Ways to improve

Ways to improve

Post by Robert Grumbi » Fri, 13 Jul 2001 03:59:17


  Prompted somewhat by looking back at my logs after the somewhat down
performance last week.  But also just a generally good idea to
consider.  That is, what might the list of routes to improvement
look like.  For added fuel on the fire, in order of priority.

A start:

1) Train more consistently
  (e.g: Get out 5 days a week rather than 4, don't miss 2/3/4 consecutive
days, ...)

2) Train smarter
  e.g.,: balance slow versus fast versus middle, balance hard versus easy,
  ...

3) Train harder
  e.g.: Run more miles
        Run more of them fast (in number if not percent)
        Run more hills
        Run more track work

A) Sleep better
B) Eat better

i) Get better equipment

  Additions?  Reorderings?  Integrations?  (You'll notice that I was
too timid to put equipment in to the same sub-list as the training,
and the like).

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by BarryN » Fri, 13 Jul 2001 04:53:19


Quote:
>   Prompted somewhat by looking back at my logs after the somewhat down
> performance last week.  But also just a generally good idea to
> consider.  That is, what might the list of routes to improvement
> look like.  For added fuel on the fire, in order of priority.

> A start:

> 1) Train more consistently
>   (e.g: Get out 5 days a week rather than 4, don't miss 2/3/4 consecutive
> days, ...)

David Holt would tell you that the real benefits of a run only start after
the first 35 mins so if 'only' running around 30 miles a week then 4
days/week is better than 5 because you are running for longer periods of
time.

Quote:
> 2) Train smarter
>   e.g.,: balance slow versus fast versus middle, balance hard versus easy,
>   ...

No arguments here...

Quote:
> 3) Train harder
>   e.g.: Run more miles
>         Run more of them fast (in number if not percent)
>         Run more hills
>         Run more track work

...but make sure you have enough base mileage to support your harder
sessions.

Quote:
> A) Sleep better

Good point - I really need to do this too... although the hot weather isn't
helping.

Quote:
> B) Eat better

> i) Get better equipment

So long as whatever you use lets you run consistently without injury...
that's the important thing.

Quote:

>   Additions?  Reorderings?  Integrations?  (You'll notice that I was
> too timid to put equipment in to the same sub-list as the training,
> and the like).

I'd say (personally) I need to do more (well, any) strength training - but I
just don't enjoy it... maybe I should just force myself more...

Quote:
> --
> Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur

activities notes and links.
Quote:
> Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too
much
> evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than
they
> would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New

Sciences

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by Lorne Sund » Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:27:18


Quote:
> 1) Train more consistently
>   (e.g: Get out 5 days a week rather than 4, don't miss 2/3/4
>   consecutive
> days, ...)

Take the rest days, and rest on them.

Quote:
> 2) Train smarter
>   e.g.,: balance slow versus fast versus middle, balance hard versus
>   easy, ...

When sick or injured, back off, or take a zero for the day.  Quit believing
that a single workout will make or break the training schedule.  (I'm
famous for this, agonizing over a 4-mile run I might miss, as part of a 20
week, 800 mile marathon program)

Quote:
> 3) Train harder
>   e.g.: Run more miles
>         Run more of them fast (in number if not percent)
>         Run more hills
>         Run more track work

The "run more miles" is a resounding one for me.  Every mile I add to the
odometer, at any pace, has improved my times.  Jack Daniels - no such thing
as junk.

Quote:
> A) Sleep better

Yes Yes Yes.  

Quote:
> B) Eat better

Someone in this ng reported once that you gain 2 seconds per mile in the
marathon, for every pound you lose.  Every pound of fat, I suppose.

Good list Robert.
--
Lorne Sundby
Edmonton, Canada
(Come visit Aug 3-12, for the 2001 World Championships in Athletics.)

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by Brian Wethingto » Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:45:58

Um...why aren't the real benefits of running realized until after 35
minutes?  What are the "real" benefits?  I'm a new runner, jogger to tell
the truth, and I can barely make it past 35 minutes.  And I only go 3 miles
tops.  So I'm not getting any real benefits yet?  Oh man, do I ever have a
lot to learn!!


