Question About Jack Daniels Method

Question About Jack Daniels Method

Post by SwStudi » Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:27:19


I have been really getting into the "Daniels Running
Formula", and I know a lot of you have read it, and it is
highly regarded. I agree that it is good, but have one
question regarding the VDOT values.

Upon estimating my VDOT on his chart, I immediately
zeroed in on the 5k times, which I know best for myself.
My PR is 19:14, so that made my VDOT 52 (a 17:17 5k,
the closest match). I then looked at all the corresponding
distances to see how accurate it was - and lo and behold,
it's almost dead-on for predicting my 10k time, 1 mile
time (I'm a *little* faster), and all the rest..... up to
marathon. You see, I've never ran one, but I have intense
interest in what my *expected* pace should be, as I AM
running one in 5 weeks.

The Daniels VDOT values peg me to run a 3:04 (or thereabouts)
marathon. That is HALF AN HOUR longer that my own
predictions, based on my long runs. I often do a 30k as the
long one, and have tried this distance at different paces. My
experience is as follows:

30km in 2:30: This is my "easy" pace.. straight 5:00 km's (or
                          8:00 miles). I am sure I could run the marathon
                          at this pace and finish in 3:30. It wouldn't be
easy,
                          but it wouldn't be a disaster, either. When I run
                          at this pace, I start getting a bit sore after
about
                          24-28km, but cardio is totally fine.

30km in 2:23: Although this represents only a 15 seconds per
                          km increase in speed, I am not sure if I could
keep
                          that up for the full 42km of a marathon. I find I
am
                          fine for the first 15km-20km, then fatigue makes
                          the pace start the slowing process. Going at this
pace
                          equals a 3:20 marathon, still WAYYY off my VDOT.
                          I HAVE done this time, however - I was really
pushing
                          it at the end. Facing 12 more km's would have
scared
                          me at that pace.

30 km in 2:13: I've never done it. I think the fastest I have ran a
                           fairly significant distance is about 14km in an
hour(that's
                           8.7 miles) I KNOW I cannot run much faster yet,
as
                           I have yet to break 40:00 for 10km. Yet this time
                           (2:13/30km) is the speed I should be able to
maintain
                           for the full marathon.

Daniels predicts I can run a marathon running 4:17 minute km's.
Since his predictions of all my other times are eerily accurate, I
wonder if I am short-changing myself, somehow... I *know* it's a
prediction - not fact.... but it seems odd that he's almost half an
hour off.

David (in Ontario)

--
--
 :*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
 "Nunc scio quit sit amor."
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.

 
 
 

Question About Jack Daniels Method

Post by Steve Freide » Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:11:23

Quote:

> ...it seems odd that he's almost half an hour off.

I'd take Dr. Daniels' word for this and go out at a pace that will get
you to the finish line in the time he predicts.

-S-

 
 
 

Question About Jack Daniels Method

Post by th.. » Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:37:44

Daniels talks about equivalent performances at a given VDOT.
Your mileage may vary based on training and physiological
makeup.  IMO, it is too late to radical change your up coming
marathon plan.  You should have been doing pace runs for your
training and should not deviate too much from that pace until after
20 miles.   If you feel great at that point, go for it.
For your next marathon, start training from day 1 at the faster
pace
good luck
George
Quote:

> I have been really getting into the "Daniels Running
> Formula", and I know a lot of you have read it, and it is
> highly regarded. I agree that it is good, but have one
> question regarding the VDOT values.

> Upon estimating my VDOT on his chart, I immediately
> zeroed in on the 5k times, which I know best for myself.
> My PR is 19:14, so that made my VDOT 52 (a 17:17 5k,
> the closest match). I then looked at all the corresponding
> distances to see how accurate it was - and lo and behold,
> it's almost dead-on for predicting my 10k time, 1 mile
> time (I'm a *little* faster), and all the rest..... up to
> marathon. You see, I've never ran one, but I have intense
> interest in what my *expected* pace should be, as I AM
> running one in 5 weeks.

> The Daniels VDOT values peg me to run a 3:04 (or thereabouts)
> marathon. That is HALF AN HOUR longer that my own
> predictions, based on my long runs. I often do a 30k as the
> long one, and have tried this distance at different paces. My
> experience is as follows:

> 30km in 2:30: This is my "easy" pace.. straight 5:00 km's (or
>                           8:00 miles). I am sure I could run the marathon
>                           at this pace and finish in 3:30. It wouldn't be
> easy,
>                           but it wouldn't be a disaster, either. When I run
>                           at this pace, I start getting a bit sore after
> about
>                           24-28km, but cardio is totally fine.

> 30km in 2:23: Although this represents only a 15 seconds per
>                           km increase in speed, I am not sure if I could
> keep
>                           that up for the full 42km of a marathon. I find I
> am
>                           fine for the first 15km-20km, then fatigue makes
>                           the pace start the slowing process. Going at this
> pace
>                           equals a 3:20 marathon, still WAYYY off my VDOT.
>                           I HAVE done this time, however - I was really
> pushing
>                           it at the end. Facing 12 more km's would have
> scared
>                           me at that pace.

