Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Richard Barre » Sat, 23 Sep 1995 04:00:00


Any doubts what would happen if a mens only race appeared? Like Boston maybe?
Maybe I'll enter a womens only race as K Barrett :)

I believe womens only races are needed simply to sort out the competition
for women. (Others can argue what horrible people men are and how we ruin
everything we get near, and although I'll get a nice chuckle out of it, I
certainly won't pay any attention to it.) In most mixed races, women just can't
_see_ each other. Of course the simply solution is to run men and women in
separate "heats", as is done in track and most cross country racing. Of course
race directors will have problems with that one w.r.t. logistics. So again, if a
mens only race is discrimination, then why is a womens only not?

Richard

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Abhay Thatt » Sat, 23 Sep 1995 04:00:00

Source: Seattle Times, E2, 9/21/95.

        Dan Dobson's lawsuit threat has ended the 10 K Bonne Bell women's only
running race in Minnesota.  He said it was unfair that men could not take
part.  The race director, Sue Wurl, said

"Women run differently when men are around, and act differently."  "A lot
of women will run our race simply because it is real non threatening
being in an all-women's event."

**********************************************************************

Now my confessions as an avid runner and an even more avid admirer of the
female form.

I confess to closely admiring the female forms as they glide past during
my run.

I confess to having decided on my running venue/s depending on
where the attractive women might be.

Other than this, I have never threatened any woman runner (or male runner
for that matter).

SO WHAT THE HELL IS THIS DOBSON GAL WHINING ABOUT?  Inputs from female
runners especially needed.

***********************************************************************
****I am GodzGift.  I can be reached at 206.632.9540.  Although what I
opine is meant for entertainment purposes only, It is likely that
ordinary humans can glean great wisdom from my messages, if they
will pay assiduous attention, and perform the necessary diligences****

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Abhay Thatt » Sat, 23 Sep 1995 04:00:00

        I thought serious women runners would have *preferred* mixed
races so that they get a higher level of competition.  

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Chuck Maide » Sun, 24 Sep 1995 04:00:00

Quote:

>Source: Seattle Times, E2, 9/21/95.

>    Dan Dobson's lawsuit threat has ended the 10 K Bonne Bell women's only
>running race in Minnesota.  He said it was unfair that men could not take
>part.  The race director, Sue Wurl, said

>"Women run differently when men are around, and act differently."  "A lot
>of women will run our race simply because it is real non threatening
>being in an all-women's event."

This is perfectly fine.  I agree with her.  And men too act differently when
women are around ... mostly they act like 12 year old jerks.

There's nothing wrong with an all-women's event ... or an all-men's event.
Actually, there's alot of strong evidence these days that women excel when men
are not present to drown out women with their assertiveness. (My wife is always
accusing me of this.)

Now, let's talk about that Citadel thing ... hmmm, nah ... let's not.

        ~~~     Chuck Maiden, Pittsburgh, PA

---oOO--(_)--OOo----------------------------

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Richard Mobu » Sun, 24 Sep 1995 04:00:00


Quote:

>Subject: Re: Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.
>Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:20:41 -0700
>        I thought serious women runners would have *preferred* mixed
>races so that they get a higher level of competition.

I think what goes around comes around, and when litigation takes the place of
common sense and decency, only lawyers win.
Exclusion isn't always bad. "I never want to join a club that would have me."

Regards,

"Countries used to be judged on weapons and money. Now it's moving bits"

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Claude H. Sinclair, J » Mon, 25 Sep 1995 04:00:00


Quote:
>Path: nntp.sunbelt.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!carson.u.washington.edu!arthatte

I direct Women's only events and Men's only events.  I also direct many races
open to all runners.  It seems that there is always someone who wants to sue
for one reason or another.  I had a wheelchair athelete wanting to sue me
because he could not complete in one of my trail races.  Let's get real!  The
Bozo who had the Bonnie Bell race cancelled should go a step further and enter
a beauty contest.  Maybe he should try to get in the Women's Marathon Trials
in Columbia, SC in 96.  Where is the line drawn?

