Running in the snow.

Running in the snow.

Post by Nun Give » Thu, 27 Dec 2012 16:52:16


The snow seems to slow me a bit. I ran 3 miles and it took me ~30 minutes.
12 laps around the outside of the track. I've been running daily.

I am going to start doing some slope running on a more regular basis.

Taking MSM prevents soreness even after longer runs of 7 or 8 miles.
Since all the 'right' people object, I know this is the right action.

Better living thru chemistry and the harnessed atom..........Trig

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by John Hurle » Fri, 28 Dec 2012 09:47:21

Trig:

# Taking MSM prevents soreness even after longer runs of 7 or 8 miles.

What's MSM?

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Nun Give » Fri, 28 Dec 2012 17:59:31

Quote:

> Trig:

> # Taking MSM prevents soreness even after longer runs of 7 or 8 miles.

> What's MSM?

The highly popular methylsulfonylmethane aka dimethylsulfone.

You may even be taking if you are taking a glucosamine supplement
with additional contents.

It is sign of old age not to read the fine print............Trig

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Doug Frees » Fri, 28 Dec 2012 21:53:38


Quote:

> Trig:

> # Taking MSM prevents soreness even after longer runs of 7 or 8 miles.

Maybe if you're deficient in sulfur.  In my opinion, taking anything to
prevent soreness from a run is not very bright.  You may claim prevent but I
say HIDE if it does anything.  Various degrees of soreness is the bodies
natural response muscle usage and why the age old adage "listen to your
body."   if you turn off or hide those responses your screwing with a
ticking bomb.

Quote:

> What's MSM?
> The highly popular methylsulfonylmethane aka dimethylsulfone.

Highly popular with whom?

Quote:
> You may even be taking if you are taking a glucosamine supplement
> with additional contents.

Mine happens  not to but I would change brands if it did.

Quote:
> It is sign of old age not to read the fine print............Trig

And a sign of missing some synapses if you needs MSM to run unless you need
sulfur.

-D

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Nun Give » Sat, 29 Dec 2012 19:40:48

Quote:




> > Trig:

> > # Taking MSM prevents soreness even after longer runs of 7 or 8 miles.

> Maybe if you're deficient in sulfur.  In my opinion, taking anything to

> prevent soreness from a run is not very bright.  You may claim prevent but I

> say HIDE if it does anything.  Various degrees of soreness is the bodies

> natural response muscle usage and why the age old adage "listen to your

> body."   if you turn off or hide those responses your screwing with a

> ticking bomb.

That is your opinion. I've been running for years off and on.
Soreness stopped me years ago and the soreness didn't leave.
I've been running for several years now so just when is this
old man have expect negative consequences? I could provide
a more indepth discussion but...........
It stops the damage from happening.

It's not like I am altering my COX1 or COX2 levels or
poisoning the chondrocytes with NSAIDs like if went
to a conventional Doc.

Quote:

> > What's MSM?

> > The highly popular methylsulfonylmethane aka dimethylsulfone.

> Highly popular with whom?

People who***people like you off, perhaps. Horse owners
for starters, old actors ;-). Costco, Walmart. researchers and others.

Smoke on this for starters:
J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2012 Apr;52(2):170-4.

Effect of methylsulfonylmethane supplementation on exercise -
Induced muscle damage and total antioxidant capacity.

Barmaki S, Bohlooli S, Khoshkhahesh F, Nakhostin-Roohi B.

Islamic Azad University-Ardabil branch, Ardabil, Iran.

AIM:
The aim of this study was to evaluate effect of 10-day methylsulfonylmethane
(MSM) supplementation on exercise-induced muscle damage.
METHODS:
Eigh*** healthy, non-smoking, active young men were recruited to
participate in this study. Participants were randomized in a double-blind
placebo-controlled fashion into two groups: MSM (M) (N.=9) and placebo (P)
(N.=9). Subjects consumed daily either placebo (200 mL water) or MSM supplement
(50 mg/kg MSM in 200 mL water) for 10 days. Afterward, participants ran 14 km.
*** samples were taken before supplementation, before exercise, immediately, 30 min, 2, 24 and 48 h after exercise.

RESULTS:
CK and bilirubin significantly increased in P group 24 h after exercise
compared to M group (P=0.041 and P=0.002, respectively). TAC increased
immediately post, 30 min, 2 and 24 h after exercise just in M group (P<0.05). TAC showed significant increase in M group 2 and 24 h after exercise compared to P group (P=0.014 and P=0.033, respectively).
CONCLUSION:
It seems that 10-day supplementation with MSM has allowed to decrease
muscle damage via effect on antioxidant capacity.

