## You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!

### You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!

"You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!"

This is the message that was drummed in to us from all sides when we began
team
flying all those years ago.....oooh it must be as long ago as January 1994.
Every person
that we met, with very few exceptions, told us that we could have fun with
a 3 person team,
but that to win anything we really needed at least 4 people.  Despite the
success that we started to
have, we still heard this so often that we have actually tried to go 4
twice.  Once in 1995 and
once in 1996.  Each time we have found that due to work and family
pressures our 4th person
has not been able to commit the time that we do and we have therefore ended
up back as 3.

I am therefore finding it a little frustrating that whilst reading through
the assorted messages that
were posted whilst I was at World Cup, everybody seems to be saying people
are being penalised
for having larger teams and I even saw somebody write 'the ideal number for
a team is 3'.  If this
is the case I find it hard to understand why so many people make the effort
to put together large
teams and go through the struggle of keeping them together.  The fact is
that every team size has
actually think that a
perfect size has yet been found.

A number of people have mentioned how much easier flying as 3 is.  Lets
just clarify a few things
here shall we....

Flying compulsories with 3 could be said to be a little easier as you have
more room in the
sky and less kites to match on spacing and speed.  This however is not
always the case as some
moves have such a weird symmetry (or lack of) with 3, that they are harder
to fly.

The precision routine comes next and this again has been said to be easier
due to less kites to match
on spacing and speed.  Unfortunately for us, this is not all that
constitutes a routine.  A routine has to
not only be precise, but has to be interesting, full of variation in
shapes, speeds, types of moves and
most of all has to keep peoples attention.  One person that I read actually
mentioned that the only
shapes that you can do with 3 are a straight line and a triangle.  Luckily
for us we have found slightly
more to do with our kites than this, but he has helped me make my point.
The more kites that you put
in the air, the easier it is to introduce variation of moves and shapes.
All this basically means is that
the smaller your team, the more imagination you need!!

Finally comes the ballet!!  The name itself says a lot - BALLET!!  To take
a piece of music and in our
case, using our kites; enhance and interpret this piece of music to the
observing public.  We have
heard that the current rules mention nothing about technical difficulty and
this is true.  We may all
feel that putting more difficult moves in our routines may keep peoples
attention and score more
points, and I would agree, but ONLY if these moves actually go with the
music!!!!  This is the whole
point and seems to be what causes people the most problems.
As for the point that the more people you have the harder it is to
syncronise everyone to the music, I
would disagree.  If you fly a true ballet then the timing of your turns is
dictated by the beats and flow
of the music.  In our team and a few others that I know, each pilot is
listening to the music and taking
their turning cue from it.  We have no calls, as the timing of these is
hard to do, and more importantly
since they are unneccessary when the music has natural prompts in it.  If
each flyer is turning on
their particular part of the music then each pilot has no more to do than
any other, no matter what the
team size.  In any size team using this system, each pilot has to do 2
things:  Be in the correct position
in the sky at the right time;  Turn on the correct part of the music!   As
long as each person does this
you can fly in any size of team with about the same amount of difficulty!!

I would apologise for going on for so long, but after the reams of comments
that I read through when I got
back this week, which all seemed to be very misinformed,  I feel that the
length of this note is nothing!

As it happens I actually quite like to fly in much larger team as it is a
lot of fun. But harder or easier ......?

Regards,

Mark Lummas (Team Sky Dance)

### You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!

Quote:

>"You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!"

<snip>

Quote:
>As it happens I actually quite like to fly in much larger team as it is a
>lot of fun. But harder or easier ......?

I couldn't agree more.  The logistical problems do get a bit scary though.
The Decs now have 8 fliers to call on.

Cynics may say we don't do ballet or precision work in our presentations.
We do have a lot of fun though.

Thanks for your response Mark.  It does provide a useful perspective
in the context of this thread.

Regards to all.

Felix

--
Felix Mottram / The Decorators / Waddington Galleries (Views expressed are mine, not those of the company) / http://www.fmottram.demon.co.uk/
EXWX3XMXE

### You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!

Those of us who saw you fly with" Dont Panic" and "BumperKites" at the Wash.St
Sport Kite Championships can attest to cool it was to see 9 NorthShores in the
air,and in formation! How about a NINE person team ,MARK!! (by the way,we made
that  red,green,black,and white Tie-dyed N.S.radical,Jim and Monica will have
it after WildWood)

Bettie &
Jeff,
Go Dye A
Kite!>"You'll "

### You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!

Quote:
> "You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!"