Quote:


> >   Prompted somewhat by looking back at my logs after the somewhat down
> > performance last week.  But also just a generally good idea to
> > consider.  That is, what might the list of routes to improvement
> > look like.  For added fuel on the fire, in order of priority.

> > A start:

> > 1) Train more consistently
> >   (e.g: Get out 5 days a week rather than 4, don't miss 2/3/4
consecutive
> > days, ...)

> David Holt would tell you that the real benefits of a run only start after
> the first 35 mins so if 'only' running around 30 miles a week then 4
> days/week is better than 5 because you are running for longer periods of
> time.

> > 2) Train smarter
> >   e.g.,: balance slow versus fast versus middle, balance hard versus
easy,
> >   ...

> No arguments here...

> > 3) Train harder
> >   e.g.: Run more miles
> >         Run more of them fast (in number if not percent)
> >         Run more hills
> >         Run more track work

> ...but make sure you have enough base mileage to support your harder
> sessions.

> > A) Sleep better

> Good point - I really need to do this too... although the hot weather
isn't
> helping.

> > B) Eat better

> > i) Get better equipment

> So long as whatever you use lets you run consistently without injury...
> that's the important thing.

> >   Additions?  Reorderings?  Integrations?  (You'll notice that I was
> > too timid to put equipment in to the same sub-list as the training,
> > and the like).

> I'd say (personally) I need to do more (well, any) strength training - but
I
> just don't enjoy it... maybe I should just force myself more...

> > --
> > Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur
> activities notes and links.
> > Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too
> much
> > evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than
> they
> > would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New
> Sciences

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by Lowtuc Zowt » Fri, 13 Jul 2001 20:39:03

Hi Robert G.
Keep it simple.
sorry about the less traing this week thou
yesterday.ran aside this babe both in red.
miles just seem to go by.
I want to do an ultra 50 k or 50 miles Hell be happy to finish a
marathon in hell  Mi.
www.danceswithdirt.com
Going to try the 50 mile. I have 2 fellorunners doing this Ray 50 mile,
He carried the p o w m i a for 3 000 miles at mike may  races. I beat
him by 19 min in trailmarathon thou I ran 20 min late and was told he
stayed around the bend. ha ha ha.Sandy 50 k  Noway 50 miles you. ha ha
she is fast. ha ha  from gym.
babe 4.5 in arizona school. something. later

KISS,

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by BarryN » Sat, 14 Jul 2001 02:16:56


Quote:
> Um...why aren't the real benefits of running realized until after 35
> minutes?  What are the "real" benefits?  I'm a new runner, jogger to tell
> the truth, and I can barely make it past 35 minutes.  And I only go 3
miles
> tops.  So I'm not getting any real benefits yet?  Oh man, do I ever have a
> lot to learn!!

You can read David Holt's stuff at http://home.sprynet.com/~holtrun

Broadly speaking the theory is that longer runs boost the number of
mitochondria in the muscle cells, train the muscles to burn fat more
efficiently and help recruit fast twitch muscle cells to help with slow
twitch tasks (eg. distance running). DH suggests this only starts to happen
significantly after about 35 mins of running. For this reason if you're
"only" running about 4 hours a week it may be better to divide it over 4
runs rather than 5.

Of course, you do get a lot of benefits from running under 35 mins - for a
start you get fit enough to run over 35 mins :-)

--
Regards, Barry
Running & Stuff: http://distancerunner.tmfweb.nl
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have training logs to keep; and
miles to run before I sleep".

Quote:





> > >   Prompted somewhat by looking back at my logs after the somewhat down
> > > performance last week.  But also just a generally good idea to
> > > consider.  That is, what might the list of routes to improvement
> > > look like.  For added fuel on the fire, in order of priority.

> > > A start:

> > > 1) Train more consistently
> > >   (e.g: Get out 5 days a week rather than 4, don't miss 2/3/4
> consecutive
> > > days, ...)

> > David Holt would tell you that the real benefits of a run only start
after
> > the first 35 mins so if 'only' running around 30 miles a week then 4
> > days/week is better than 5 because you are running for longer periods of
> > time.

