a few beginner questions

a few beginner questions

Post by Audrey Ree » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:58:39


I'm a beginner and am training for my first 5k in March.  I've been
trying to wade through the newsgroup and FAQs, but I can't seem to find
a couple of pieces of info.  

1. Is there a recommended weight lifting reigm for runners?
2. So many of the articles/postings recommend to run a minimum of 3
times a week (including most of the "How to run your 1st 5k" articles),
but I don't really feel like that will get me there.  I've been doing a
run/walk combo 5 days a week (or so) for a few weeks now.  Should I lay
off and do the 3 days? Or should I do the 3 days of running and maybe 3
days of weights?  
3. Can anyone recommend a good on-line store for buying running clothes
(specifically wicking materials for running in the cold)?  I'm in
Dallas, and it's been darn cold this winter (in my humble, used to live
in South Texas opinion).  

I hope these questions make sense.  Thanks for your help!

Regards,
Audrey

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by SwStudi » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 05:17:13


Quote:
> I'm a beginner and am training for my first 5k in March.  I've been
> trying to wade through the newsgroup and FAQs, but I can't seem to find
> a couple of pieces of info.

> 1. Is there a recommended weight lifting reigm for runners?

There's no specific need to lift weights to maintain a running program.
If you do however, want to use weight training as part of your overall
fitness program, I would suggest keeping everything lights and do many
reps. Ab work is always good, as strong abs are good for runners. It
helps breathing work more efficiently, as well as reduces side stitches.

Quote:
> 2. So many of the articles/postings recommend to run a minimum of 3
> times a week (including most of the "How to run your 1st 5k" articles),
> but I don't really feel like that will get me there.  I've been doing a
> run/walk combo 5 days a week (or so) for a few weeks now.  Should I lay
> off and do the 3 days? Or should I do the 3 days of running and maybe 3
> days of weights?

I understand your enthusiasm, however, a combination of too heavy
a load and inexperienced tendons/muscles, etc. will usually lead to
injury. Stick with 3 times a week for at least a month... these programs
are written by people who have experience. Trust it. If you feel like
'stepping up' your program, try adding more intensity to one of the days,
such as going a little longer than usual. Maybe even try too reduce the
walking parts of your runs - this should occur before you move to 5 days
a week. Make your next goal to run for 20 minutes without walking. If
you can already do that, try 30 minutes, or try running the existing 20
a little faster. The important thing is that you have to get your body a
little more used to the demands of running before introducing it as an
almost daily affair.

David (in Hamilton, Ont)

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by Joseph Meeha » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:54:50

Begin Quote
 3. Can anyone recommend a good on-line store for buying running clothes
(specifically wicking materials for running in the cold)?
End Quote

http://www.rei.com/cgi-bin/imagemap/map/ggnav.map?52,12

or

http://www.runnersworld.com/

--
Dia 's Muire duit

Joe M

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by Sean Cheste » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:00:30

I would not recommend weight lifting as a method of training for your
race.  If you wish to do it on the side, there's no problem with that,
just so long as you keep the weights down and the reps up, and strive
for toned muscles rather than muscular muscles.  I also see no problem
with running five days a week, so long as you're not running so far as
to put strain on your body.  Do what feels comfortable for you, and if
you start to really ache, lower the pace.  If you're finding your
training fairly easy, try running a little faster or lenghtening your
runs.  I know myself I only have two days a week I have the time to run,
so I really envy you.

         -Sean

Quote:

> I'm a beginner and am training for my first 5k in March.  I've been
> trying to wade through the newsgroup and FAQs, but I can't seem to find
> a couple of pieces of info.

> 1. Is there a recommended weight lifting reigm for runners?
> 2. So many of the articles/postings recommend to run a minimum of 3
> times a week (including most of the "How to run your 1st 5k" articles),
> but I don't really feel like that will get me there.  I've been doing a
> run/walk combo 5 days a week (or so) for a few weeks now.  Should I lay
> off and do the 3 days? Or should I do the 3 days of running and maybe 3
> days of weights?
> 3. Can anyone recommend a good on-line store for buying running clothes
> (specifically wicking materials for running in the cold)?  I'm in
> Dallas, and it's been darn cold this winter (in my humble, used to live
> in South Texas opinion).

