabilPortabiAppeal   ship  Value     (m/s)  Req'd  noise of
pull
-----+------+------+------+------+-------+-----+----------+-----+------+-----
-+
  3.9    4.4    4.4    3.4    3.9    3.2    5.0   3 to  6    3.7    2.6  
3.3
  2.9    3.5    4.3    4.4    4.5    4.9    2.9   3 to 13    4.7    2.9  
3.8
  4.1    4.7    4.4    3.0    4.8    2.7    2.9   3 to 11    2.2    4.5  
3.0
  4.5    4.7    3.7    4.8    3.8    2.8    4.0   4 to  7    3.6    2.9  
2.8
  4.9    3.6    2.8    3.3    3.4    5.0    4.9   3 to  3    3.0    4.2  
2.8
  2.9    3.9    4.0    4.7    4.8    3.6    2.3   4 to 10    3.5    4.7  
3.0
  2.7    3.1    4.4    4.4    4.2    2.0    4.8   3 to  7    4.3    4.0  
4.6
  3.3    3.4    3.3    4.9    4.2    3.2    4.1   3 to  5    2.2    2.6  
4.3
  2.3    4.9    4.3    3.7    3.9    4.6    3.9   2 to  7    3.1    2.1  
2.6
  4.5    4.0    3.5    3.1    3.4    4.9    4.3   4 to  4    2.6    4.7  
3.8
  2.4    4.2    4.3    4.5    3.3    4.1    2.2   4 to  6    2.7    3.6  
2.2
  4.7    2.3    3.7    4.8    3.7    3.4    4.7   4 to  9    4.3    2.9  
5.0
  3.9    2.3    4.4    2.4    2.3    4.4    3.1   2 to  7    2.2    4.1  
4.0
  3.9    2.0    4.6    2.1    4.3    5.0    2.9   2 to  3    4.9    2.1  
4.1
  2.8    4.3    4.5    4.6    3.5    2.7    2.8   4 to  9    2.7    2.2  
3.4
  3.4    2.4    4.3    3.1    3.7    3.2    4.9   2 to 11    4.0    4.9  
5.0
  4.7    3.3    4.0    3.3    3.0    2.4    4.4   3 to  9    4.1    2.8  
2.1
  2.3    2.2    4.9    4.5    2.8    4.1    3.9   4 to  4    3.9    4.1  
4.4
  5.0    4.9    2.6    4.5    2.2    3.1    2.6   2 to  9    4.2    4.7  
3.4
  3.4    2.3    2.5    2.4    3.0    3.8    4.7   2 to  8    2.3    3.5  
4.0
  2.8    2.7    4.8    4.7    2.0    4.4    3.6   2 to  8    3.8    2.1  
4.8
  2.6    4.4    4.7    2.0    3.6    2.5    2.4   2 to  8    3.1    4.5  
2.6
  4.5    3.1    4.9    3.3    2.0    3.5    2.3   3 to  4    2.1    2.8  
2.4
  3.2    3.0    4.7    4.3    4.5    2.2    2.2   4 to 10    2.3    3.5  
2.8
  2.7    3.2    3.3    2.1    3.2    3.1    5.0   4 to 10    2.3    4.0  
4.9
  4.9    3.5    2.2    2.7    4.9    3.3    4.3   2 to 11    2.5    4.1  
3.2
  4.9    2.3    3.0    2.9    2.4    4.4    3.5   4 to 12    3.1    3.6  
4.6
  4.3    2.7    3.1    4.7    4.6    3.7    2.2   2 to 11    2.6    2.1  
4.9
  4.7    4.3    2.9    2.0    2.5    4.5    3.5   3 to  7    2.9    3.5  
4.9
  2.0    4.1    3.1    4.4    3.8    4.5    2.8   3 to  8    3.7    2.9  
3.1
  4.3    3.5    3.7    2.9    3.0    3.6    2.8   2 to  6    4.4    3.6  
4.1
  4.2    2.9    2.6    3.7    2.9    3.2    3.0   4 to 10    3.4    4.7  
2.7
  2.5    3.1    2.1    3.1    4.3    4.5    3.7   4 to 11    4.6    2.8  
3.4
  2.2    4.0    2.3    2.8    4.0    2.9    4.9   3 to 13    4.4    2.9  
4.8
  2.7    2.3    2.4    3.2    2.8    4.2    3.5   4 to 13    3.7    2.0  
2.7
  3.4    2.1    3.7    4.0    2.9    3.7    3.2   3 to  9    4.9    4.4  
4.3
  3.5    2.9    4.1    2.2    3.6    2.2    2.5   4 to 13    4.7    3.0  
4.2

====================================================================

Quote:

> If you want to get a new kite in the survey, please send us a
> sample and it will be included in the next survey.  
> Santa Claus Kite Laboratory
> 99999 Korvatunturi
> Finland

Sounds a great way to get free kites for trial !!

Do we have to send them by Reindeer FreePost and drop them down SCK
Laboratory's chimney ?  :-) :-)

Joking aside, I am puzzled by the Table posted by Simo Salanne.
I thought the rec.kites Stunter Survey was the FAQ maintained by
Paul Kalowski.

Are there _two_ rec.kites Stunter Surveys ??

Colin Douthwaite
New Zealand
7 Sep 1993