V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by Bria » Sun, 28 Oct 2001 04:13:48


I posed the original question a few days about V2 technique and I want
to follow-up with everyone.

I went out rollerskiing yesterday in Central Park and actively tried
to monitor my balance and gliding.  Here is what I noticed, my balance
is very good for V2alt and V1 becuase my body has a certain rhythm and
balance that is accustomed to those techniques.  I tried the V2 for a
while and just couldn't seem to find any sustainable rhythm, which in
turn throws off my balance.  Or maybe because of balance I can't get
the rhythm, but either way I think it is becaue of the rhythm/balance
issue.

The second thing that I noticed is the position of my skis and how it
causes problems for V2.  when i skate 'normally' (that is pole on my
LH side and glide on my right), i have a fluidity that just works.
when I go up hills, I pole on my RH side and herringbone a bit.  When
I'm on flat sections and try to V2, my natural instinct is to
herringbone a bit on my RH side - and this slight herringbone throws
off my rhythm, and hence my balance (or vice versa).

If i really concentrate on V2 I can do it fine, but I don't yet have
the fluidity (and hence confidence, or maybe that is backwards too)
for V2.  but the first days are the hardest days.  i'll guess i'll
continue to work on my balance, confidence, gliding and ski
positioning.

i guess i'll need to continue to watch perolof10 and concentrate on
his technique.

Brian

ps.  Do you think John Edward of Crossing Over fame can help me
channel Per Olof better?  ;-)

 
 
 

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by Janne » Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:24:39

Quote:

> I posed the original question a few days about V2 technique and I want
> to follow-up with everyone.

> I went out rollerskiing yesterday in Central Park and actively tried
> to monitor my balance and gliding.  Here is what I noticed, my balance
> is very good for V2alt and V1 becuase my body has a certain rhythm and
> balance that is accustomed to those techniques.  I tried the V2 for a
> while and just couldn't seem to find any sustainable rhythm, which in
> turn throws off my balance.  Or maybe because of balance I can't get
> the rhythm, but either way I think it is becaue of the rhythm/balance
> issue.

> The second thing that I noticed is the position of my skis and how it
> causes problems for V2.  when i skate 'normally' (that is pole on my
> LH side and glide on my right), i have a fluidity that just works.
> when I go up hills, I pole on my RH side and herringbone a bit.  When
> I'm on flat sections and try to V2, my natural instinct is to
> herringbone a bit on my RH side - and this slight herringbone throws
> off my rhythm, and hence my balance (or vice versa).

> If i really concentrate on V2 I can do it fine, but I don't yet have
> the fluidity (and hence confidence, or maybe that is backwards too)
> for V2.  but the first days are the hardest days.  i'll guess i'll
> continue to work on my balance, confidence, gliding and ski
> positioning.

> i guess i'll need to continue to watch perolof10 and concentrate on
> his technique.

Try to change side from your dominating side when doing V1 and concentrate
on this so you can with confidance switch between sides whitout hesitating
over not able to do it, even in steep climbes. I have this last two years
fighted my dominating right side and just done V1 on left side and this
did the trick for me.(i hope i mean the right tech when i refering to V1,
V2 and V2alt, Swedish nomenclature is gear 1-5).

Terje, if you are out there, what is the Norweigan names of the diffrent
techniques?

--

Forward in all directions

Janne G

 
 
 

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by phoff.. » Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:04:53

Norwegian-American author and masters skier Einar Svensson, in his book
" Ski Skating with Champions" uses the following terminology:

Paddle Dance = V1 = Offset

Double Dance = V2 = 1-skate

Single Dance = V2-alt = 2-skate

I wrote that in in his table on pp.198-199, where there are no less than 17
supposedly different skatingtechniques listed. You could use that book
for a graduate course in some universities these days---full of
engineering diagrams, but also lots of good pictures.



 
 
 

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by Terje Mathise » Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:00:29

Quote:

> Try to change side from your dominating side when doing V1 and concentrate
> on this so you can with confidance switch between sides whitout hesitating
> over not able to do it, even in steep climbes. I have this last two years
> fighted my dominating right side and just done V1 on left side and this
> did the trick for me.(i hope i mean the right tech when i refering to V1,
> V2 and V2alt, Swedish nomenclature is gear 1-5).

> Terje, if you are out there, what is the Norweigan names of the diffrent
> techniques?

I'm here, but I don't know what the current 'official' names are. It
used to be stuff like 'enkeltdans', 'dobbeltdans' etc., which translates
literally into 'single dance' and 'double dance'. :-)

Terje
--

Using self-discipline, see http://www.eiffel.com/discipline
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

 
 
 

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by Marty Kali » Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:52:17


Quote:


>> I posed the original question a few days about V2 technique and I want
>> to follow-up with everyone.

>> I went out rollerskiing yesterday in Central Park and actively tried to
>> monitor my balance and gliding.  Here is what I noticed, my balance is
>> very good for V2alt and V1 becuase my body has a certain rhythm and
>> balance that is accustomed to those techniques.  I tried the V2 for a
>> while and just couldn't seem to find any sustainable rhythm, which in
>> turn throws off my balance.  Or maybe because of balance I can't get
>> the rhythm, but either way I think it is becaue of the rhythm/balance
>> issue.