> 30 km in 2:13: I've never done it. I think the fastest I have ran a
>                            fairly significant distance is about 14km in an
> hour(that's
>                            8.7 miles) I KNOW I cannot run much faster yet,
> as
>                            I have yet to break 40:00 for 10km. Yet this time
>                            (2:13/30km) is the speed I should be able to
> maintain
>                            for the full marathon.

> Daniels predicts I can run a marathon running 4:17 minute km's.
> Since his predictions of all my other times are eerily accurate, I
> wonder if I am short-changing myself, somehow... I *know* it's a
> prediction - not fact.... but it seems odd that he's almost half an
> hour off.

> David (in Ontario)

> --
> --
>  :*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
>  "Nunc scio quit sit amor."
> .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.


 
 
 

Question About Jack Daniels Method

Post by Eric Wel » Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:28:12

As I recall, the Daniel's VDOT tables show your equivalent potential at
various distances.  Your 19:14 5k indicates you have the POTENTIAL to run a
3:04 marathon.  You still need to be properly trainined for a marathon
before you can reach that potential.

If you are only 5 weeks from your marathon, DO NOT attempt to run faster
just because you read something in a book.  Learn from your recent training.
If 8:00/m is a comfortable pace, start at that pace.  The first half of the
marathon should feel very easy (if not, you're in trouble).

I made the mistake (twice) of going out too fast in an attempt to maintain a
given pace.  My most successful (fast & enjoyable) marathon was when I ran
by feel and relaxed for the first 16 miles.


Quote:
> I have been really getting into the "Daniels Running
> Formula", and I know a lot of you have read it, and it is
> highly regarded. I agree that it is good, but have one
> question regarding the VDOT values.

> Upon estimating my VDOT on his chart, I immediately
> zeroed in on the 5k times, which I know best for myself.
> My PR is 19:14, so that made my VDOT 52 (a 17:17 5k,
> the closest match). I then looked at all the corresponding
> distances to see how accurate it was - and lo and behold,
> it's almost dead-on for predicting my 10k time, 1 mile
> time (I'm a *little* faster), and all the rest..... up to
> marathon. You see, I've never ran one, but I have intense
> interest in what my *expected* pace should be, as I AM
> running one in 5 weeks.

> The Daniels VDOT values peg me to run a 3:04 (or thereabouts)
> marathon. That is HALF AN HOUR longer that my own
> predictions, based on my long runs. I often do a 30k as the
> long one, and have tried this distance at different paces. My
> experience is as follows:

> 30km in 2:30: This is my "easy" pace.. straight 5:00 km's (or
>                           8:00 miles). I am sure I could run the marathon
>                           at this pace and finish in 3:30. It wouldn't be
> easy,
>                           but it wouldn't be a disaster, either. When I
run
>                           at this pace, I start getting a bit sore after
> about
>                           24-28km, but cardio is totally fine.

> 30km in 2:23: Although this represents only a 15 seconds per
>                           km increase in speed, I am not sure if I could
> keep
>                           that up for the full 42km of a marathon. I find
I
> am
>                           fine for the first 15km-20km, then fatigue makes
>                           the pace start the slowing process. Going at
this
> pace
>                           equals a 3:20 marathon, still WAYYY off my VDOT.
>                           I HAVE done this time, however - I was really
> pushing
>                           it at the end. Facing 12 more km's would have
> scared
>                           me at that pace.

> 30 km in 2:13: I've never done it. I think the fastest I have ran a
>                            fairly significant distance is about 14km in an
> hour(that's
>                            8.7 miles) I KNOW I cannot run much faster yet,
> as
>                            I have yet to break 40:00 for 10km. Yet this
time
>                            (2:13/30km) is the speed I should be able to
> maintain
>                            for the full marathon.

> Daniels predicts I can run a marathon running 4:17 minute km's.
> Since his predictions of all my other times are eerily accurate, I
> wonder if I am short-changing myself, somehow... I *know* it's a
> prediction - not fact.... but it seems odd that he's almost half an
> hour off.

> David (in Ontario)

> --
> --
>  :*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
>  "Nunc scio quit sit amor."
> .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.

Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
 
 
 

Question About Jack Daniels Method

Post by SwStudi » Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:53:58


Quote:
> As I recall, the Daniel's VDOT tables show your equivalent potential at
> various distances.  Your 19:14 5k indicates you have the POTENTIAL to run
a
> 3:04 marathon.  You still need to be properly trainined for a marathon
> before you can reach that potential.