> > > 2) Train smarter
> > >   e.g.,: balance slow versus fast versus middle, balance hard versus
> easy,
> > >   ...

> > No arguments here...

> > > 3) Train harder
> > >   e.g.: Run more miles
> > >         Run more of them fast (in number if not percent)
> > >         Run more hills
> > >         Run more track work

> > ...but make sure you have enough base mileage to support your harder
> > sessions.

> > > A) Sleep better

> > Good point - I really need to do this too... although the hot weather
> isn't
> > helping.

> > > B) Eat better

> > > i) Get better equipment

> > So long as whatever you use lets you run consistently without injury...
> > that's the important thing.

> > >   Additions?  Reorderings?  Integrations?  (You'll notice that I was
> > > too timid to put equipment in to the same sub-list as the training,
> > > and the like).

> > I'd say (personally) I need to do more (well, any) strength training -
but
> I
> > just don't enjoy it... maybe I should just force myself more...

> > > --
> > > Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur
> > activities notes and links.
> > > Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with
too
> > much
> > > evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated
than
> > they
> > > would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New
> > Sciences

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by Brian Wethingto » Sat, 14 Jul 2001 02:45:38

:-) :-) :-)!  Well, I'm shooting for at least an hour by Christmas.


Quote:


> > Um...why aren't the real benefits of running realized until after 35
> > minutes?  What are the "real" benefits?  I'm a new runner, jogger to
tell
> > the truth, and I can barely make it past 35 minutes.  And I only go 3
> miles
> > tops.  So I'm not getting any real benefits yet?  Oh man, do I ever have
a
> > lot to learn!!

> You can read David Holt's stuff at http://home.sprynet.com/~holtrun

> Broadly speaking the theory is that longer runs boost the number of
> mitochondria in the muscle cells, train the muscles to burn fat more
> efficiently and help recruit fast twitch muscle cells to help with slow
> twitch tasks (eg. distance running). DH suggests this only starts to
happen
> significantly after about 35 mins of running. For this reason if you're
> "only" running about 4 hours a week it may be better to divide it over 4
> runs rather than 5.

> Of course, you do get a lot of benefits from running under 35 mins - for a
> start you get fit enough to run over 35 mins :-)

> --
> Regards, Barry
> Running & Stuff: http://distancerunner.tmfweb.nl
> "The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have training logs to keep;
and
> miles to run before I sleep".





> > > >   Prompted somewhat by looking back at my logs after the somewhat
down
> > > > performance last week.  But also just a generally good idea to
> > > > consider.  That is, what might the list of routes to improvement
> > > > look like.  For added fuel on the fire, in order of priority.

> > > > A start:

> > > > 1) Train more consistently
> > > >   (e.g: Get out 5 days a week rather than 4, don't miss 2/3/4
> > consecutive
> > > > days, ...)

> > > David Holt would tell you that the real benefits of a run only start
> after
> > > the first 35 mins so if 'only' running around 30 miles a week then 4
> > > days/week is better than 5 because you are running for longer periods
of
> > > time.

> > > > 2) Train smarter
> > > >   e.g.,: balance slow versus fast versus middle, balance hard versus
> > easy,
> > > >   ...

> > > No arguments here...

> > > > 3) Train harder
> > > >   e.g.: Run more miles
> > > >         Run more of them fast (in number if not percent)
> > > >         Run more hills
> > > >         Run more track work

> > > ...but make sure you have enough base mileage to support your harder
> > > sessions.

> > > > A) Sleep better

> > > Good point - I really need to do this too... although the hot weather
> > isn't
> > > helping.

> > > > B) Eat better

> > > > i) Get better equipment

> > > So long as whatever you use lets you run consistently without
injury...
> > > that's the important thing.

> > > >   Additions?  Reorderings?  Integrations?  (You'll notice that I was
> > > > too timid to put equipment in to the same sub-list as the training,
> > > > and the like).

> > > I'd say (personally) I need to do more (well, any) strength training -
> but
> > I
> > > just don't enjoy it... maybe I should just force myself more...

