Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by Dave Dougla » Sun, 05 Dec 1999 04:00:00


I went to fly yesterday at the local kite field I saw signs posted around
the perimeter announcing that there's going to be a city council meeting
(December 7th I think) to consider turning our designated (and constructed
for) kite flying field into a dog field!! The field I'm describing is in
Shoreline Park in  Mountain View, CA. I'm going out there today to meet
and fly with Prism's Mark Reed (alrighty) compliments of Dan Whitney of
Gone With The Wind Kites and I'll get the when and where specifics of the
meeting and post it again here to try to get my fellow kite flying buds to
show up and give 'em hell at the meeting. Get this, currently no dogs are
allowed anywhere in the huge park and there are 100s of acres of
undeveloped fields that could be turned into a dog turd pen. Go figure.

Dave

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by Arnold B. Christense » Mon, 06 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Why should the citizens have to pay for a dog park? Who will be
responsible when someone gets bitten? I bet you have a leash law don't
you. Why are certain people trying to bypass the leash law? Seems like
the fine people of Newport, RI went thru the same sort of a deal except
it did not affect any kite flying area.

Misguided bunch of fools that cannot take care of their dogs. Owning a
thing that craps and bites is optional. A big thing that supposedly
needs room to run and your apartment isn't big enough, is your fault.
Move out of the city or get rid of it.

Chris the Bigfoot

Quote:

> I went to fly yesterday at the local kite field I saw signs posted around
> the perimeter announcing that there's going to be a city council meeting
> (December 7th I think) to consider turning our designated (and constructed
> for) kite flying field into a dog field!! The field I'm describing is in
> Shoreline Park in  Mountain View, CA. I'm going out there today to meet
> and fly with Prism's Mark Reed (alrighty) compliments of Dan Whitney of
> Gone With The Wind Kites and I'll get the when and where specifics of the
> meeting and post it again here to try to get my fellow kite flying buds to
> show up and give 'em hell at the meeting. Get this, currently no dogs are
> allowed anywhere in the huge park and there are 100s of acres of
> undeveloped fields that could be turned into a dog turd pen. Go figure.

> Dave


 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by SportKit » Tue, 07 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Quote:
>Subject: Re: Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

>Date: Sun, 05 December 1999 09:40 PM EST
>Why should the citizens have to pay for a dog park? Who will be
>responsible when someone gets bitten? I bet you have a leash law don't
>you. Why are certain people trying to bypass the leash law? Seems like
>the fine people of Newport, RI went thru the same sort of a deal except
>it did not affect any kite flying area.

>Misguided bunch of fools that cannot take care of their dogs. Owning a
>thing that craps and bites is optional. A big thing that supposedly
>needs room to run and your apartment isn't big enough, is your fault.
>Move out of the city or get rid of it.

>Chris the Bigfoot

Hi Chris,

I give you permission to remove your foot from your mouth now. I'm sure it
won't be difficult since clearly your feet are so small.

I have seen beautiful beaches ruined from people ignoring leash & poop pick up
laws. I've stepped in it, seen kites ruined, picnics disrupted and all becuz of
rude people thinking their pets are above it all.

Here in Eugene, we have Dog Parks, and it works beautifully. They are meeting
places for dog owners and their pets. A social club if you will. I've met folks
there who have actually met and become an "item". The dogs have a great time
socializing as well. I for one have a small dog who is very protective of me,
and is pretty anti-social. After one afternoon with a pleasant Rottie or Mutt
she becomes much less aggressive and doesn't seem to be as anxious - read
barking & snapping. She's a good baby, just doesn't have much opportunity to
play date with other dogs. The park gives me the opportunity to let her get her
ya-yas out and calm down a bit. (Thanks for the reminder, she needs a serious
playdate...gonna take her tomorrow)

Citizens own dogs. They support the many dog parks here. And it works. The
runners, joggers, bikers, skaters and other folks enjoying the various other
park trails and meadows don't have the problems associated with exercising our
pets.

The issue here isn't about whether there should be a dog park, cuz trust me it
will happen. It's a case of what the community feels will serve the greater
good. Seems in this case dogs and their owners may outnumber kiters. Sad but
true. A dog park will enjoy users at all hours of the day (we have folks using
ours from dawn well past dusk), 7 days a week whereas kiters may only use the
area at infrequent times.

Perhaps it would be wise for those kiters who wish to protect their flying
field to work with the parks association to try to designate an alternate
location nearer to obstacles that would inhibit kiteflying but not present any
problems to a dog park. I am not familiar with the area in question but I would
guess that it is adjacent to a parking lot. *sigh*

I'm extremely sympathetic to the plight of kite flyers having a place they can
safely and regularly use, but don't forget alot of kiters own dogs too.

