Terje: Why do SkiO's only skate?

Terje: Why do SkiO's only skate?

Post by j.. » Sat, 23 Mar 2013 21:47:25


Hi... This one's for Terje.

I just looked into Ski-O. It seems they only skate. The online handbook says that skating off-trail in narrow conditions in loose snow up hills is hard and to herringbone and get purchase with the tips in the snow to the sides. It sounds miserable. Herringbone also doesn't work at all with un-kickwaxed skate-skis. Ugh! But it must be faster overall. On the flipside, such conditions sound perfect for classic. I suppose most SkiO courses only have a small amount of offtrail and one makes up the time on the groomers?

Classic vs Skating has long been interesting to me. Word is that WC skiers are 10% faster when skating. I suppose normal trails and normal skiers -- even at the top level of SkiO -- are faster yet when skating.

Anyway, just wondering your thoughts on this.

Thanks, JP

 
 
 

Terje: Why do SkiO's only skate?

Post by terje.mathisen at tmsw.n » Sat, 23 Mar 2013 22:44:11

Quote:

> Hi... This one's for Terje.

OK, I'm here of course...

Quote:

> I just looked into Ski-O. It seems they only skate. The online
> handbook says that skating off-trail in narrow conditions in loose
> snow up hills is hard and to herringbone and get purchase with the
> tips in the snow to the sides. It sounds miserable. Herringbone also
> doesn't work at all with un-kickwaxed skate-skis. Ugh! But it must be
> faster overall. On the flipside, such conditions sound perfect for
> classic. I suppose most SkiO courses only have a small amount of
> offtrail and one makes up the time on the groomers?

Ski-O skaters actually invented all the "modern" double pole moves,
those that made it possible for J rgen Auckland to do the (original)
classic Birken on skating skis last weekend (he ended up nr 4, his
brother Anders won),

Quote:

> Classic vs Skating has long been interesting to me. Word is that WC
> skiers are 10% faster when skating. I suppose normal trails and
> normal skiers -- even at the top level of SkiO -- are faster yet when
> skating.

> Anyway, just wondering your thoughts on this.

Ski-O used to be kick wax always, due to all the single-track parts, but
they used shorter skis, so they could skate as well on relatively narrow
trails. At one point in time some of them developed a double poling
technique which made it possible to push straight up really steep (but
not too long) hills, and from then on pure glide on skating skis have
dominated at the top level.

My only recent Ski-O race was two years ago
<http://tmsw.no/qr/show_map.php?user=terjem&map=300>, when I did a
public race alongside the World Masters champs in Lillehammer. I skied
it in mostly pre classic style, with regular classic skis, and still had
to herringbone the steepest hills in very soft snow.

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

 
 
 

Terje: Why do SkiO's only skate?

Post by edward.. » Mon, 25 Mar 2013 05:56:54

The technique used in Ski-O is only sort of skating.  With the emphasis so much on smaller trails and technical courses, there isn't much time spent on wide groomed trails.  

Take a look at this map from the WC races we hosted last year in Tahoe:  http://orienteering.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/M21-1_flat.jpg  All of those dashed trails were only set with a snowmobile, at most 4ft wide.  If there had been more snow there would have been even more.  On those trails all kinds of techniques are used, including a marathon skate like thing, and a lot of double pole.  Tracks would be obliterated really quickly, so I don't think a pure classic technique with kick wax would be fast.

For the uphills there is a ton of herringbone done, with skate skis.  You are also allowed to take your skis off and run straight through the woods, as long as you carry your skis with you.

Even if the conditions were perfect and there were tracks everywhere, a 10% difference in speed would be huge in terms of position.

Headcam video of that map can been seen at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0cB1Q8YE2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntuUQbsC2zU

The first video is Ali, the current US champ, and the second Antti, one of our finnish event advisiors.

Ed Despard

Quote:

> Hi... This one's for Terje.

> I just looked into Ski-O. It seems they only skate. The online handbook says that skating off-trail in narrow conditions in loose snow up hills is hard and to herringbone and get purchase with the tips in the snow to the sides. It sounds miserable. Herringbone also doesn't work at all with un-kickwaxed skate-skis. Ugh! But it must be faster overall. On the flipside, such conditions sound perfect for classic. I suppose most SkiO courses only have a small amount of offtrail and one makes up the time on the groomers?