> I hope these questions make sense.  Thanks for your help!

> Regards,
> Audrey

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by Steve Freide » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:08:42

Quote:

> I'm a beginner and am training for my first 5k in March.  I've been
> trying to wade through the newsgroup and FAQs, but I can't seem to find
> a couple of pieces of info.

> 1. Is there a recommended weight lifting [regime] for runners?

Interesting you should ask that question.  I'm in the middle of doing an
experiment with myself as the subject.  I'll post a full report at some
point in the future when I've had enough time to better see the results
and understand them, but for now, allow me *disagree* with the other two
responses you've received so far.

Specifically, I'll refer you to "Power To The People" by Pavel
Tsatsouline, who trained Soviet Special Forces.  He has a very
interesting take on weight lifting, and his focus is strength, pure and
simple, not becoming the next Ah-nold <smile>.

*Theory*   Pavel says doing large numbers of repetitions tends to build
muscle mass, something you don't particularly want as a runner.  Of
course, if you do high reps and you use very little weight, you won't
build your muscles mass very much, but neither will you become much
stronger - that's the important part to realize.  The "pump" you get in
your muscles from doing high repetitions isn't an indicator of strength
or increased muscle size; it's just a lot of *** going to your muscles
to deal with the high repetitions you're throwing at them, nothing
more.  Body builders do high reps, too, and none of us runners wants to
be a body builder.

*My Old Regime*   I used to spend about 60-90 minutes in the gym, three
times a week.  I scheduled (and still do) my sessions after my hard runs
so that I'd have plenty of time to recover before the next hard run, and
I did almost all the weight machines my gym had, performing 3 sets of 15
repetitions on each, short rests between sets of :30-1:00, and ending up
with 500-1000 crunches on an ab roller.

*My New Regime*   About two months ago, I switched to the Comrade Pavel
philosophy, which is very simple - 2 sets of 5 repetitions of only a few
exercises, with long rests between sets of 3:00-5:00, but with much
heavier weight.  "1RM" is weight lifting shorthand for "One Repetition
Maximum", or the most you could lift if you had to do it once only.
Pavel recommends doing your first set of 5 at 90% of your 1RM, then the
second set at 80% of 1RM.  Contrary to popular belief, working your
muscles to exhaustion is another thing that doesn't make them stronger
without making them bigger.  If you want strength and no bulk, you want
to avoid exhausting your muscles.  What you want instead is an intense
but short session, one that requires you to really tighten your abs and
back, one in which you really focus for a few short repetitions and then
stop feeling like you could have done at least one more.

He recommends doing only two exercises: deadlifts (where you pick up a
barbell from the floor, stand up with it but don't lift it any further,
then put it down again), and one-armed overhead presses (where you take
a barbell and hoist it overhead with one hand).  I do those two, plus
crunches because I like the extra ab work, but I now do my crunches on
an angled board at the steepest position, I do 3 sets of 5, and I do
them *very* slowly.

*Results*   The difference in how strong I am and how I feel is so
dramatic as to be difficult for even me to believe.  The best example
for me is my lower back - I have two herniated discs, and beside those
I've had twinges and tingles in my lower back for the last 20 years.
Now, seemingly miraculously, I have none.  Those ab muscles I've always
wanted have appeared, and everyday life just seems easier because I'm so
much stronger.  I look thinner but my weight is the same.

*Conclusion*   Let's put this in a running perspective - I am not
_faster_ because of my weight lifting, but I am stronger, and that
strength helps me finish a hard workout, helps keep my form good when
I'm tired at the end of long run, and somehow deadlifting, which works
the heck out of the backs of your legs, has made touching my toes
easier, not harder as I expected.

Quote:
> 2. So many of the articles/postings recommend to run a minimum of 3
> times a week (including most of the "How to run your 1st 5k" articles),
> but I don't really feel like that will get me there.  I've been doing a
> run/walk combo 5 days a week (or so) for a few weeks now.  Should I lay
> off and do the 3 days? Or should I do the 3 days of running and maybe 3
> days of weights?