Ellen

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by Arthur Cros » Tue, 07 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Ellen and Chris - Here's my two cents on a 'Doggie Park' - Firstly, I
don't own a dog, never have - but, I Live in an apartment and I like
'most' dogs unless they bark incessantly (like the one downstairs) or
are too aggressive (like the one next door). Both of these traits I
attribute to the owners lack of training. A designated area for dogs to
run, etc. doesn't seem like a bad idea, but certainly doesn't have to be
in a wide open 'good wind' area. In order to get to a 'good' kite flying
area, most of us have to travel a half an hour or more, whereas most dog
owners can usually find their pets a place to run and 'do their thing'
within walking distance - the local athletic field in off hours or
whatever. I'm also a strong supporter of pooper scooper laws in any
public area whether it be a designated 'dog park' or not. If anyone has
either stepped in or had their child 'roll in' a dog deposit must agree
with me. We must have over fifty  parks of one sort or another within a
half an hour of where I live in NJ, none of which is suitable for kite
flying. Also, kitefliers are in the minority here. Think about it. Flame
away! <G>
Gotta fly!
Art
 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by Arnold B. Christense » Tue, 07 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Obviously you haven't seen my feet dearie.

As I read the post the place was set up for kite flying, now they want
to take it away. Dog people can meet anywhere, don't need designated
areas to meet. Designated areas would mean a fence to me since those
that want these areas seem to feel their animals should be allowed to
run free. Without a fence there is liability to the city. Kite site
requires no fence, just don't plant trees every 50 feet.

I object when those with the dogs would run roughshood over those who
kite. I am more than sure there are more dog owners than kite flyers who
are behind the stated purpose of removing the area from the kiters. And,
they probably like that the area is next to a parking lot too, if such
is the case.

BTW, I have had dogs too and kept them in my property and never had the
idea I had to have the citizens pay for me to go so my dog could run
free.

Knew I would***off someone with my view. So be it. The place sounds
like NY City to me.

Chris the Bigfoot

Quote:

> Hi Chris,

> I give you permission to remove your foot from your mouth now. I'm sure it
> won't be difficult since clearly your feet are so small.

> I have seen beautiful beaches ruined from people ignoring leash & poop pick up
> laws. I've stepped in it, seen kites ruined, picnics disrupted and all becuz of
> rude people thinking their pets are above it all.

> Here in Eugene, we have Dog Parks, and it works beautifully. They are meeting
> places for dog owners and their pets. A social club if you will. I've met folks
> there who have actually met and become an "item". The dogs have a great time
> socializing as well. I for one have a small dog who is very protective of me,
> and is pretty anti-social. After one afternoon with a pleasant Rottie or Mutt
> she becomes much less aggressive and doesn't seem to be as anxious - read
> barking & snapping. She's a good baby, just doesn't have much opportunity to
> play date with other dogs. The park gives me the opportunity to let her get her
> ya-yas out and calm down a bit. (Thanks for the reminder, she needs a serious
> playdate...gonna take her tomorrow)

> Citizens own dogs. They support the many dog parks here. And it works. The
> runners, joggers, bikers, skaters and other folks enjoying the various other
> park trails and meadows don't have the problems associated with exercising our
> pets.

> The issue here isn't about whether there should be a dog park, cuz trust me it
> will happen. It's a case of what the community feels will serve the greater
> good. Seems in this case dogs and their owners may outnumber kiters. Sad but
> true. A dog park will enjoy users at all hours of the day (we have folks using
> ours from dawn well past dusk), 7 days a week whereas kiters may only use the
> area at infrequent times.

> Perhaps it would be wise for those kiters who wish to protect their flying
> field to work with the parks association to try to designate an alternate
> location nearer to obstacles that would inhibit kiteflying but not present any
> problems to a dog park. I am not familiar with the area in question but I would
> guess that it is adjacent to a parking lot. *sigh*

> I'm extremely sympathetic to the plight of kite flyers having a place they can
> safely and regularly use, but don't forget alot of kiters own dogs too.

> Ellen

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by SportKit » Wed, 08 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Quote:
>Subject: Re: Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

>Date: Mon, 06 December 1999 06:15 PM EST
>Obviously you haven't seen my feet dearie.

Ah, I had a feeling that remark would go over your head. Think contrasts,
dearie.

Quote:
>Designated areas would mean a fence to me since those
>that want these areas seem to feel their animals should be allowed to
>run free.

Doh. Just so there's no question where I am coming from let me be very clear.
Owning dogs, whether it be a family member or part of a more formal activity,
represents hundreds of millions of dollars in revenues each year. What do you
imagine the taxes are on that? How many businesses are set up to serve dogs?
They pay taxes. They create jobs. My cousin is a sled dog racer and trust me,
he spends a great deal of money caring for his pack. Be realisitic...dogs
outnumber kiters in proportions too vast to even consider.

Quote:
>Kite site
>requires no fence, just don't plant trees every 50 feet.

I don't know of one municipality that has designated a kite specific area. Do
you? Kite flying areas are pretty much "claimed" not just handed over.

Quote:
>I object when those with the dogs would run roughshood over those who
>kite.

Why? What makes YOU so special as a kiter? Should the "citizens" pay for you to
have public land maintained, kept dog and intruder free, just cuz you say so?
What do you figure the costs would be to financially support, say 4 acres of
open land to allow an activity that maybe 10 or 15 people might use on an
infrequent basis?