PMID: 22525653  [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Quote:

> > You may even be taking if you are taking a glucosamine supplement

> > with additional contents.

> Mine happens  not to but I would change brands if it did.

Good for you. And you take glucosamine? How's the response.
I found it useless. YMMV

Quote:

> > It is sign of old age not to read the fine print............Trig

> And a sign of missing some synapses if you needs MSM to run unless you need

> sulfur.

That's not the mechanism.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> -D

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Dot » Sun, 30 Dec 2012 09:56:32


Quote:




>>> Trig:

>>> # Taking MSM prevents soreness even after longer runs of 7 or 8 miles.

>> Maybe if you're deficient in sulfur.  In my opinion, taking anything to

>> prevent soreness from a run is not very bright.  You may claim prevent but I

>> say HIDE if it does anything.  Various degrees of soreness is the bodies

>> natural response muscle usage and why the age old adage "listen to your

>> body."   if you turn off or hide those responses your screwing with a

>> ticking bomb.

> That is your opinion. I've been running for years off and on.
> Soreness stopped me years ago and the soreness didn't leave.
> I've been running for several years now so just when is this
> old man have expect negative consequences? I could provide
> a more indepth discussion but...........
> It stops the damage from happening.

> It's not like I am altering my COX1 or COX2 levels or
> poisoning the chondrocytes with NSAIDs like if went
> to a conventional Doc.

>>> What's MSM?

>>> The highly popular methylsulfonylmethane aka dimethylsulfone.

>> Highly popular with whom?

> People who***people like you off, perhaps. Horse owners
> for starters, old actors ;-). Costco, Walmart. researchers and others.

> Smoke on this for starters:
> J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2012 Apr;52(2):170-4.

> Effect of methylsulfonylmethane supplementation on exercise -
> Induced muscle damage and total antioxidant capacity.

> Barmaki S, Bohlooli S, Khoshkhahesh F, Nakhostin-Roohi B.

> Islamic Azad University-Ardabil branch, Ardabil, Iran.

> AIM:
> The aim of this study was to evaluate effect of 10-day methylsulfonylmethane
> (MSM) supplementation on exercise-induced muscle damage.
> METHODS:
> Eigh*** healthy, non-smoking, active young men were recruited to
> participate in this study.

<sigh> and yet another study that doesn't include female senior citizens
in the population.

I guess that means I can go play in the snow without taking anything
other than food and water. I don't think I even made 2 mi in almost 2 hr
of moving or looking for the trail. (admittedly, it wasn't actually
"running" in the snow, but today was a change in pace)

--
Dot
"Surrender to the run and allow it to take you, rather than trying to
control or force an outcome."

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Doug Frees » Sun, 30 Dec 2012 11:02:19


Quote:
> That is your opinion. I've been running for years off and on.
> Soreness stopped me years ago and the soreness didn't leave.

You havent said jack about your training so one could conclude you were not
training smartly.

Quote:
> I've been running for several years now so just when is this
> old man have expect negative consequences?

Hmm, several years, damn that's almost  life time.  Define old man. Im 67
and running endurance for 26+ years so I have feel for both factors.

Quote:
>  I could provide
> a more indepth discussion but...........
> It stops the damage from happening.

> Highly popular with whom?

# People who***people like you off, perhaps. Horse owners
# for starters, old actors ;-). Costco, Walmart. researchers and others.

DMSO is for horses unless you whiney in your sleep or are a reincarnated Mr.
Ed.   Not pissed but without a lot more info I'm not buying this pig in the
poke.

#METHODS:
Eigh*** healthy, non-smoking, active young men were recruited to
participate in this study. Participants were randomized in a double-blind
placebo-controlled fashion into two groups: MSM (M) (N.=9) and placebo (P)
(N.=9). Subjects consumed daily either placebo (200 mL water) or MSM
supplement
(50 mg/kg MSM in 200 mL water) for 10 days. Afterward, participants ran 14
km.
*** samples were taken before supplementation, before exercise,
immediately, 30 min, 2, 24 and 48 h after exercise.#

My first response - what the hell means "Eigh*** healthy, non-smoking,
active young men?"  Any vaguer and we could substitute gerbils on a wheel.
The only thing this***ass study tells me, is this might be something to
look at with a larger more specific population.    if you want to use this
as medical breakthrough, be my guest.  Woefully undernourished study for my
take.  Besides, you suggesting you an old fart - looking for the fountain of
youth? :)

I'm having some fun but you have not even convinced me the earth is round.