Either you lift on your hard days or you lift on your easy days.  As I
said above, I lift on my hard days, run in the AM, lift in the PM, so
that I've got a day and a half minimum to recover before my next hard
run.  5 days a week is fine, so is running 6 or 7 days a week, just
alternate hard and easy days.  Sometimes back-to-back hard days can work
for you but be careful.  There are lots of good books on running
training; my favorite is Jack Daniels, "Running Formula."  The main
thing is to learn to sense when you need rest and take it; if you don't,
you get injured or sick and then you can't continue to train as you
want.

Hope all this is of some help to you.

-S-

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by CW » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:43:41

As far as an on-line source for running clothes Road Runner Sports is well
known.  Since you say you live in Dallas you also have some very good local
sources: Run-On and Lukes (both specialty running stores) and REI (which
sells on-line and also has a Dallas store).  Also, while it might feel cold
when you are walking remember to not over dress when you run your full
training route.  Someone else in this group said, and I certainly agree,
that when deciding what to wear for running dress like it is 20 degrees
warmer than it really is.
As far as how frequently to run, if you feel comfortable with five days of
running I would stick with that.
Chuck


Quote:
> I'm a beginner and am training for my first 5k in March.  I've been
> trying to wade through the newsgroup and FAQs, but I can't seem to find
> a couple of pieces of info.

> 1. Is there a recommended weight lifting reigm for runners?
> 2. So many of the articles/postings recommend to run a minimum of 3
> times a week (including most of the "How to run your 1st 5k" articles),
> but I don't really feel like that will get me there.  I've been doing a
> run/walk combo 5 days a week (or so) for a few weeks now.  Should I lay
> off and do the 3 days? Or should I do the 3 days of running and maybe 3
> days of weights?
> 3. Can anyone recommend a good on-line store for buying running clothes
> (specifically wicking materials for running in the cold)?  I'm in
> Dallas, and it's been darn cold this winter (in my humble, used to live
> in South Texas opinion).

> I hope these questions make sense.  Thanks for your help!

> Regards,
> Audrey

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by Sean Cheste » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:57:00

A very good response, but it did leave me with one question...Being a
beginning runner, is strength what they would want to build, or would
they be more better off trying to build endurance first?
Quote:


> > I'm a beginner and am training for my first 5k in March.  I've been
> > trying to wade through the newsgroup and FAQs, but I can't seem to find
> > a couple of pieces of info.

> > 1. Is there a recommended weight lifting [regime] for runners?

> Interesting you should ask that question.  I'm in the middle of doing an
> experiment with myself as the subject.  I'll post a full report at some
> point in the future when I've had enough time to better see the results
> and understand them, but for now, allow me *disagree* with the other two
> responses you've received so far.

> Specifically, I'll refer you to "Power To The People" by Pavel
> Tsatsouline, who trained Soviet Special Forces.  He has a very
> interesting take on weight lifting, and his focus is strength, pure and
> simple, not becoming the next Ah-nold <smile>.

> *Theory*   Pavel says doing large numbers of repetitions tends to build
> muscle mass, something you don't particularly want as a runner.  Of
> course, if you do high reps and you use very little weight, you won't
> build your muscles mass very much, but neither will you become much
> stronger - that's the important part to realize.  The "pump" you get in
> your muscles from doing high repetitions isn't an indicator of strength
> or increased muscle size; it's just a lot of *** going to your muscles
> to deal with the high repetitions you're throwing at them, nothing
> more.  Body builders do high reps, too, and none of us runners wants to
> be a body builder.

> *My Old Regime*   I used to spend about 60-90 minutes in the gym, three
> times a week.  I scheduled (and still do) my sessions after my hard runs
> so that I'd have plenty of time to recover before the next hard run, and
> I did almost all the weight machines my gym had, performing 3 sets of 15
> repetitions on each, short rests between sets of :30-1:00, and ending up
> with 500-1000 crunches on an ab roller.