I am all for having plenty of kite fields available to play at. But it's your
sort of attitude that gives kiters a bad name. I'm really getting tired of this
"we're so special" even tho we are outnumbered by bocce ball players 2 to 1.
Come on....quit whining about it, accept that you are in the minority and do
something about it if you're so bummed out about how public land is used.

Offer to teach a kite making/flying workshop at the local parks and rec
department. Work with the schools to promote various kite projects. Get with
your City's Chamber and Convention Bureaus and suggest putting on a kite
festival at your local beach or field. Do fund raisers for local charities
featuring kite comps like highest flying, most creative, biggest and littlest
kite. Show kiting to be a viable activity that deserves the same consideration
as other outdoor activities. But don't just show up one day at your local field
and *** about the fact that it's gone to the dogs.

Heck, our city knows there has been a kite festival for 13 years here at our
local park and this year they forgot to mow the grass & book the vendors. Can't
blame anyone but myself for not checking up on it and trusting the powers that
be would. THAT will never happen again.

FYI....if the Shoreline field is the one I think it is, it also serves as
overflow for the adjacent Shoreline Amphitheatre. There are some fairly high
light poles scattered about if it's the one I'm thinking of. If it were ME, I
would go to the folks at Shoreline and ask them if they want a dog park located
so closely to their concert grounds. It could get rather "smelly" when there is
a onshore wind. Also, it might encourage people to bring dogs to the concerts
with the idea that they could leave them in the car and go take them to the
park periodically. This should be absolutely forbidden. So again, if it were
me, I would get the big bucks Shoreline guys who cater to deadheads and rockers
to back me up at the meeting saying it would encourage pet abuse if they put a
park there. However, this may be a different location than the one I'm thinking
of and this tactic might not work. Just an idea.

Ellen

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by James Hods » Wed, 08 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Hi Ellen

I've no objection to dogs using MY field as long as they don't use it to
***on. Then again, one can hardly blame the dog for that.

No, my objection to dogs - and it's almost certainly the same as other
kiters' objections, I'd guess - is that far too many of them seem to be out
of control too much of the time. Occasionally, I do see a well behaved
hound that doesn't dart around all over the place and does come to heel
when ordered. Not too surprisingly, perhaps, these dogs are the ones that
belong to the owners that do actually pick up any mess their dog might
cause.

Unfortunately, just one or two hounds from hell can cause havock on the
field and strain relations between the kiters and the doggers. Recently, I
was adjusting the bridle on one of my kites when a couple of sheep dogs ran
over my lines. I gave the owner an evil stare. When they did the very same
thing a minute or so later I shouted at the owner who was a couple of
hundred yards away, "Oh, for goodness sake control your dogs." She shouted
back, "You take up more space than they do.", ignoring the fact that the
dogs had run several hundred feet towards me. A bit more evil staring
followed. Eventually the dogs followed the woman into another field but at
no time were they put on a lead. There were no other kites in the air at
the time so the dogs certainly weren't "spooked", at least not by any of
the kiters. Luckily, there were no horses around on that day; occasionally
they cross the field on the way to the beach.

I'd actually had a pleasant chat with the sheep dogs' owner a couple of
days earlier and mentioned, in passing. the cost of the kites I, and
others, fly. In one ear and out of the other. I also found out during our
little chat that her dogs weren't insured. Ah... that feeling of m***
superiority.

IMO, there's no need for separate areas for kites and dogs as long as both
kiters and doggers act with a bit of common courtesy. We shouldn't dive
bomb the dogs (although I feel like doing so at times) or buzz people who
are walking around, and doggers should train their pets properly and clear
up any mess they make. Shouting "Come here Rover." does not a trained dog
make.

I do my best to bin any bits of carbon, stubbed out fag ends, line etc
before I go home. I also pick up any other bits of other people's rubbish I
come across in case kiters are blamed for causing the mess. All I ask is
that doggers do the same.

Next time I have to untension my wings and find that the nocks and cords
are covered in ***I shall get VERY angry... and you wouldn't like me when
I'm angry. :-)

Regards
James

PS I do like dogs, especially well trained ones.
"Watch the kite not where you're going!"
(RB 29/8/98)

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by Stanley Accringt » Wed, 08 Dec 1999 04:00:00


Quote:
>As I read the post the place was set up for kite flying, now they want
>to take it away. Dog people can meet anywhere, don't need designated
>areas to meet.

The true situation is the exact opposite of the way you portray it. Kite flying
is allowed without restriction everywhere in Mtn View.  Dogs are restricted
to being on a leash.   If you don't want to share that bit of public land with
dog owners, why not move 100 yards further down the road in any direction, and
use any of the rest of the acres and acres of Shoreline Park or Crittenden
next to it?  There is no lack of access to windy areas on the South Bay.
Shoreline Park isn't even all that great - access hours are poor, and it's
impossible to get near it when the amphitheater has any kind of event.

Mtn View has a leash law -- all dogs in public areas must be on leashes at
all times.  The purpose of dog parks is to give the creatures the chance to
run a bit off leash, but in an enclosed area.  Palo Alto has a dog park,
Sunnyvale has one, and even Los Altos is considering one.