>> The second thing that I noticed is the position of my skis and how it
>> causes problems for V2.  when i skate 'normally' (that is pole on my LH
>> side and glide on my right), i have a fluidity that just works. when I
>> go up hills, I pole on my RH side and herringbone a bit.  When I'm on
>> flat sections and try to V2, my natural instinct is to herringbone a
>> bit on my RH side - and this slight herringbone throws off my rhythm,
>> and hence my balance (or vice versa).

>> If i really concentrate on V2 I can do it fine, but I don't yet have
>> the fluidity (and hence confidence, or maybe that is backwards too) for
>> V2.  but the first days are the hardest days.  i'll guess i'll continue
>> to work on my balance, confidence, gliding and ski positioning.

>> i guess i'll need to continue to watch perolof10 and concentrate on his
>> technique.

> Try to change side from your dominating side when doing V1 and
> concentrate on this so you can with confidance switch between sides
> whitout hesitating over not able to do it, even in steep climbes. I have
> this last two years fighted my dominating right side and just done V1 on
> left side and this did the trick for me.(i hope i mean the right tech
> when i refering to V1, V2 and V2alt, Swedish nomenclature is gear 1-5).

> Terje, if you are out there, what is the Norweigan names of the diffrent
> techniques?

Good advice. Have worked the last two years on deliberately switching
between (***) RH and LH on hills, forcing myself to do about
50/50. This seems to help a lot with V2. Slight, long downhills are the
place to practice V2, IMHO.

--marty

 
 
 

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by Gene Goldenfel » Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:07:29

I have the same problem of sustained balance in V2, especially on
larger wheeled rollerskis like the Aeros.  On the smaller wheeled
Marwe combis, I noticed that if I slow down my rhythm a bit I can
ride the ski longer, get more knee bend (compression) and get
better hand follow through.  The other part is weight shift: I'm
consciously turning my hips to prepare for the next stepoff as
soon as I'm up on a skate.  But I'm still learning this, and
trying to recall whether being on snow (and my skiing) is more
similar to the bigger wheels or the smaller ones.

Gene Goldenfeld

Quote:

> I posed the original question a few days about V2 technique and I want
> to follow-up with everyone.

> I went out rollerskiing yesterday in Central Park and actively tried
> to monitor my balance and gliding.  Here is what I noticed, my balance
> is very good for V2alt and V1 becuase my body has a certain rhythm and
> balance that is accustomed to those techniques.  I tried the V2 for a
> while and just couldn't seem to find any sustainable rhythm, which in
> turn throws off my balance.  Or maybe because of balance I can't get
> the rhythm, but either way I think it is becaue of the rhythm/balance
> issue.

> The second thing that I noticed is the position of my skis and how it
> causes problems for V2.  when i skate 'normally' (that is pole on my
> LH side and glide on my right), i have a fluidity that just works.
> when I go up hills, I pole on my RH side and herringbone a bit.  When
> I'm on flat sections and try to V2, my natural instinct is to
> herringbone a bit on my RH side - and this slight herringbone throws
> off my rhythm, and hence my balance (or vice versa).

> If i really concentrate on V2 I can do it fine, but I don't yet have
> the fluidity (and hence confidence, or maybe that is backwards too)
> for V2.  but the first days are the hardest days.  i'll guess i'll
> continue to work on my balance, confidence, gliding and ski
> positioning.

> i guess i'll need to continue to watch perolof10 and concentrate on
> his technique.

> Brian

> ps.  Do you think John Edward of Crossing Over fame can help me
> channel Per Olof better?  ;-)

 
 
 

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by Ken Robert » Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:17:57

To avoid one-side ***, another approach favored by some U.S.
instructors these days is to spend lots of time skating with no poles.  On
rollerskis, it's the technique I do the most.

Peter wrote

Quote:
> Paddle Dance = V1 = Offset
> Double Dance = V2 = 1-skate
> Single Dance = V2-alt = 2-skate

Thanks for straightening that out -- with the linkage to the sensible
Canadian terminology.

"V2 Alternate" strikes me as the most confusing term I've seen in any kind
of skiing -- precise in some theoretical sense, but unhelpful to 99% of
people trying to learn to ski.  And it makes it seem like the 2-skate
("enkeltdans") is some unusual advanced technique -- while I find it the
most straightforward.

Quote:
> Norwegian-American author and masters skier Einar Svensson, in his book
> " Ski Skating with Champions" . . .
> . . . You could use that book
> for a graduate course in some universities these days---full of
> engineering diagrams, but also lots of good pictures.

I think Svensson's book goes as far as possible in trying to make a book
with still pictures work as instruction.  But I found that my brain and
muscles just don't learn well from looking at sequences of still pictures.
My internal data pathways are set up for absorbing from video.

Ken

 
 
 

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by Andrey Revyaki » Thu, 01 Nov 2001 04:33:32

I like Swedish nomenclature best, as it reflects application of ea technique.
But... what it gear 5? Skating w/o poles?
I also like doing "odd" v2 alt on long downhills in maraphones, when you push
every 3 or 5 steps... this way you spend less energy, and use both sides of
your body. Can be considered gear "4.5", I guess.
Herring bone skate can be thought of as "4WD 1st gear" - he-he. Never done it
though.