-D

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Nun Give » Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:08:45

Quote:



> > That is your opinion. I've been running for years off and on.

> > Soreness stopped me years ago and the soreness didn't leave.

> You havent said jack about your training so one could conclude you were not

> training smartly.

Rubbish. It stopped me. It didn't get better. Bad training perhaps
but the long walks that came afterward were surely not a wrong.
MSM, EPA/DHA, dropping the polyuns, plus some other thing all
apparently help.

Quote:

> > I've been running for several years now so just when is this

> > old man have expect negative consequences?

> Hmm, several years, damn that's almost  life time.  Define old man. Im 67

> and running endurance for 26+ years so I have feel for both factors.

I ran from 18 to 39 then the break and now I started again.
I did hike with pains in the interim.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> >  I could provide

> > a more indepth discussion but...........

> > It stops the damage from happening.

> > Highly popular with whom?

> # People who***people like you off, perhaps. Horse owners

> # for starters, old actors ;-). Costco, Walmart. researchers and others.

> DMSO is for horses unless you whiney in your sleep or are a reincarnated Mr.

> Ed.   Not pissed but without a lot more info I'm not buying this pig in the

> poke.

Its not DSMO, its DMSO2 ;-)

You mock but me thinks your pig's head is under a blanket.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> #METHODS:

> Eigh*** healthy, non-smoking, active young men were recruited to

> participate in this study. Participants were randomized in a double-blind

> placebo-controlled fashion into two groups: MSM (M) (N.=9) and placebo (P)

> (N.=9). Subjects consumed daily either placebo (200 mL water) or MSM

> supplement

> (50 mg/kg MSM in 200 mL water) for 10 days. Afterward, participants ran 14

> km.

> *** samples were taken before supplementation, before exercise,

> immediately, 30 min, 2, 24 and 48 h after exercise.#

> My first response - what the hell means "Eigh*** healthy, non-smoking,

> active young men?"  Any vaguer and we could substitute gerbils on a wheel.

> The only thing this***ass study tells me, is this might be something to

> look at with a larger more specific population.    if you want to use this

> as medical breakthrough, be my guest.  Woefully undernourished study for my

> take.  Besides, you suggesting you an old fart - looking for the fountain of

> youth? :)

And you're doing so well? I do what I can. If you notice our
peers are getting their prostates removed, dropping dead, or are
just tubs of lard eating multiple conventional meds.

Quote:

> I'm having some fun but you have not even convinced me the earth is round.

I don't have to convince you. I was only offering the piece to prove
that I have grounds to experiment at least per my imperfect view.
Sure the study is under-powered by don't just focus on the number
of subjects.

Seven years behind but I gaining...............Trig

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> -D

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Doug Frees » Sun, 30 Dec 2012 21:01:52


Quote:


> You havent said jack about your training so one could conclude you were
> not

> training smartly.

# Rubbish. It stopped me. It didn't get better. Bad training perhaps
# but the long walks that came afterward were surely not a wrong.

You still havent mentioned anything about your training so you're talking
in the abstract. Just a big oil slick. Besides. what means is a long walk?
Are these flat 25 min/mile lackadaisical strolls,  gut wrenching
uphill/downhill  humps.

#MSM, EPA/DHA, dropping the polyuns, plus some other thing all
#apparently help.

If it works for you fine. Have you been tested for sulfur deficiencies?

Quote:
> I ran from 18 to 39 then the break and now I started again.
> I did hike with pains in the interim.

It still sounds like there is something physical going on

# You mock but me thinks your pig's head is under a blanket.

Yes under the blanket reading the study with a flashlight  writing on the
sidebar, to borrow from Clara Pellar, " Where's the beef;."  For a refresher
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug75diEyiA0

Quote:
> And you're doing so well?

Very well thank you. Averaging 3-5 ultra races a year. 81 at last count.

#I do what I can. If you notice our
# peers are getting their prostates removed, dropping dead, or are
# just tubs of lard eating multiple conventional meds.

I hear ya. All we can do in general is slow the slowing down.

# Seven years behind but I gaining...............Trig

And I'm slowing and easy pickin's.

-D

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Doug Frees » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 01:36:30


Quote:



>One of the level routes was 8 miles and I walked it fast. Another was
>a slope that I had run when I a bit younger, which takes one
>up a bit over additional 1000 feet. Not strolls. Anyway, I
> running these days.