> *My New Regime*   About two months ago, I switched to the Comrade Pavel
> philosophy, which is very simple - 2 sets of 5 repetitions of only a few
> exercises, with long rests between sets of 3:00-5:00, but with much
> heavier weight.  "1RM" is weight lifting shorthand for "One Repetition
> Maximum", or the most you could lift if you had to do it once only.
> Pavel recommends doing your first set of 5 at 90% of your 1RM, then the
> second set at 80% of 1RM.  Contrary to popular belief, working your
> muscles to exhaustion is another thing that doesn't make them stronger
> without making them bigger.  If you want strength and no bulk, you want
> to avoid exhausting your muscles.  What you want instead is an intense
> but short session, one that requires you to really tighten your abs and
> back, one in which you really focus for a few short repetitions and then
> stop feeling like you could have done at least one more.

> He recommends doing only two exercises: deadlifts (where you pick up a
> barbell from the floor, stand up with it but don't lift it any further,
> then put it down again), and one-armed overhead presses (where you take
> a barbell and hoist it overhead with one hand).  I do those two, plus
> crunches because I like the extra ab work, but I now do my crunches on
> an angled board at the steepest position, I do 3 sets of 5, and I do
> them *very* slowly.

> *Results*   The difference in how strong I am and how I feel is so
> dramatic as to be difficult for even me to believe.  The best example
> for me is my lower back - I have two herniated discs, and beside those
> I've had twinges and tingles in my lower back for the last 20 years.
> Now, seemingly miraculously, I have none.  Those ab muscles I've always
> wanted have appeared, and everyday life just seems easier because I'm so
> much stronger.  I look thinner but my weight is the same.

> *Conclusion*   Let's put this in a running perspective - I am not
> _faster_ because of my weight lifting, but I am stronger, and that
> strength helps me finish a hard workout, helps keep my form good when
> I'm tired at the end of long run, and somehow deadlifting, which works
> the heck out of the backs of your legs, has made touching my toes
> easier, not harder as I expected.

> > 2. So many of the articles/postings recommend to run a minimum of 3
> > times a week (including most of the "How to run your 1st 5k" articles),
> > but I don't really feel like that will get me there.  I've been doing a
> > run/walk combo 5 days a week (or so) for a few weeks now.  Should I lay
> > off and do the 3 days? Or should I do the 3 days of running and maybe 3
> > days of weights?

> Either you lift on your hard days or you lift on your easy days.  As I
> said above, I lift on my hard days, run in the AM, lift in the PM, so
> that I've got a day and a half minimum to recover before my next hard
> run.  5 days a week is fine, so is running 6 or 7 days a week, just
> alternate hard and easy days.  Sometimes back-to-back hard days can work
> for you but be careful.  There are lots of good books on running
> training; my favorite is Jack Daniels, "Running Formula."  The main
> thing is to learn to sense when you need rest and take it; if you don't,
> you get injured or sick and then you can't continue to train as you
> want.

> Hope all this is of some help to you.

> -S-

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by The Westcott' » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:23:44

In Dallas, there are a number of good running stores:

Run On (3 locations, I really like the Richardson location).
Lukes (Oak Lawn)
Swiatocha's (Park Cities).

On-line there is
www.roadrunnersports.com
www.holabirdsports.com
www.rei.com

And, you're right.  It has been a darn cold winter this year, after a darn
hot summer and no in-between!

Keep on running...

Bob


Quote:
> I'm a beginner and am training for my first 5k in March.  I've been
> trying to wade through the newsgroup and FAQs, but I can't seem to find
> a couple of pieces of info.

> 1. Is there a recommended weight lifting reigm for runners?
> 2. So many of the articles/postings recommend to run a minimum of 3
> times a week (including most of the "How to run your 1st 5k" articles),
> but I don't really feel like that will get me there.  I've been doing a
> run/walk combo 5 days a week (or so) for a few weeks now.  Should I lay
> off and do the 3 days? Or should I do the 3 days of running and maybe 3
> days of weights?
> 3. Can anyone recommend a good on-line store for buying running clothes
> (specifically wicking materials for running in the cold)?  I'm in
> Dallas, and it's been darn cold this winter (in my humble, used to live
> in South Texas opinion).

> I hope these questions make sense.  Thanks for your help!