> > > > --
> > > > Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur
> > > activities notes and links.
> > > > Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with
> too
> > > much
> > > > evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated
> than
> > > they
> > > > would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New
> > > Sciences

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by Robert Grumbi » Sat, 14 Jul 2001 05:48:40

Quote:

>Of course, you do get a lot of benefits from running under 35 mins - for a
>start you get fit enough to run over 35 mins :-)

  I think sprinters and middle distance runners who never run as long
as 35 minutes at a time somehow find benefit to the practice.  

(Granted many middle distance runners do run longer, some significantly
so, but I recall some world class miler of the early 80's being reported
as never running more than 4 miles at a time.  I doubt he was doing them at
over 9 minutes a mile.)

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by Tony Muelle » Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:10:16



Quote:
> Um...why aren't the real benefits of running realized until after 35
> minutes?  What are the "real" benefits?  I'm a new runner, jogger to tell
> the truth, and I can barely make it past 35 minutes.  And I only go 3 miles
> tops.  So I'm not getting any real benefits yet?  Oh man, do I ever have a
> lot to learn!!

Don't worry Brian, you are doing fine. The over 35 minute time thing is
for people that can hit this easily and consistently. Believe it or not,
if you stick with running for a while you may find yourself doing this
easily.

Tony Mueller

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by rick » Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:40:30

Quote:
> David Holt would tell you that the real benefits of a run only start after
> the first 35 mins so if 'only' running around 30 miles a week then 4
> days/week is better than 5 because you are running for longer periods of
> time.

There have been several controlled studies that the "fitness" benefits of running-
weight control, heart rates, cholestoral- only cares about the aerobic calories
per week, not how they are distributed.  You need to burn about 1,000 aerobic
calories a week or ten miles for a typical ***.  These can be ten one miles
or two five miles.

Other considerations- such as time schedule, or improving competitiveness,
mean different programs.

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by David Forbe » Sat, 14 Jul 2001 23:52:30

Could try reincarnation as a Kenyan/Ethiopian as a last resort.
I am just attempting to get back to running after injury caused
primarily I believe from changing from my Mizuno Wave Creations to
Mizuno Wave Riders.  The difference in cushioning seems to have had a
negative effect on my knees.  Also having ones child thrown out of the
back window of rolling car tends to affect ones ability to get out and
run.

Quote:

>   Prompted somewhat by looking back at my logs after the somewhat down
> performance last week.  But also just a generally good idea to
> consider.  That is, what might the list of routes to improvement
> look like.  For added fuel on the fire, in order of priority.

> A start:

> 1) Train more consistently
>   (e.g: Get out 5 days a week rather than 4, don't miss 2/3/4 consecutive
> days, ...)

> 2) Train smarter
>   e.g.,: balance slow versus fast versus middle, balance hard versus easy,
>   ...

> 3) Train harder
>   e.g.: Run more miles
>         Run more of them fast (in number if not percent)
>         Run more hills
>         Run more track work

> A) Sleep better
> B) Eat better

> i) Get better equipment

>   Additions?  Reorderings?  Integrations?  (You'll notice that I was
> too timid to put equipment in to the same sub-list as the training,
> and the like).

> --
> Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
> Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
> evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
> would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

--
Regards,
Dave
**************************************
I'd love to think that there's an end
just waiting right around the bend,
but every turn's a tunnel.
       I descend
I'm the running man...
Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key,
The Last Man to Fly, 1991
**************************************
 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by BarryN » Sat, 14 Jul 2001 06:07:44


Quote:


> >Of course, you do get a lot of benefits from running under 35 mins - for
a
> >start you get fit enough to run over 35 mins :-)

>   I think sprinters and middle distance runners who never run as long
> as 35 minutes at a time somehow find benefit to the practice.

> (Granted many middle distance runners do run longer, some significantly
> so, but I recall some world class miler of the early 80's being reported
> as never running more than 4 miles at a time.  I doubt he was doing them
at
> over 9 minutes a mile.)

Possibly true, but sprinting is a different sport to long distance running -
long distance cycling, rowing or swimming probably have more in common.