Exaggerating about the effects of a cause that you favor doesn't build
support.  It usually has the opposite effect.  In this case, kite weenies are
being asked to make a small accommodation for dog owners.  You can do it
gracefully, and build up a stock of goodwill for the future.  Or you can
complain bitterly, avoid seeing the needs of the other party, and eventually
come out on the losing end of an argument.  Choose wisely.
--
TWO NEUTRONS WENT INTO A BAR . "HEY BARMAN" SAYS ONE OF THEM, "WHAT'S THE
PRICE OF YOUR BEER ?" "FOR YOU, THERE'S NO CHARGE" SAYS THE BARMAN. BA-DING!


 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by ElpM » Wed, 08 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Fellow Kiters,

For those who are not familiar with Shoreline Kite Flying Field, it's the home
of the Mountain View "Bastos" Buggy Boys. (MVBBB). The Field has been a
designated kite flying area for years, as long as I can remember. Many great
flyers, such as Merl Julian, Jose Marty, Alex Sanchez, Mark Lee to name a few,
all exceptional kite flyers now, learned their first flight at this field. We
are very fortunate to have a field actually marked "Kite Flying Field" at the
entrance. This is ou

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by Dave Dougla » Wed, 08 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Here's my take on the Shoreline dog park thing: The existing area IS a
"designated" kite flying area and it was built for the kiters that were
flying over by the lake in a picnicing area. The park's entrance booth has
a large NO DOGS!! sign in the window as you drive by. It's the largest
printed notice in the window and there's a reason for that. There's a lot
of wildlife out there (including the burrowing owl-the most endangered
bird in the valley) and there's a colony not 15 yards from the kiting area
coexisting with the kiters no problem. I've counted 10 ground squirrels on
the kite field at one time, had a jackrabbit briefly get tangled in my
lines, counted as many as 60 Canadian geese on the kiting field, seen a
ringneck pheasant within 10 yards of the kiting area 2 different times,
and the last 3 times I've been out there seen a golden eagle (one time
eating a ground squirrel within 20 yards of the kiting area. What makes
the kiting area so special out there is it's grass-yard type grass. If I
were a single line flyer I guess it wouldn't matter too much where I flew
but I'm a stunt flyer and like flying over grass. I might be wrong but
Ithink that was the whole point of coming up with this spot for the kiters
because the grass around the lake is very limited with lots of trees.
There's another property in the park being considered for the dog folks
and my tendency is to for them to use that. I'm not sure exactly where it
is but I'll bet that it won't be a threat (safety, turds, etc.) to as many
folks as it would be at the kiting field. The parking lot for the kite
field is also the only parking in that whole end of the park for bikers,
hikers, joggers, and rollerbladers to park. The path goes right by there.
So the way I see it, the dog park will impact many more folks (and
critters) than just us kiters by overwhelming the parking lot and having
the inevitable consequences of some inconsiderate dog owners and their
dogs. I'm not making this stuff up. There's Ocean Beach up in San
Francisco that has very prominent "DOGS MUST BE ON LEASH" signs about
every 30 yards all along the beach parking lots and on a typical weekend
day there are large populations of dogs not on leashes (I'd Say 5:1
unleashed to leashed) and plenty of dog shit to go around. Anyway, We'll
see how it shakes out tonight at the city council meeting. I plan to share
some recent snapshots of burrowing owls and a golden eagle that I've taken
at the kite field recently to possibly reinforce the wildlife angle. It
might be a lost cause but I plan on going down kicking and screaming.

Dave


Quote:

> >Subject: Re: Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

> >Date: Mon, 06 December 1999 06:15 PM EST

> >Obviously you haven't seen my feet dearie.

> Ah, I had a feeling that remark would go over your head. Think contrasts,
> dearie.

> >Designated areas would mean a fence to me since those
> >that want these areas seem to feel their animals should be allowed to
> >run free.

> Doh. Just so there's no question where I am coming from let me be very clear.
> Owning dogs, whether it be a family member or part of a more formal activity,
> represents hundreds of millions of dollars in revenues each year. What do you
> imagine the taxes are on that? How many businesses are set up to serve dogs?
> They pay taxes. They create jobs. My cousin is a sled dog racer and trust me,
> he spends a great deal of money caring for his pack. Be realisitic...dogs
> outnumber kiters in proportions too vast to even consider.

> >Kite site
> >requires no fence, just don't plant trees every 50 feet.

> I don't know of one municipality that has designated a kite specific area. Do
> you? Kite flying areas are pretty much "claimed" not just handed over.

> >I object when those with the dogs would run roughshood over those who
> >kite.

> Why? What makes YOU so special as a kiter? Should the "citizens" pay for
you to
> have public land maintained, kept dog and intruder free, just cuz you say so?
> What do you figure the costs would be to financially support, say 4 acres of
> open land to allow an activity that maybe 10 or 15 people might use on an
> infrequent basis?

> I am all for having plenty of kite fields available to play at. But it's your
> sort of attitude that gives kiters a bad name. I'm really getting tired
of this
> "we're so special" even tho we are outnumbered by bocce ball players 2 to 1.
> Come on....quit whining about it, accept that you are in the minority and do
> something about it if you're so bummed out about how public land is used.