Are you only doing 8 miles out of the gate? Do you vary you distance and
effort. Maybe 8 is too much for your baseline and you body is reacting and
why you need MSM.

Quote:
>Hmm.................lab test? That is one I've never seen on a

metabolic panel. I am not a vegan, I eat my share of eggs.
High in sulfur contain AAs though loaded inflammatory FAs
specifically arachidonic acid. Which does bring to mind,
that sometimes I've dropped most of eggs and red meat and
chose more fish instead.>

No shingle*** here but would suggest at your next checkup to explain to
you vet what is happening and that MSM seems to help. Maybe there is some
indirect relation with other minerals like K etc.

Quote:
> I suppose we could argue the science of your glucosamine

supplement ;-) Though I ruled it out by way of personal
empirics not studies indicating mix or ineffective results.>

I don't buy that glucosamine does jack with cartilage which was the original
claim. It is a very mild anti-inflammatory, way less harsh than any NSAID. I
have no idea if it doing anything but after 10 years I know it's not doing
anything bad. Many of my runs are 4-8 hours with thousands of feet in
elevation so I don t feel  anti-inflammatory is doing anything wrong.  If
it's doing nothing well, it's only a few cents.

Quote:
> Sure. I figured its inflammatory. It maybe a bit arthritis.

I seem to be able to control it, when I use enough interventions.
I do know not to use the standard NSAIDs, they ruin joints and
GI tracts.>

The  question de jour, is the inflammation from doing too much or something
missing?  Yes a steady diet of NSAIDs can be dangerous.

I haven't looked yet.

Quote:
> I am impressed.

Not bragging just to say age has some limiting factors, especially speed,
but doesn't negate distance or elevation if approached slowly.

Quote:
> # Seven years behind but I gaining...............Trig

> And I'm slowing and easy pickin's.
> Both of us. I am trying to get fast enough to

keep up with the older guy this spring on the local track.
He going to the gym/fitness center. I think his
regimen must be excellent.>

Sounds like he has a well mapped out program and likely contains diversity,
i.e cross training, maybe cross dressing.  One of reasons I was trying
understand your regime was to see if it made proper training sense.  To only
discuss the  problem with a long run is a needle in the arse, it hurts, but
don t know why.  The haystack analogy is too boring. ;)

Among the repartee, I was trying to be helpful.

-d

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Nun Give » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 09:08:11

Quote:






> >One of the level routes was 8 miles and I walked it fast. Another was

> >a slope that I had run when I a bit younger, which takes one

> >up a bit over additional 1000 feet. Not strolls. Anyway, I

> > running these days.

> Are you only doing 8 miles out of the gate? Do you vary you distance and

> effort. Maybe 8 is too much for your baseline and you body is reacting and

> why you need MSM.

No no. That is what I was doing at times when I had to quit running
back in the day.

These days I run between 1.5 to 5 miles during the spring I was
going longer.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> >Hmm.................lab test? That is one I've never seen on a

> metabolic panel. I am not a vegan, I eat my share of eggs.

> High in sulfur contain AAs though loaded inflammatory FAs

> specifically arachidonic acid. Which does bring to mind,

> that sometimes I've dropped most of eggs and red meat and

> chose more fish instead.>

> No shingle*** here but would suggest at your next checkup to explain to

> you vet what is happening and that MSM seems to help. Maybe there is some

> indirect relation with other minerals like K etc.

> > I suppose we could argue the science of your glucosamine

> supplement ;-) Though I ruled it out by way of personal

> empirics not studies indicating mix or ineffective results.>

> I don't buy that glucosamine does jack with cartilage which was the original

> claim. It is a very mild anti-inflammatory, way less harsh than any NSAID. I

> have no idea if it doing anything but after 10 years I know it's not doing

> anything bad. Many of my runs are 4-8 hours with thousands of feet in

> elevation so I dont feel  anti-inflammatory is doing anything wrong.  If

> it's doing nothing well, it's only a few cents.

The concern with glucosamine is that it may raise *** glucose
levels. Which one of the issues that pushes me to run, besides
from the fact I feel vastly better and regular
running totally controls postural/orthostatic
hypotension.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> > Sure. I figured its inflammatory. It maybe a bit arthritis.

> I seem to be able to control it, when I use enough interventions.

> I do know not to use the standard NSAIDs, they ruin joints and

> GI tracts.>

> The  question de jour, is the inflammation from doing too much or something

> missing?  Yes a steady diet of NSAIDs can be dangerous.