What I'm suggesting is that running significantly longer than the 35 minute
mark in every training session will help you be a better long distance
runner than more frequent shorter sessions will. Sprinters and middle
distance runners aren't trying to become good long distance runners.

--
Regards, Barry
Running & Stuff: http://distancerunner.tmfweb.nl
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have training logs to keep; and
miles to run before I sleep".

Quote:
> --
> Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur

activities notes and links.
Quote:
> Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too
much
> evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than
they
> would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New

Sciences
 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by Sam » Sun, 15 Jul 2001 01:33:01

Outside of something totally outlandish that would lead to injury, I  think
that equipment would make the smallest change in performance compared to the
other options.

Having worked with cyclists and triathletes (and still involved in the
former), I have seen so many people try to buy performance through
equipment.  Cyclists and triathletes will spend hundreds of dollars to shave
a few grams off the bike weight, when they could spend that money on a coach
or save the money and train a bit smarter or longer or harder depending on
the situation.


Quote:
> Could try reincarnation as a Kenyan/Ethiopian as a last resort.
> I am just attempting to get back to running after injury caused
> primarily I believe from changing from my Mizuno Wave Creations to
> Mizuno Wave Riders.  The difference in cushioning seems to have had a
> negative effect on my knees.  Also having ones child thrown out of the
> back window of rolling car tends to affect ones ability to get out and
> run.


> >   Prompted somewhat by looking back at my logs after the somewhat down
> > performance last week.  But also just a generally good idea to
> > consider.  That is, what might the list of routes to improvement
> > look like.  For added fuel on the fire, in order of priority.

> > A start:

> > 1) Train more consistently
> >   (e.g: Get out 5 days a week rather than 4, don't miss 2/3/4
consecutive
> > days, ...)

> > 2) Train smarter
> >   e.g.,: balance slow versus fast versus middle, balance hard versus
easy,
> >   ...

> > 3) Train harder
> >   e.g.: Run more miles
> >         Run more of them fast (in number if not percent)
> >         Run more hills
> >         Run more track work

> > A) Sleep better
> > B) Eat better

> > i) Get better equipment

> >   Additions?  Reorderings?  Integrations?  (You'll notice that I was
> > too timid to put equipment in to the same sub-list as the training,
> > and the like).

> > --
> > Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur

activities notes and links.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> > Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too
much
> > evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than
they
> > would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New
Sciences

> --
> Regards,
> Dave
> **************************************
> I'd love to think that there's an end
> just waiting right around the bend,
> but every turn's a tunnel.
>        I descend
> I'm the running man...
> Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key,
> The Last Man to Fly, 1991
> **************************************

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by BarryN » Sun, 15 Jul 2001 02:00:40


Quote:
> > David Holt would tell you that the real benefits of a run only start
after
> > the first 35 mins so if 'only' running around 30 miles a week then 4
> > days/week is better than 5 because you are running for longer periods of
> > time.

> There have been several controlled studies that the "fitness" benefits of
running-
> weight control, heart rates, cholestoral- only cares about the aerobic
calories
> per week, not how they are distributed.  You need to burn about 1,000
aerobic
> calories a week or ten miles for a typical ***.  These can be ten one
miles
> or two five miles.

> Other considerations- such as time schedule, or improving competitiveness,
> mean different programs.

I guess I should have clarified more what I meant by "real benefits" - I was
speaking of performance and endurance improvements. Granted, if you're
running purely for health/fitness considerations then 3 or 4 sessions of 30
mins a week is fine and anything more probably has drastically diminishing
returns.

--
Regards, Barry
Running & Stuff: http://SportToday.org/
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have training logs to keep; and
miles to run before I sleep".

 
 
 

Ways to improve

Post by Doug Frees » Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:20:34

Quote:

> I guess I should have clarified more what I meant by "real benefits" - I was
> speaking of performance and endurance improvements. Granted, if you're
> running purely for health/fitness considerations then 3 or 4 sessions of 30
> mins a week is fine and anything more probably has drastically diminishing
> returns.

I guess I must be drastically diminished... but it
feels sooo good. :)

--
Caveat Lector
Doug Freese