> Offer to teach a kite making/flying workshop at the local parks and rec
> department. Work with the schools to promote various kite projects. Get with
> your City's Chamber and Convention Bureaus and suggest putting on a kite
> festival at your local beach or field. Do fund raisers for local charities
> featuring kite comps like highest flying, most creative, biggest and littlest
> kite. Show kiting to be a viable activity that deserves the same consideration
> as other outdoor activities. But don't just show up one day at your
local field
> and *** about the fact that it's gone to the dogs.

> Heck, our city knows there has been a kite festival for 13 years here at our
> local park and this year they forgot to mow the grass & book the
vendors. Can't
> blame anyone but myself for not checking up on it and trusting the powers that
> be would. THAT will never happen again.

> FYI....if the Shoreline field is the one I think it is, it also serves as
> overflow for the adjacent Shoreline Amphitheatre. There are some fairly high
> light poles scattered about if it's the one I'm thinking of. If it were ME, I
> would go to the folks at Shoreline and ask them if they want a dog park
located
> so closely to their concert grounds. It could get rather "smelly" when
there is
> a onshore wind. Also, it might encourage people to bring dogs to the concerts
> with the idea that they could leave them in the car and go take them to the
> park periodically. This should be absolutely forbidden. So again, if it were
> me, I would get the big bucks Shoreline guys who cater to deadheads and
rockers
> to back me up at the meeting saying it would encourage pet abuse if they put a
> park there. However, this may be a different location than the one I'm
thinking
> of and this tactic might not work. Just an idea.

> Ellen

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by JMK » Wed, 08 Dec 1999 04:00:00

So I guess I may as well weigh in on the dog/kite issue.  Hmmm - this IS a
tough one.

I am a big lover of both.  I love flying kites.  I also have a dog that I
completely dote on.  Max is a great dog and very well behaved, but not to the
point that I can *completely* rely on her not to run off if she sees something
interesting and isn't on a leash - she can be too friendly!  Therefore I have
to have her on a leash when she is not in the yard except in very few, safe,
controlled circumstances.  I take her running for excercise 4 or 5 times per
week (except in winter - sometimes 'run' actually means 'trudge through 8" of
snow on unshoveled sidewalks').  I also take her to 'doggy day care' (really)
once or twice a week so she can play and socialize with other dogs (really,
again - it helps keep dogs from getting isolated, hostile and agressive as
they age).  Would I love a controlled, fenced in area where I could take her
so she could play/run off the leash and see other dogs?  You absolutely bet I
would.

On the other hand.....

I love flying kites, but one of the frustrations I have is finding a good,
convenient place to fly.  West Michigan, I find, is limited in good flying
areas by...of all things...trees.  Many parks and ball fields (public areas)
are often hemmed in, sometimes quite closely, by tree stands.  That is
probably my biggest obstacle to being able to just find places to fly near
wherever I am.  (I keep my kites in my vehicle most of the time, in case I get
a chance to stop in at a good looking spot.  This has never happened - I don't
just drive by any 'good looking spots' too often.)  The best place to fly is
at the Big Lake, but at 40 minutes away it's hard to get there as often as I'd
like.  In fact, this time of year and spring, while a little colder, are
easier for me to fly in because with the leaves off the trees it opens more
places up a bit.  Would I love a nearby, convenient, clear space with clean
wind and 'good ground' (not tall weeds, not paved, etc.) that also has other
flyers to talk to and learn from?  You absolutely bet I would!

In the end, I'd say give it to the kite fliers because the geographic
necessities of a good kite area are 'pickier' than for a good dog area.  Large
cleared areas with no nearby wind obstacles can be tough to find.  A dog area
can be made nearly anywhere - they don't care about tree stands or steep hills
upwind!  Since there is more flexibility in picking a suitable dog place than
in picking a suitable kite place, I'd say...if you have a good kite place they
should let you keep it.  It will be easier to relocate the dogs to THEIR
satisfaction than it will be to relocate you (kiters) to YOUR satisfaction.
(Although I wouldn't want to be the one to try to resolve conflict between the
'doggers' and 'kiters' at this park - heck I could barely resolve the conflict
between the dogger and kiter just within me!)

Good luck in your efforts to keep flying there!

JMK

Quote:

> I went to fly yesterday at the local kite field I saw signs posted around
> the perimeter announcing that there's going to be a city council meeting
> (December 7th I think) to consider turning our designated (and constructed
> for) kite flying field into a dog field!! The field I'm describing is in
> Shoreline Park in  Mountain View, CA. I'm going out there today to meet
> and fly with Prism's Mark Reed (alrighty) compliments of Dan Whitney of
> Gone With The Wind Kites and I'll get the when and where specifics of the
> meeting and post it again here to try to get my fellow kite flying buds to
> show up and give 'em hell at the meeting. Get this, currently no dogs are
> allowed anywhere in the huge park and there are 100s of acres of
> undeveloped fields that could be turned into a dog turd pen. Go figure.