Possibly too much polyunsaturated FA's with a dash of autoimmunity?
Aleve or similar would have me doubled over inside a couple of days.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> I haven't looked yet.

> > I am impressed.

> Not bragging just to say age has some limiting factors, especially speed,

> but doesn't negate distance or elevation if approached slowly.

> > # Seven years behind but I gaining...............Trig

> > And I'm slowing and easy pickin's.

> > Both of us. I am trying to get fast enough to

> keep up with the older guy this spring on the local track.

> He going to the gym/fitness center. I think his

> regimen must be excellent.>

> Sounds like he has a well mapped out program and likely contains diversity,

> i.e cross training, maybe cross dressing.  One of reasons I was trying

> understand your regime was to see if it made proper training sense.  To only

> discuss the  problem with a long run is a needle in the arse, it hurts, but

> dont know why.  The haystack analogy is too boring. ;)

I agree with you, I need a more varied program. For awhile I was just
distance running and the results were 'OK' but funny.
Everything became an 8 minute
mile, run a mile, 8 minutes, run 5 miles, 40 minutes, run 8 miles, 64 minutes.
The year before with a varied pace of runs, I was doing better at
least the 3 mile mark with fairly regular 20 minute runs or faster.

So I am starting hill runs as part of regimen. I do some weight lifting
and some stuff on a pool mat. A thick pool side mat is vastly better than
an a foam exercise mat as sold in the local MegloMart. The upper body
is what's worn out on this man. What I do with should be call physical
therapy with the upper body. This year I did to physical jobs more
suitable to a 20 year old just out of boot camp; just doing what
I have to do in work and on the track when I have the time and
energy.

Quote:

> Among the repartee, I was trying to be helpful.

The varied exercise point is a good one, and you reinforced
the point by your success. It matches what I observed.

Now to focus the mind and keep at it.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> -d

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Nun Give » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 17:24:52

Three miles run today in the snow plus several more walked.
No soreness, I'll run tommorrow likely. I felt stronger on this
run.

Trig

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Doug Frees » Wed, 02 Jan 2013 05:53:12


Quote:
>Three miles run today in the snow plus several more walked.
> No soreness, I'll run tommorrow likely. I felt stronger on this
> run.

More is not always better.  Even though there isnt any overt soreness,
there may still be some less acute problem. I'm simply suggesting that using
pain as your measure for when to rest or medicate can be counter productive.
Telling a type A the value of a rest day can be an uphill battle. ;)  Dont
forget that the concept of hard/easy days is well proven for the beginner to
the elite.  The hardest part of H/E is the individual defining both factors.
Easy can be passive as in a day off or active as an easy walk, swimming.
stationary bike, core work, yoga and the band plays on.

I'm sure this sounds like it's too basic or too slow, especially remembering
what you used to be able to do,  but taking a slower path with proper
recovery and you may get to or past the point where your body barks at you.
I'm sensing from reading between the lines, that your aggressive, aka type
A, and always pushing the  envelope a bit too hard.

Caveat lector
-D

 
 
 

Running in the snow.

Post by Nun Give » Wed, 02 Jan 2013 15:00:36

Quote:

> More is not always better.  Even though there isnt any overt soreness,

> there may still be some less acute problem. I'm simply suggesting that using

> pain as your measure for when to rest or medicate can be counter productive.

> Telling a type A the value of a rest day can be an uphill battle. ;)  Dont

> forget that the concept of hard/easy days is well proven for the beginner to

> the elite.  The hardest part of H/E is the individual defining both factors.

> Easy can be passive as in a day off or active as an easy walk, swimming.

> stationary bike, core work, yoga and the band plays on.

> I'm sure this sounds like it's too basic or too slow, especially remembering

> what you used to be able to do,  but taking a slower path with proper

> recovery and you may get to or past the point where your body barks at you.

> I'm sensing from reading between the lines, that your aggressive, aka type

> A, and always pushing the  envelope a bit too hard.

> Caveat lector

> -D

Well I ran again today (3 miles). I didn't push the speed anyway its slick
out in places. I will skip tommorrow. I'll work the upper body and
core. Or just 'freeze' fingers depending on what I choose to do.

Just remember my chondrocytes aren't poisoned by what I do; whereas,
if I took the conventional NSAIDs they would be.

I try to know my limits but to gain takes effort.

I am methodical, persistent, and tough and have been told
that to my face by all manner of people who just had to comment.

I do try keep the joints happy.

The beauty of common sense is that
it can be fatal to its possessor...................Trig