Claude Sinclair

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Abhay Thatt » Mon, 25 Sep 1995 04:00:00

Quote:

> I direct Women's only events and Men's only events.  I also direct many races
> open to all runners.  It seems that there is always someone who wants to sue
> for one reason or another.  I had a wheelchair athelete wanting to sue me
> because he could not complete in one of my trail races.  Let's get real!  The
> Bozo who had the Bonnie Bell race cancelled should go a step further and enter
> a beauty contest.  Maybe he should try to get in the Women's Marathon Trials
> in Columbia, SC in 96.  Where is the line drawn?

> Claude Sinclair

Actually, in these days of so called women's equality, maybe we should
abolish women's sports or men's sports, and have only one division: the
human race.  The result of course will be that men will win all the
races and sports prizes.  Women will complain.  TOUGH.  A merit based
system of reward necessarily discriminates against those lesser qualified.

In the work environment, we do not distinguish between male and female
employees.  Why do so in sport?  I frankly get bored watching women's
sports 'cos the standard is so low.  This applies to almost any sport
except long distance swimming and a few others.

Anyway I frankly think many of the women long distance runners look
sickly and anemic.  Nature did not intend for women to have such a low
body fat content.  It is unhealthy and unattractive.  Women should look
like women!!!  I'm gonna make sure my daughter, if I have one, does not
run all day and develop a skin and bones look.  (I am myself a very regular
runner.)

You may say, Abhay, that is their choice; but I retort, the market has
been cooked so that the basis of gender is given undue and unnecessary
weightage.  

You may say, Abhay, women are weaker and less fit than men, so they need
a separate division.  I retort, I am not as good an athlete as Todd
Williams, I should have my own group/class.  Also a special class for
persons with thick glasses like mine which get sweaty and loose in races and
which in a recent race on Alki Beach in Seattle got fogged over so bad I was
rendered blind for about 25 seconds.  YES: WHERE WILL THE LINE BE DRAWN?

Women in Wimbledon for instance get almost as much money as men even when
the 100 ranked male could beat Graf 6-0, 6-0.  Similar with running.  The
present system of segregating men and women's division is economically
inefficient, unduly discriminatory and leads to a suboptimal social welfare
position.  (A little economics terminology here).

Whys should a woman who finishes 10 K in 33:00 get loads of prizes while
a man with the same time is left twiddling his thumbs at the prize
distribution?

My idea will result in women specializing in activities in which they may
have a competitive edge over men (beauty contests, as you say) or other
activities which I am unable to specify at this moment.

                (THIS IS NOT A TROLL!!!!)

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I'm just throwing some ideas out.  Thanks.
And happing running (women included.)

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Warr » Mon, 25 Sep 1995 04:00:00

In article

Quote:

> Actually, in these days of so called women's equality, maybe we should
> abolish women's sports or men's sports, and have only one division: the
> human race.  The result of course will be that men will win all the
> races and sports prizes.  Women will complain.  TOUGH.  A merit based
> system of reward necessarily discriminates against those lesser qualified.

I suppose you think we shouldn't have age group classes either for the
same reasons? Let the 12-year olds and 50-year olds compete against the
25-year olds, eh?

Quote:
> You may say, Abhay, women are weaker and less fit than men, so they need
> a separate division.  I retort, I am not as good an athlete as Todd
> Williams, I should have my own group/class.  

There is a big difference between two male ***s competing against each
other, and a male *** competing with a female ***. A female
world-class athlete is as good as she can be within the psyiological
limits of being a woman. As are the men. I suppose you don't appreciate
high school or college athletes, because they're not as good as the pros.
How about wheelchair athletes?

Quote:
>My idea will result in women specializing in activities in which they may
> have a competitive edge over men (beauty contests, as you say) or other
> activities which I am unable to specify at this moment.