> Dave

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by Dave Dougla » Thu, 09 Dec 1999 04:00:00

JMK and all concerned parties-

How the owl saved the day:

Thanks J for your thoughts and good luck wishes. Quite a few of us kiters
showed up for the city council meeting last night and waited literally
hours after the sceduled time for our turn to speak our piece only to be
reminded repeatedly that they didn't want to waste too much time listening
to us. Dan Whitney and I were the only kiters to get up and speak and the
mayor cut both of us off before we were finished. We had very little
warning about the proposed dog park at the site of our kite field (first
any of us saw the posted signs was 4 days before the meeting). They
clearly didn't even consider the long-time kiter population in their
decision IMO but I'm still glad we showed up in opposition to it from a
user's stand point. Dan talked about the history of the kiters using the
park (8 years) and the agreement that the park would make the kiters a
designated kiting field to get them out of the precious little grassy area
where  picnicers liked to go and how we're pretty much self policing and
share the area  with birders and other recreaters. I'm an amature birder
as well as a kiter so I decided to print out a couple of recently taken
photos of a burrowing owl (the most endangered bird species in the area
from loss of habitat) and a golden eagle both taken from the existing
kiting area and proceeded to tell them about all of the other wildlife
I've seen out there ON, or near the kite field: ringnecked pheasants,
Canadian geese, jackrabbits, squirrels, kestrels, white-tailed kites (the
living kind), redtail hawks, marsh hawks, etc but got cut off before I
could finish the list. I'd talked to the "environmental advocate" officer
for the local Audobon Society earlier in the day to make sure they knew
about the meeting. He did but was unable to appear and asked me to pass
along the Audobon's stance on the subject, the upshoot of which was the
potential environmental impact on the wildlife (particularly the
endangered burrowing owl) and encouraged the development of the dog park
at the alternative location just outside the park which us kiters agreed
was a good compromise. I found out from Audobon that this park is the ONLY
remaining natural wildlife area in the city of Mountain View and I brought
that up too. We saw a map of the proposed dog park at the kite flying area
and it had dog thing located at the far end of the kite field (and cutting
into it) from the parking lot so if they were to have built it there the
dogs would have to have been taken RIGHT BY THE KITE FIELD unprotected by
any fencing! This was really a no-brainer on which proposed site was the
best for all concerned. I'm running all this by you to possibly help
others with potential similar future situations. I truly think that if it
wasn't for those cute little burrowing owls that we would've been screwed.
As we poured over the acummulated document history on the research of
these proposed sites last night I kept wondering where's the part abaut
the kiters? What about us? Nowhere in there was there anything about the
kiters or the use of the kite field other than to refer to the location of
one of the possible sites geographically as "at the area known as the kite
field". They addressed the impact on possible soil pollution, air
pollution, water pollution, sound pollution, impacting wildlife but not
one word obout the impact on kiters, bikers, rollerbladers, joggers,
walkers, birders, sun worshippers, rocket launchers, boomerang throwers,
lunch eaters and book readers that all start their thing right there at
that little parking lot. The whole deal left a slightly sour taste in my
mouth even though we won.

Dave    

Quote:

> So I guess I may as well weigh in on the dog/kite issue.  Hmmm - this IS a
> tough one.

> I am a big lover of both.  I love flying kites.  I also have a dog that I
> completely dote on.  Max is a great dog and very well behaved, but not to the
> point that I can *completely* rely on her not to run off if she sees something
> interesting and isn't on a leash - she can be too friendly!  Therefore I have
> to have her on a leash when she is not in the yard except in very few, safe,
> controlled circumstances.  I take her running for excercise 4 or 5 times per
> week (except in winter - sometimes 'run' actually means 'trudge through 8" of
> snow on unshoveled sidewalks').  I also take her to 'doggy day care' (really)
> once or twice a week so she can play and socialize with other dogs (really,
> again - it helps keep dogs from getting isolated, hostile and agressive as
> they age).  Would I love a controlled, fenced in area where I could take her
> so she could play/run off the leash and see other dogs?  You absolutely bet I
> would.

> On the other hand.....

> I love flying kites, but one of the frustrations I have is finding a good,
> convenient place to fly.  West Michigan, I find, is limited in good flying
> areas by...of all things...trees.  Many parks and ball fields (public areas)
> are often hemmed in, sometimes quite closely, by tree stands.  That is
> probably my biggest obstacle to being able to just find places to fly near
> wherever I am.  (I keep my kites in my vehicle most of the time, in case I get
> a chance to stop in at a good looking spot.  This has never happened - I don't
> just drive by any 'good looking spots' too often.)  The best place to fly is
> at the Big Lake, but at 40 minutes away it's hard to get there as often as I'd
> like.  In fact, this time of year and spring, while a little colder, are
> easier for me to fly in because with the leaves off the trees it opens more
> places up a bit.  Would I love a nearby, convenient, clear space with clean
> wind and 'good ground' (not tall weeds, not paved, etc.) that also has other
> flyers to talk to and learn from?  You absolutely bet I would!