> Classic vs Skating has long been interesting to me. Word is that WC skiers are 10% faster when skating. I suppose normal trails and normal skiers -- even at the top level of SkiO -- are faster yet when skating.

> Anyway, just wondering your thoughts on this.

> Thanks, JP


 
 
 

Terje: Why do SkiO's only skate?

Post by terje.mathisen at tmsw.n » Mon, 25 Mar 2013 18:02:47

Quote:

> The technique used in Ski-O is only sort of skating.  With the
> emphasis so much on smaller trails and technical courses, there isn't
> much time spent on wide groomed trails.

I know!

That was why I wrote about fancy new DP moves, I do remember the point
where a guy (from Finland?) first did a hilly Ski-O race on narrow
uphill tracks without kick wax.

Quote:
> For the uphills there is a ton of herringbone done, with skate skis.
> You are also allowed to take your skis off and run straight through
> the woods, as long as you carry your skis with you.

BTDT: _Many_ years ago, on a ski-o race in Sandefjord, Norway, we had a
long route choice leg on the way back to the event area: The control was
on top of an old ski jump hill, with a pretty good/wide track up on the
back side of it, but I decided on the direct route leading to the bottom
of the hill, then took my skis off and ran up. :-)

Quote:

> Even if the conditions were perfect and there were tracks everywhere,
> a 10% difference in speed would be huge in terms of position.

Absolutely, even if the glide speed difference is pretty much never
quite that that big.

It is more a case of DP being significantly more energy efficient than
any other form of skiing technique, since only the pole tips have to
stand still and all the energy goes in the right direction.

There was a paper some years back where they compared Max-O2 for world
cup class skiers, and found that although they all had very high
numbers, there was little or no correlation between Max-O2 and world cup
points.

When they did the same test, but measured upper body Max-O2 only, i.e.
double poling, they did find a very strong correlation.

I.e. skiing the 50K in Oslo used to be on soft manmade tracks, just
10-12 guys skiing the route once before the race, and all the skiers
carried poles with huge woven baskets but didn't really use them very
much for propulsion, just a small additional push.

Today it is the opposite, i.e. most of the (classic style!) worldloppet
long distance races are won by people DP'ing on skate skis.

Terje
--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

 
 
 

Terje: Why do SkiO's only skate?

Post by g.. » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 00:17:15

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 10:02:47 +0100

Quote:
> There was a paper some years back where they compared Max-O2 for
> world cup class skiers, and found that although they all had very
> high numbers, there was little or no correlation between Max-O2 and
> world cup points.

Do you recall where that paper was?  The push from Norwegian sport
scientist Jan Helgerud for training via long, repeated high intensity
interval blocks several years ago was based the idea that there was a
strong correlation.  As I understood it, that protocol screwed up
Bjoergen and other women's team members for awhile, while the men's
team steered clear.  I had long arguments with Torbjorn Karlsen, Becky
Scott's coach, about this subject (it's never been publicly documented
how much she actually followed the intensity block scheme).  As so
often happens in sports studies that make such claims, the subjects
used were previously sedentary, so big VO2 max gains in a short period
were virtually automatic.  

Gene

 
 
 

Terje: Why do SkiO's only skate?

Post by terje.mathisen at tmsw.n » Tue, 26 Mar 2013 06:02:43

Quote:

> On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 10:02:47 +0100

>> There was a paper some years back where they compared Max-O2 for
>> world cup class skiers, and found that although they all had very
>> high numbers, there was little or no correlation between Max-O2 and
>> world cup points.

> Do you recall where that paper was?  The push from Norwegian sport

No idea when/where I read it, sorry.

Quote:
> scientist Jan Helgerud for training via long, repeated high intensity
> interval blocks several years ago was based the idea that there was a
> strong correlation.  As I understood it, that protocol screwed up
> Bjoergen and other women's team members for awhile, while the men's

Huh, that is definitely news to me. :-)

Quote:
> team steered clear.  I had long arguments with Torbjorn Karlsen, Becky
> Scott's coach, about this subject (it's never been publicly documented
> how much she actually followed the intensity block scheme).  As so
> often happens in sports studies that make such claims, the subjects
> used were previously sedentary, so big VO2 max gains in a short period
> were virtually automatic.

The study I read (afair) had nothing to do with any new training
regimen, just measuring a bunch of world cup racers to figure out what
their max-O2 was, and then correlating that with their WC points.

Terje

--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"