> Regards,
> Audrey

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by Wade Emmer » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:11:58

I too live in Dallas and am a new runner -- 3 months.  I've been using
Asimba (www.asimba.com) for training programs.  It's great.  They email you
your daily training regimine each day.  There are also many to chose from.

Wade


Quote:
> I'm a beginner and am training for my first 5k in March.  I've been
> trying to wade through the newsgroup and FAQs, but I can't seem to find
> a couple of pieces of info.

> 1. Is there a recommended weight lifting reigm for runners?
> 2. So many of the articles/postings recommend to run a minimum of 3
> times a week (including most of the "How to run your 1st 5k" articles),
> but I don't really feel like that will get me there.  I've been doing a
> run/walk combo 5 days a week (or so) for a few weeks now.  Should I lay
> off and do the 3 days? Or should I do the 3 days of running and maybe 3
> days of weights?
> 3. Can anyone recommend a good on-line store for buying running clothes
> (specifically wicking materials for running in the cold)?  I'm in
> Dallas, and it's been darn cold this winter (in my humble, used to live
> in South Texas opinion).

> I hope these questions make sense.  Thanks for your help!

> Regards,
> Audrey

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by BarryN » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:01:46


Quote:
> A very good response, but it did leave me with one question...Being a
> beginning runner, is strength what they would want to build, or would
> they be more better off trying to build endurance first?

It probably comes down to opinion, and also what you are trying to achieve.
Personally, I'd suggest working on endurance first to build to at least
20miles/week. You can do this over 3 days per week (eg.8+6+6) or over 4 days
(eg.7+5+4+4) although I'd say 20mpw is probably too little to spread over 5
days.

Once you've got to 20mpw you can start making some of your runs strength
building workouts, eg. if you are doing 20mpw over 4 days, try:

Sun: Long run - 7 miles
Mon: Rest
Tue: Speedwork: 4 x 800m (plus warm-up and cooldown = 4 miles)
Wed: Rest
Thu: 3 miles tempo pace (plus warm-up and cooldown = 5 miles)
Fri: 4 miles easy
Sat: Rest.

Throw in some weight training on your easy or rest days.

--
Regards, Barry
Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by Mistress Krist » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:57:04


Quote:
> A very good response, but it did leave me with one question...Being a
> beginning runner, is strength what they would want to build, or would
> they be more better off trying to build endurance first?

These two things are not mutually exclusive.  "Strength" is not a singular
quality, but is very malleable to the needs of each trainee. All athletes,
whatever their sport, can benefit from an intelligently designed weight
training program.

I suggest Michael Yessis' book "Explosive Running" for the theory and
practical application of strength training for runners.

Krista

--
-------------------------
http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by Steve Freide » Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:02:10

Quote:

> A very good response, but it did leave me with one question...Being a
> beginning runner, is strength what they would want to build, or would
> they be more better off trying to build endurance first?

Thanks for the kind words.

I don't think it's an either/or proposition.  It sounds like has decided
she likes or wants to both run and lift, and I don't see any problem
with that.  

All other things being equal, I'd recommend running first because, all
other things being equal, if I could only do one of them, I'd run; I
like it better and feel it offers more overall health benefits than
lifting.  But all other things are rarely equal.  If, e.g., she turns
out to be injury prone as a runner, strength training has great
potential to allow her to run when she otherwise could not.

When I started running, as soon as I got to the point of actually
running non-stop for 20 minutes at a time, I started to have knee
troubles and have to see a PT and get quad strengthening exercises; had
I been stronger, I probably wouldn't have gotten injured.

I think doing both is great, and better than just running - at least
that's how it's worked out for me and I can't see it harming anyone.
And I'll stand by my recommendation to lift after running on hard days
so that the lifting can be treated as "hard" too, then fully recovered
from.  Treating the lifting as "hard" is an important part of the
concept of lifting as I explained it in my earlier posting.

-S-

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by Chris Whit » Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:57:40


Quote:
> I suggest Michael Yessis' book "Explosive Running" for the theory and
> practical application of strength training for runners.