> In the end, I'd say give it to the kite fliers because the geographic
> necessities of a good kite area are 'pickier' than for a good dog area.  Large
> cleared areas with no nearby wind obstacles can be tough to find.  A dog area
> can be made nearly anywhere - they don't care about tree stands or steep hills
> upwind!  Since there is more flexibility in picking a suitable dog place than
> in picking a suitable kite place, I'd say...if you have a good kite place they
> should let you keep it.  It will be easier to relocate the dogs to THEIR
> satisfaction than it will be to relocate you (kiters) to YOUR satisfaction.
> (Although I wouldn't want to be the one to try to resolve conflict between the
> 'doggers' and 'kiters' at this park - heck I could barely resolve the conflict
> between the dogger and kiter just within me!)

> Good luck in your efforts to keep flying there!

> JMK


> > I went to fly yesterday at the local kite field I saw signs posted around
> > the perimeter announcing that there's going to be a city council meeting
> > (December 7th I think) to consider turning our designated (and constructed
> > for) kite flying field into a dog field!! The field I'm describing is in
> > Shoreline Park in  Mountain View, CA. I'm going out there today to meet
> > and fly with Prism's Mark Reed (alrighty) compliments of Dan Whitney of
> > Gone With The Wind Kites and I'll get the when and where specifics of the
> > meeting and post it again here to try to get my fellow kite flying buds to
> > show up and give 'em hell at the meeting. Get this, currently no dogs are
> > allowed anywhere in the huge park and there are 100s of acres of
> > undeveloped fields that could be turned into a dog turd pen. Go figure.

> > Dave

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by Lemons » Thu, 09 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Atleast you won, not everyone gets that lucky. Our field got taken over by
permenant soccer goals and although the cute little kids don't leave poop on
the ground - their mama's sure can raise a stink. Instead, the kids leave
powerade bottles everywhere. When soccer paid $1,000 to not let us have our
event there we quit picking up after them. The land owners called me and let me
know what a mess it was. I told them to make soccer pick it up since they had
exclusive rights. The got a hold of soccer and soccer would pick it up and then
let it get bad again. Now we have our rights back - they got tired of griping
at Soccer all the time. But we still have to go around the permenant goals. So
we won - but not really. We share your pain.

Collette

Quote:
>The whole deal left a slightly sour taste in my
>mouth even though we won.

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by Dave Dougla » Thu, 09 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Collette-

Yessir, we all have to live in each other's shadows (sometimes unfortunately).

Dave


Quote:

> Atleast you won, not everyone gets that lucky. Our field got taken over by
> permenant soccer goals and although the cute little kids don't leave poop on
> the ground - their mama's sure can raise a stink. Instead, the kids leave
> powerade bottles everywhere. When soccer paid $1,000 to not let us have our
> event there we quit picking up after them. The land owners called me and
let me
> know what a mess it was. I told them to make soccer pick it up since they had
> exclusive rights. The got a hold of soccer and soccer would pick it up
and then
> let it get bad again. Now we have our rights back - they got tired of griping
> at Soccer all the time. But we still have to go around the permenant goals. So
> we won - but not really. We share your pain.

> Collette

> >The whole deal left a slightly sour taste in my
> >mouth even though we won.

 
 
 

Shoreline Kite Field Going to Dogs??!!

Post by JMK » Thu, 09 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Well hey - congratulations on keeping your flying area.  I know what you mean about
a sour taste - right answer, wrong reasons (or at least not all the right
reasons!).  Oh well, take the victories where we can get 'em, eh?

JMK

Quote:

> JMK and all concerned parties-

> How the owl saved the day:

> Thanks J for your thoughts and good luck wishes. Quite a few of us kiters
> showed up for the city council meeting last night and waited literally
> hours after the sceduled time for our turn to speak our piece only to be
> reminded repeatedly that they didn't want to waste too much time listening
> to us. Dan Whitney and I were the only kiters to get up and speak and the
> mayor cut both of us off before we were finished. We had very little
> warning about the proposed dog park at the site of our kite field (first
> any of us saw the posted signs was 4 days before the meeting). They
> clearly didn't even consider the long-time kiter population in their
> decision IMO but I'm still glad we showed up in opposition to it from a
> user's stand point. Dan talked about the history of the kiters using the
> park (8 years) and the agreement that the park would make the kiters a
> designated kiting field to get them out of the precious little grassy area
> where  picnicers liked to go and how we're pretty much self policing and
> share the area  with birders and other recreaters. I'm an amature birder
> as well as a kiter so I decided to print out a couple of recently taken
> photos of a burrowing owl (the most endangered bird species in the area
> from loss of habitat) and a golden eagle both taken from the existing
> kiting area and proceeded to tell them about all of the other wildlife
> I've seen out there ON, or near the kite field: ringnecked pheasants,
> Canadian geese, jackrabbits, squirrels, kestrels, white-tailed kites (the
> living kind), redtail hawks, marsh hawks, etc but got cut off before I
> could finish the list. I'd talked to the "environmental advocate" officer
> for the local Audobon Society earlier in the day to make sure they knew
> about the meeting. He did but was unable to appear and asked me to pass
> along the Audobon's stance on the subject, the upshoot of which was the
> potential environmental impact on the wildlife (particularly the
> endangered burrowing owl) and encouraged the development of the dog park
> at the alternative location just outside the park which us kiters agreed
> was a good compromise. I found out from Audobon that this park is the ONLY
> remaining natural wildlife area in the city of Mountain View and I brought
> that up too. We saw a map of the proposed dog park at the kite flying area
> and it had dog thing located at the far end of the kite field (and cutting
> into it) from the parking lot so if they were to have built it there the
> dogs would have to have been taken RIGHT BY THE KITE FIELD unprotected by
> any fencing! This was really a no-brainer on which proposed site was the
> best for all concerned. I'm running all this by you to possibly help
> others with potential similar future situations. I truly think that if it
> wasn't for those cute little burrowing owls that we would've been screwed.
> As we poured over the acummulated document history on the research of
> these proposed sites last night I kept wondering where's the part abaut
> the kiters? What about us? Nowhere in there was there anything about the
> kiters or the use of the kite field other than to refer to the location of
> one of the possible sites geographically as "at the area known as the kite
> field". They addressed the impact on possible soil pollution, air
> pollution, water pollution, sound pollution, impacting wildlife but not
> one word obout the impact on kiters, bikers, rollerbladers, joggers,
> walkers, birders, sun worshippers, rocket launchers, boomerang throwers,
> lunch eaters and book readers that all start their thing right there at
> that little parking lot. The whole deal left a slightly sour taste in my
> mouth even though we won.