>                 (THIS IS NOT A TROLL!!!!)

Then perhaps your caveman attitudes label *you* as a troll. Welcome to the
1900's in the civilized world, Abhay. If you are married, I hope she
enjoys cooking, cleaning, and having babies. Women certainly have a
competitive edge there, don't they?

-Warren

BTW, I see by your address that you are perhaps an educator at U of
Washington? Let's hope you're only teaching car repair, lawn mowing, or
other "male-oriented" subjects.

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Kerry Anders » Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:00:00

I remember in a race running by a group of women spectactors shouting "Go women go!".  In a knee-jerk reaction, I said out loud, "...and if I were shouting 'Go men go!', I'd be hauled in front of the human right commission". After this, one rather embarrassed woman apologetically shouted "Go men go". :)

Kerry

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Scott Sm » Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:00:00

In article

Quote:

>  Dan Dobson's lawsuit threat has ended the 10 K Bonne Bell women's only
> running race in Minnesota.  He said it was unfair that men could not take
> part.

We have a local fun run for kids under 12. It brings out a lot of kids
who wouldn't otherwise run and lets them run in an environment which is
supportive rather than competitive. Perhaps Dan Dobson would like to
sue the organizers of this race since it unfairly discriminates against
his age (assuming he is at least physically older than 12).

I'm surprised by the neanderthal replies in this thread. Prize money
and separate tours for women, for example, aren't fueled by a sense of
fairness
so much as by a sense of marketing.

The Bonne Belle folks shouldn't cancel their race, they should just
allow
men to enter without changing the name from "women's only". I doubt
that
Dan Dobson will run it. Some men will, and some of those will help
create
the supportive atmosphere the organizers seek. If men act to disrupt
the
event, perhaps the affected women (likely an overwhelming fraction of
the
female running community) will boycott any support of community running
events for a year or so. In my community, and I suspect in others,
that means quite a few events simply wouldn't occur.

cheers,
scott smay

/Everything I know is wrong./

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by EarthnMa » Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:00:00

I once ran a Baltimore MD race on the St. Patrick's Day Parade route,
which was lined with folk who normal don't turn out for runners, and
overheard someone in the crowd saying to a friend "Why do these slow ones
keep running: surely they know they can't possibly win?"

The thing that attracts me - and, I think, most others - to running is
that success is not reserved for the elite. I'll never catch a fast male
in my 40-45 age group but I compete with the best women of that age and on
a good day I can outrun the top 60 year old men. I listen to the
ages/gender group results to check my time against my chosen rivals!

Males who resent the prizes  awarded to slower members of other categories
should consider that in a truly competitive world, such as the former E.
German sports system, most of them would never even qualify to run. Nobody
would volunteer to organize events for all-comers. Instead, the whole
country would watch a handful of elite runners on TV. Life is about
participating and achieving personal goals; it's sad to waste it in a
testosterone-driven effort to push others off their modest pedastals.

Declan De Paor

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Abhay Thatt » Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:00:00

        I would much rather run a race in which the competition was
severe, and I would place poorly but achieve a decent time, than run in a
race where I thought I would get a medal due to a lack of competition.  
If the women will keep this in mind there will be no desire to ban men
from races.
        The issue of kids races is totally different.  
        What if we had races segregated by nationality "Kenyans are
better than Canadians" or by the % of slow twitch fiber.  That would be
palpably ridiculous.  
        The women who really like to run will run in mixed events.  The
pretenders and feminist separatists will complain about male oppression
eg "they jostled us at the start."  Well, what if I said the sight of a
pretty woman runner drove me unable to concentrate on the race.
        There's gotta be some limit to this separate category thing.
        I rest my case.
 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Abhay Thatt » Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:00:00


Quote:

> :  The issue of kids races is totally different.  

>    Why??

Because they have to be exposed to many different kinds of sporting
activities.  Because playing among grown ups may intimidate them and
injure them and they will not learn much.