I like Yessis' book, too, but I would not consider it especially appropriate
for a beginning runner. IMO, he is writing for highly competitive or even
elite athletes. He uses many terms (including his discussion of the parts of
the running stride) without ever carefully defining or explaining them --
you can puzzle them out eventually, but a little better text and some
well-drawn diagrams to go with the wonderful photos would have added
tremendously to the value of the book, for me. Many of his exercises are
difficult to do safely, especially the ones that aim to make one more
"explosive." And I'm also made a little uneasy by his advocacy of oxygenated
water as a recovery aid ... the physics/physiology seems a bit bizarre,
IMHO. And personally, I find that static stretches very helpful and, for me,
his dismissal of them is dangerous (in fact, I think it contributed to a
bout of tendonitis). I'm sure he's knowledgeable, and I'm still a neophyte,
but a lot of his assertions seem dogmatic rather than reasoned (for example,
he implies that expensive shoes cause injuries...citing a correlation...but
anyone who has studied statistics knows that is a logical fallacy).

BUT: the frame-by-frame pictures of runners are very valuable, the
discussions of form and strength are great.His regimens are, IMO, intended
for very dedicated athletes and are not to be embarked upon lightly.

I own the book, I read the book, I use the book, I like the book ... but I
have some reservations about it and, for me, I am still looking for the
"ideal" training book.

My mileage does vary,
    -Chris in Red Stick-

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by Steve Freide » Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:13:10

Quote:


> > A very good response, but it did leave me with one question...Being a
> > beginning runner, is strength what they would want to build, or would
> > they be more better off trying to build endurance first?
> These two things are not mutually exclusive.  "Strength" is not a singular
> quality, but is very malleable to the needs of each trainee. All athletes,
> whatever their sport, can benefit from an intelligently designed weight
> training program.

Great minds think alike :)

-S-

 
 
 

a few beginner questions

Post by Mistress Krist » Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:51:22


Quote:


> > I suggest Michael Yessis' book "Explosive Running" for the theory and
> > practical application of strength training for runners.

> I like Yessis' book, too, but I would not consider it especially
appropriate
> for a beginning runner. IMO, he is writing for highly competitive or even
> elite athletes.

As a beginning runner (though experienced weight trainer) I actually found
it quite informative, particularly his discussion of the biomechanics of
running.

 He uses many terms (including his discussion of the parts of

Quote:
> the running stride) without ever carefully defining or explaining them --
> you can puzzle them out eventually, but a little better text and some
> well-drawn diagrams to go with the wonderful photos would have added
> tremendously to the value of the book, for me. Many of his exercises are
> difficult to do safely, especially the ones that aim to make one more
> "explosive."

Can you expand on this?  Which exercises in particular?

 And I'm also made a little uneasy by his advocacy of oxygenated

Quote:
> water as a recovery aid ... the physics/physiology seems a bit bizarre,
> IMHO.

Oh Lawsamighty, I must have missed that passage in the text. I assume it was
in the nutrition section I skipped.  IIRC, Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield jumped
on that boat too.

 And personally, I find that static stretches very helpful and, for me,

Quote:
> his dismissal of them is dangerous (in fact, I think it contributed to a
> bout of tendonitis). I'm sure he's knowledgeable, and I'm still a
neophyte,
> but a lot of his assertions seem dogmatic rather than reasoned (for
example,
> he implies that expensive shoes cause injuries...citing a
correlation...but
> anyone who has studied statistics knows that is a logical fallacy).

One thing I would have liked to have seen is a bibliography and his list of
citations. There is none provided, so unfortunately investigation of his
claims becomes difficult. However, after a first reading, his
recommendations seem pretty much in line with conventional sports science
literature.  Many sources are hesitant about static stretching and its
correlation to active flexibility (i.e. the ability to move through a range
of motion).

Quote:

> BUT: the frame-by-frame pictures of runners are very valuable, the
> discussions of form and strength are great.His regimens are, IMO, intended
> for very dedicated athletes and are not to be embarked upon lightly.

> I own the book, I read the book, I use the book, I like the book ... but I
> have some reservations about it and, for me, I am still looking for the
> "ideal" training book.

> My mileage does vary,
>     -Chris in Red Stick-

Krista

--
-------------------------
http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html