> Dave


> > So I guess I may as well weigh in on the dog/kite issue.  Hmmm - this IS a
> > tough one.

> > I am a big lover of both.  I love flying kites.  I also have a dog that I
> > completely dote on.  Max is a great dog and very well behaved, but not to the
> > point that I can *completely* rely on her not to run off if she sees something
> > interesting and isn't on a leash - she can be too friendly!  Therefore I have
> > to have her on a leash when she is not in the yard except in very few, safe,
> > controlled circumstances.  I take her running for excercise 4 or 5 times per
> > week (except in winter - sometimes 'run' actually means 'trudge through 8" of
> > snow on unshoveled sidewalks').  I also take her to 'doggy day care' (really)
> > once or twice a week so she can play and socialize with other dogs (really,
> > again - it helps keep dogs from getting isolated, hostile and agressive as
> > they age).  Would I love a controlled, fenced in area where I could take her
> > so she could play/run off the leash and see other dogs?  You absolutely bet I
> > would.

> > On the other hand.....

> > I love flying kites, but one of the frustrations I have is finding a good,
> > convenient place to fly.  West Michigan, I find, is limited in good flying
> > areas by...of all things...trees.  Many parks and ball fields (public areas)
> > are often hemmed in, sometimes quite closely, by tree stands.  That is
> > probably my biggest obstacle to being able to just find places to fly near
> > wherever I am.  (I keep my kites in my vehicle most of the time, in case I get
> > a chance to stop in at a good looking spot.  This has never happened - I don't
> > just drive by any 'good looking spots' too often.)  The best place to fly is
> > at the Big Lake, but at 40 minutes away it's hard to get there as often as I'd
> > like.  In fact, this time of year and spring, while a little colder, are
> > easier for me to fly in because with the leaves off the trees it opens more
> > places up a bit.  Would I love a nearby, convenient, clear space with clean
> > wind and 'good ground' (not tall weeds, not paved, etc.) that also has other
> > flyers to talk to and learn from?  You absolutely bet I would!

> > In the end, I'd say give it to the kite fliers because the geographic
> > necessities of a good kite area are 'pickier' than for a good dog area.  Large
> > cleared areas with no nearby wind obstacles can be tough to find.  A dog area
> > can be made nearly anywhere - they don't care about tree stands or steep hills
> > upwind!  Since there is more flexibility in picking a suitable dog place than
> > in picking a suitable kite place, I'd say...if you have a good kite place they
> > should let you keep it.  It will be easier to relocate the dogs to THEIR
> > satisfaction than it will be to relocate you (kiters) to YOUR satisfaction.
> > (Although I wouldn't want to be the one to try to resolve conflict between the
> > 'doggers' and 'kiters' at this park - heck I could barely resolve the conflict
> > between the dogger and kiter just within me!)

> > Good luck in your efforts to keep flying there!

> > JMK


> > > I went to fly yesterday at the local kite field I saw signs posted around
> > > the perimeter announcing that there's going to be a city council meeting
> > > (December 7th I think) to consider turning our designated (and constructed
> > > for) kite flying field into a dog field!! The field I'm describing is in
> > > Shoreline Park in  Mountain View, CA. I'm going out there today to meet
> > > and fly with Prism's Mark Reed (alrighty) compliments of Dan Whitney of
> > > Gone With The Wind Kites and I'll get the when and where specifics of the
> > > meeting and post it again here to try to get my fellow kite flying buds to
> > > show up and give 'em hell at the meeting. Get this, currently no dogs are
> > > allowed anywhere in the huge park and there are 100s of acres of
> > > undeveloped fields that could be turned into a dog turd pen. Go figure.

> > > Dave

--
D? ?