>A number of people have mentioned how much easier flying as 3 is.  Lets
>just clarify a few things
>here shall we....
>Flying compulsories with 3 could be said to be a little easier as you have
>more room in the
>sky and less kites to match on spacing and speed.  This however is not
>always the case as some
>moves have such a weird symmetry (or lack of) with 3, that they are harder
>to fly.
>The precision routine comes next and this again has been said to be easier
>due to less kites to match
>on spacing and speed.  Unfortunately for us, this is not all that
>constitutes a routine.  A routine has to
>not only be precise, but has to be interesting, full of variation in
>shapes, speeds, types of moves and
>most of all has to keep peoples attention.  One person that I read
actually
>mentioned that the only
>shapes that you can do with 3 are a straight line and a triangle.  Luckily
>for us we have found slightly
>more to do with our kites than this, but he has helped me make my point.
>The more kites that you put
>in the air, the easier it is to introduce variation of moves and shapes.
>All this basically means is that
>the smaller your team, the more imagination you need!!

Well said Mark, I don't think all postings were claiming that it was easier
with 3 and that you have an advantage but then the whole thread got a bit
dull and I didn't read them all.

I think the team flyers out there all know the difficulties regardless of
the numbers, from my point of view the only thing better about flying with
3 is its less scary... all those kites, all those lines... and I only fly
in a four (the optimum number of course (?).

While I'm here, whats the news on Airkraft ? Are they no more ?

--
Patrick Tod
Team Harlequin

### You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!

Quote:

>Mark Lummas (Team Sky Dance)

Thankyou for your input here.  Nothing I'm saying in this thread is with the
intention of detracting from the achievement of Skydance or in any way to
deny that the performances I've watched have been anything short of excellent.
I'm merely looking at the rules of the game and trying to determine whether
they chould be changed in future on the (disputed) grounds that it is more
difficult to perform any given manoever perfectly with 6 kites than it is
to reach perfection with 3.

Andrew
--
Have you got your rec.kites Tshirt yet?  http://www.kfs.org/kites/shirt
For sale:  Prototype Lynn N-Gen 3.6m^2.  Excellent price.  Mail for details.
I offer free advice by email on all aspects of traction kiteing.  Feel
free to drop me a line...

### You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!

Quote:
> "You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!"

At least with three the telephone bills are smaller and organising team
time and time off must be much easier.

The wow factor can be maximised with larger teams but but I would imagine
smaller teams might be able to practice more efficiently.

Just a thought.

Mark Bretherton
Crosslines

### You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!

Quote:

> >Mark Lummas (Team Sky Dance)

> Thankyou for your input here.  Nothing I'm saying in this thread is with
the
> intention of detracting from the achievement of Skydance or in any way to
> deny that the performances I've watched have been anything short of
excellent.
> I'm merely looking at the rules of the game and trying to determine
whether
> they chould be changed in future on the (disputed) grounds that it is
more
> difficult to perform any given manoever perfectly with 6 kites than it is
> to reach perfection with 3.

OK.  But if we start to take into account the number of kites, then should
we also take into account the type of kite used ?  Undoubtedly it is easier
to perform certain manoeuvres with certain kites - e.g. should we take into
account that a 540 flat spin is a lot easier on a Flexifoil Matrix than on
an NSR ? ).

I am not disagreeing that team size is something to be discussed, I am
suggesting that it also opens the door to other factors as well.

Do not forget that there is a distinction between ballet and precision
freestyle. In the latter diffficulty is *definitely* a scoring element. The
problem is that in a competition like WC, precision is only 30% of the
score (we use 50% in the UK, and I believe most other STACK competitions
use the same), and precision freestyle is only a portion of that 30% (can't
remember the exact proportion). If we changed this weighting it would
reward difficult moves more than at present.

Steve.

### You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:08:09 GMT, "Mark Lummas"

Quote:

>"You'll never get anywhere as a '3 Person Team'!!!!!!!"

snip
>Regards,

>Mark Lummas (Team Sky Dance)

Hear Hear !!
I'm Glad you have written this Mark, you may have seen that in one of
the earlier postings  on Rec.kites I mention that the last two years
were the first time a 3 person team won WC.
So size isn't important. !!
Edit you message and post as a learning tool for new teams, you
explain well what is needed to fly well in competitions.
Good to have you back online...
Simon ...(part of team Vertigo (3 Person team) Airkraft All Stars (5
person team (Rok) ex- Vertigo and Free Spirit Pairs, Indi Dual and
Quad flyer, UK head judge  for the last 5 years, (as long as Airkraft
have been a team )....

Sport kiting needs a common rule book before World Cup 9.
Lets do something positive and we need to start know.