Andrey.

Quote:


> > I posed the original question a few days about V2 technique and I want
> > to follow-up with everyone.

> > I went out rollerskiing yesterday in Central Park and actively tried
> > to monitor my balance and gliding.  Here is what I noticed, my balance
> > is very good for V2alt and V1 becuase my body has a certain rhythm and
> > balance that is accustomed to those techniques.  I tried the V2 for a
> > while and just couldn't seem to find any sustainable rhythm, which in
> > turn throws off my balance.  Or maybe because of balance I can't get
> > the rhythm, but either way I think it is becaue of the rhythm/balance
> > issue.

> > The second thing that I noticed is the position of my skis and how it
> > causes problems for V2.  when i skate 'normally' (that is pole on my
> > LH side and glide on my right), i have a fluidity that just works.
> > when I go up hills, I pole on my RH side and herringbone a bit.  When
> > I'm on flat sections and try to V2, my natural instinct is to
> > herringbone a bit on my RH side - and this slight herringbone throws
> > off my rhythm, and hence my balance (or vice versa).

> > If i really concentrate on V2 I can do it fine, but I don't yet have
> > the fluidity (and hence confidence, or maybe that is backwards too)
> > for V2.  but the first days are the hardest days.  i'll guess i'll
> > continue to work on my balance, confidence, gliding and ski
> > positioning.

> > i guess i'll need to continue to watch perolof10 and concentrate on
> > his technique.

> Try to change side from your dominating side when doing V1 and concentrate
> on this so you can with confidance switch between sides whitout hesitating
> over not able to do it, even in steep climbes. I have this last two years
> fighted my dominating right side and just done V1 on left side and this
> did the trick for me.(i hope i mean the right tech when i refering to V1,
> V2 and V2alt, Swedish nomenclature is gear 1-5).

> Terje, if you are out there, what is the Norweigan names of the diffrent
> techniques?

> --

> Forward in all directions

> Janne G

--
Waksman Institute,
Rutgers University,
New Jersey
(732) 445 23 87
 
 
 

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by Bob Larso » Thu, 01 Nov 2001 05:14:31

Quote:

> I like Swedish nomenclature best, as it reflects application of ea technique.
> But... what it gear 5? Skating w/o poles?
> I also like doing "odd" v2 alt on long downhills in maraphones, when you push
> every 3 or 5 steps... this way you spend less energy, and use both sides of
> your body. Can be considered gear "4.5", I guess.

  Your "odd" v2 alt is one of the "waltz" strides Koch talks about
  in his 1985 technique video.   In the video, he spends a lot of time
  covering waltz V1 (skate,skate,***,... and variations), but he
  mentions that the same thing can be done with V2-alt.  It's an
interesting
  video to see what's out of date and what's still used.  Koch's
  technique looks almost bizarre compared to what you see in
  more recent elite.  It's a great video though.  I had it out last
night
  and noticed he mentions classic skiing on sandy beaches.  I
  thought this was a more recent interest of his, but apparently he has
  been doing beach skiing for a long time.   But the waltz techniques
  he advocated back then don't seem to have caught on, really.  

  So would the gears be something like this? ...

  herringbone = getting out the winch
  diagonal skate =  1st gear
  V1 = paddled dance = offset = 2nd gear
  V2 = 1 skate = 3rd gear
  V2-alt = Gunde skate = open field = mach V2 = 2 skate = 4th gear
  no pole = 5th gear
  tuck = foot off the gas  
..........

Quote:
> Herring bone skate can be thought of as "4WD 1st gear" - he-he. Never done it
> though.
...
> > did the trick for me.(i hope i mean the right tech when i refering to V1,
> > V2 and V2alt, Swedish nomenclature is gear 1-5).
..
> > Janne G

  - Bob
 
 
 

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by Gene Goldenfel » Thu, 01 Nov 2001 15:33:05

Since most roads slant off to the right, if you're right-legged
you get plenty of practice on the left.  Likewise if you're right
hand *** for poling.  Otherwise, you have to make due.

Gene Goldenfeld

Quote:

> To avoid one-side ***, another approach favored by some U.S.
> instructors these days is to spend lots of time skating with no poles.  On
> rollerskis, it's the technique I do the most.

 
 
 

V2, balance and gliding in Central Park (was V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question)

Post by Gene Goldenfel » Thu, 01 Nov 2001 15:37:49

You'll notice in the video Koch's poles were a lot longer then.
I assume that since he lives (or lived) in Oregon he was making
it out to their long flat beaches.

Gene Goldenfeld

Quote:

>   Your "odd" v2 alt is one of the "waltz" strides Koch talks about
>   in his 1985 technique video.  ...It's a great video though.  I had it
>   out last night and noticed he mentions classic skiing on sandy
>   beaches.  I thought this was a more recent interest of his, but
>   apparently he has been doing beach skiing for a long time.   But the
>   waltz techniques he advocated back then don't seem to have caught on,
>   really.