Quote:
> :  What if we had races segregated by nationality "Kenyans are
> : better than Canadians"

>    We do! I believe they are called the Olympics.

A clarrification.  I meant "races in which Kenyans compete only against
Kenyans" 'cos they are supposedly better than Canadians.  In the
Olympics, it's not like that.

Quote:

> :  There's gotta be some limit to this separate category thing.

>    Why should there be a limit to the division of sports? The essence of
> sport is the competition with one's self which if often excelled by
> competing against other people. It doesn't matter if you are competing
> against the best in the world or your next door neighbor, it is that
> competition that is exciting, to see people striving to do their best.
> If it were the case that only the best were rightfully able to compete,
> everybody would compete together in one event. Taking it to
> your extreme, there would be one world wide event held ONCE! Why even seperate
> it into different sports? Just figure the best event to determine the best
> athlete and hold it one time. Now you may say that is ridiculous but it is
> just going farther on the 'less segregation' balance. Personally, I prefer
> my kids, 4 & 5 years old, to be able to play soccer against other 4 & 5 year
> olds and not have to play against the World Cup team.

All I am saying is that the anti discrimination civil rights rules should
now be applied to sports to make it gender neutral.  A publicly announced
race should not be allowed to exclude ***S based on their gender, or
'cos a few persons in one gender FEEL that the other genderr may "harm"
them, when there is no firm basis for this belief.

It does not mean we should have just one sport.  Also, your kids should
not play soccer withh grown ups 'cos they might get hurt.  Running-at
least most road racing-is not a contact sport, like basketball or
soccer.  There is no rreason to accede to the silly wishes paranoias and
fears of the woman who banned men from the Bonne Belle road race.

Let's make running more inclusive, not less so.

PS If any women are reading this debate: what was that Wurl woman scared
of when she banned men?

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Don Kirkm » Wed, 27 Sep 1995 04:00:00

Quote:

>Actually, in these days of so called women's equality, maybe we should
>abolish women's sports or men's sports, and have only one division: the
>human race.  The result of course will be that men will win all the
>races and sports prizes.  Women will complain.  TOUGH.  A merit based
>system of reward necessarily discriminates against those lesser qualified.

[lots snipped--irrelevant to my post]

There've already been a lot of responses to this thread, but it looks to me
like a lot are confusing or ignoring the fact that there are really two
issues being discussed--men-only or women-only races and age/sex divisions
within races.  I don't have a problem with gender-based competition, for
reasons explained in a lot of posts, but would have a big problem if every
race was _only_ open competition.  For instance, I'm not a competitive
runner, even in my age group, but a world best 5- or 10-k in my age group
still might be in the second or third hundred finishers in an average sized
race.  Where's the equity (and the motivation to keep trying) if the
competition is always dominated by men in the 20-30 age group?  All the
rest of us train as hard and race as hard, within our physical limitations.

Don Kirkman
Cerritos, CA

If I had a life I'd be having a mid-life crisis

 
 
 

Man's Bias Lawsuit Ends Woman's Run.

Post by Ray Charbonnea » Wed, 27 Sep 1995 04:00:00

It's simple.  If women can force themselves into a men's only club, or
race, or whatever, they shouldn't be surprised when men decide that it's
only fair if guys get to run in Bonnie Bells.

It all comes back to the fact that it is impossible to codify good
manners, morals, etc....  Once we allowed people to exclude others, now
we don't.  There is no easy way to set up rules to cover the grey areas,
and we all know that there is always someone who will be offended and
challange the limits, no matter what.

-Ray

Quote:

>Jeeze - whatever happened to live and let live.  I'm not just referring
>to your post Ray, but this whole thread.  If there is a race locally for
>women only - or whatever - why does that have to be a problem?  There is
>bound to be another race nearby or close to the same date.
>Rob Ridley, Cochrane, Alberta    

--
Ray Charbonneau    |
MIT Library Systems|    3:09:59