Sport Today

does running downhill***your knees up? i say this because the
steeper the hill, the further your leg has to fall resulting in more
impact, resulting in a jar.

Realizing that the hill is the diagonal of the horizontal at the point of
initial foot contact...and that the diagonal is longer than the
horizontal...it would make sense that a normal stride would be an
overstride on a hill because the next step would be on the bottom of the
diagonal from where the last step initiated...then it would make sense to
me...and has for the past 20 years that in going done hill, I'd have to
place my foot down more quickly so that I don't overstride.

The other part is that in running down hill, the idea is to keep the body
from impacting vertically...especially if one overstides...and when you
think about it...the normal stride is an overstride because it lands on the
bottom of the diagonal...so once again the thinking body or the mindful
runner shortens the stride but following Denny and Charlie and Miles...and
GAPO... their 180 may have to go up to 190 so that there is no overstride
and one literally rolls down the hill on those 180 to 190
steps/minute...while the image is that body parallels the diagonal with
minimal vertical impact.    I know it can be done...doing it all the time.

And in going up hill, the same holds true but in reverse.  The steeper the
hill the shorter the step so that the body maintains the slight forward
lean.  That way I have taught several thousand people how to fall up a
hill.  That way the shorter step keeps the diagonal from being an
overstride.

--
In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
(Mindful Running) http://SportToday.org/

  Having recently posted that I'm back down around 160 pace, I'll note
that this is on the flat.  On a downhill, I'm going 180-190 pace.  As
the GAPO notes, minimizing impact and avoiding overstriding.  (And the
shortest steps that I've ever seen!  But here, gravity is doing the work.
My job is to get back off the ground with the least effort possible
so as to let gravity do more of the work.)

--

Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Donny:

    One of the tricks to running downhill is not to be afraid to lean
forward -- keep your knees under your hips, just like you do on the
flats. Most people lean back when going downhill, which results in
overstriding and creating a 'braking' action that causes a large strain
to be placed on the knee. It takes alittle practice to get confident
that you're not going to plant your face, you'll only go as fast was
your legs will turn over. And if you end up going down, don't forget to
tuck and roll! Saves your teeth!! Good Luck!

Mark

It <can> "screw your knees up" if you do it beyond your knees'
tolerance. How's that for an argument-in-a-circle.

Anyway, I had no knee problems for years until I did six weeks of
stadium running, combined with speedwork and heavy lower-body weight
workouts at the gym.

It proved too much for this 56-year-old frame, and I got patellar
tendinitis and medial collateral ligament strain. Cured them quickly by
ceasing stadiums and speedwork, plus self-massage, ice, and walking.

--
George Beinhorn

"HOW TO RUN YOUR FIRST 50-MILER"
http://SportToday.org/

   Ultrarunning o Yoga o Weight Loss
Fitness o Drug Recovery o Photography
       Business + Spirituality

It <can> "screw your knees up" if you do it beyond your knees'
tolerance. How's that for an argument-in-a-circle.

Anyway, I had no knee problems for years until I did six weeks of
stadium running, combined with speedwork and heavy lower-body weight
workouts at the gym.

It proved too much for this 56-year-old frame, and I got patellar
tendinitis and medial collateral ligament strain. Cured them quickly by
ceasing stadiums and speedwork, plus self-massage, ice, and walking.

--
George Beinhorn

"HOW TO RUN YOUR FIRST 50-MILER"
http://SportToday.org/

   Ultrarunning o Yoga o Weight Loss
Fitness o Drug Recovery o Photography
       Business + Spirituality

It <can> "screw your knees up" if you do it beyond your knees'
tolerance. How's that for an argument-in-a-circle.

Anyway, I had no knee problems for years until I did six weeks of
stadium running, combined with speedwork and heavy lower-body weight
workouts at the gym.

It proved too much for this 56-year-old frame, and I got patellar
tendinitis and medial collateral ligament strain. Cured them quickly by
ceasing stadiums and speedwork, plus self-massage, ice, and walking.

--
George Beinhorn

"HOW TO RUN YOUR FIRST 50-MILER"
http://SportToday.org/

   Ultrarunning o Yoga o Weight Loss
Fitness o Drug Recovery o Photography
       Business + Spirituality

George,

I'm not sure if that 3 posts are suppose to represent stuttering, were
caused by tremors of the hands caused by the residual effects of patellar
tendinitis and medial collateral ligament strain, or the effects of
lower-body weight workouts causing top of the body to have a decrease in
*** flow,possible middle age dementia, or a new form of screaming on the
internet.  Whatever, it was interesting and I read all three....looking
for....?????

In working people on steps I like to get have them feel no impact of the
foot on the step and then that foot/pedestal is the point from where the
rest of the body propels itself forward.

Back to St. George's (Sheehan) patellar tendinitis view which was always
one of straining the muscles above the tendon.  If the quads are worked
loose on an ongoing basis, it gives the fascia more of a chance not to
contract and stay contracted.

Anyway, George, your thoughts are always read by me....even when they're
the same.

--
In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
(Mindful Running) http://SportToday.org/

My  $ .02 ; Agree with you OZ,  that the turnover has to increase a
great deal. For me upwards of 200 s/m on steeper downhills.

However, I would like to challenge someone to videotape a runner
maintaining a body lean such that  the torso is perpendicular to the
slope of the hill. I've seen several references to that as being the
way to "save your knees".

The physics of the situation don't seem to support such a "lean" once
a steady state speed has been established - unless the intent is to
end up sliding on your forehead.

As far as I can tell, I travel downhill bolt upright (w/maybe a slight
lean to balance the wind resistance). I have tried a few times, after
reading some of the "lean" theories, and it dun't woik for me.

Increase turnover - shorten stride. That's what does it! IMHO, anyway.

 Denny Anderson

 To ERR is human... to ZIN, divine!

To " Increase turnover - shorten stride" is the reality that the lean
everybody talks about is not in the body,  the hill creates the lean.
Every step down the diagonal is the lean.  For me the idea is to get the
foot down fast enough that it says under the erect body because the hill
downward create the lean.

Love*** around the thinking that makes sense on rec.running.

--
In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
(Mindful Running) http://SportToday.org/

Lookey Here,I can Dig greece and chompin on some buns than draggin
through the garden

Words are a poor medium w/which to draw pictures. But, I think I've
got yer' picture now. Well, maybe.

If I stand facing downhill holding a plum-bob at arms length it will
point toward the earth's C of G. Ignoring wind resistance, when going
downhill my torso is parallel to the plum-bob line.

The slope of the hill and plum-bob line form an obtuse angle (i.e.

hill I (you) are leaning BACKWARD, yet the torso is still
approximately parallel to the vector forces created by the earth's C
of G.

Therefore the shorter, quicker stride gets the forward moving foot on
the ground quickly so we don't fall so far down the incline and over
stress our knee joints due to needless jarring!

If that is the essence of your description - then we are in agreement.

Cheers,

 Denny Anderson

 To ERR is human... to ZIN, divine!

Steroids?

Mike Tennent
"TriBop"
'98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

SNIP>

YES!

--
In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
(Mindful Running) http://www.mindfulness.com

Deliverance?