Understood, but my 5k PR is continuously improving. 90 days ago I
had yet to break 20 minutes. Wouldn't this make the 'equivalent
potential' overly arbitrary? I'm sure that I will be running 5k in 18:30
or thereabouts by spring if I work hard. That suddenly makes my
marathon's 'equivalent potential' 2:56! As far as proper training, I
run about 80km - 90km weekly now, with long runs of about 24km-
34km. I have tried running the long one faster than my usual 5:00/km
pace, and always wind up tired. I *think* I could run the marathon
at 4:50/km. I would surely be treading a fine line, though.

Quote:
> If you are only 5 weeks from your marathon, DO NOT attempt to run faster
> just because you read something in a book.  Learn from your recent
training.
> If 8:00/m is a comfortable pace, start at that pace.  The first half of
the
> marathon should feel very easy (if not, you're in trouble).

Agreed - at that pace I am fine at the 21km mark. I may try to run either
5:00/km for the first half then 4:50/km for the second half, or just try to
run straight 4:55's the whole way.

Quote:
> I made the mistake (twice) of going out too fast in an attempt to maintain
a
> given pace.  My most successful (fast & enjoyable) marathon was when I ran
> by feel and relaxed for the first 16 miles.

It's funny that you mentioned "16 miles", because that is almost exactly
the point I start to have difficulty if I try to run the long one too fast.
A few
weeks ago I bailed on an attempt to run 4:30/km at about that point
because it felt like my ITB problems were coming back. I was also quite
fatigued. Would I have been able to finish a marathon at that pace? Yes....
but I would have collapsed at the end. I don't know if I want to push it
that hard for my first time.

David (in Ontario)

--
--
 :*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
 "Nunc scio quit sit amor."
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.

 
 
 

Question About Jack Daniels Method

Post by Sylvan Smyt » Thu, 14 Sep 2000 02:11:09

Quote:

>I'd take Dr. Daniels' word for this and go out at a pace that will get
>you to the finish line in the time he predicts.

Don't you mean "He predicts" ???

I say, just go for it!  Daniels is God.  You may figure you're barely
capable of a 3:20 with a supreme effort, but forget your own feelings
and put your faith in God.  3:04 or death.  4:21/km, 7:01/mile.

Sylvan Smyth

Victoria, BC, Canada

 
 
 

Question About Jack Daniels Method

Post by davidhdjo.. » Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:19:12

I ran 18:41 5k 3 weeks before Boston, ran Boston in 3:04, even pace
pretty much.  Listen to Dr. Daniels, he sounds about right



Quote:
> I have been really getting into the "Daniels Running
> Formula", and I know a lot of you have read it, and it is
> highly regarded. I agree that it is good, but have one
> question regarding the VDOT values.

> Upon estimating my VDOT on his chart, I immediately
> zeroed in on the 5k times, which I know best for myself.
> My PR is 19:14, so that made my VDOT 52 (a 17:17 5k,
> the closest match). I then looked at all the corresponding
> distances to see how accurate it was - and lo and behold,
> it's almost dead-on for predicting my 10k time, 1 mile
> time (I'm a *little* faster), and all the rest..... up to
> marathon. You see, I've never ran one, but I have intense
> interest in what my *expected* pace should be, as I AM
> running one in 5 weeks.

> The Daniels VDOT values peg me to run a 3:04 (or thereabouts)
> marathon. That is HALF AN HOUR longer that my own
> predictions, based on my long runs. I often do a 30k as the
> long one, and have tried this distance at different paces. My
> experience is as follows:

> 30km in 2:30: This is my "easy" pace.. straight 5:00 km's (or
>                           8:00 miles). I am sure I could run the
marathon
>                           at this pace and finish in 3:30. It
wouldn't be
> easy,
>                           but it wouldn't be a disaster, either. When
I run
>                           at this pace, I start getting a bit sore
after
> about
>                           24-28km, but cardio is totally fine.

> 30km in 2:23: Although this represents only a 15 seconds per
>                           km increase in speed, I am not sure if I
could
> keep
>                           that up for the full 42km of a marathon. I
find I
> am
>                           fine for the first 15km-20km, then fatigue
makes
>                           the pace start the slowing process. Going
at this
> pace
>                           equals a 3:20 marathon, still WAYYY off my
VDOT.
>                           I HAVE done this time, however - I was
really
> pushing
>                           it at the end. Facing 12 more km's would
have
> scared
>                           me at that pace.

> 30 km in 2:13: I've never done it. I think the fastest I have ran a
>                            fairly significant distance is about 14km
in an
> hour(that's
>                            8.7 miles) I KNOW I cannot run much faster
yet,
> as
>                            I have yet to break 40:00 for 10km. Yet
this time
>                            (2:13/30km) is the speed I should be able
to
> maintain
>                            for the full marathon.

> Daniels predicts I can run a marathon running 4:17 minute km's.
> Since his predictions of all my other times are eerily accurate, I
> wonder if I am short-changing myself, somehow... I *know* it's a
> prediction - not fact.... but it seems odd that he's almost half an
> hour off.

> David (in Ontario)

> --
> --
>  :*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
>  "Nunc scio quit sit amor."
> .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
 
 
 

Question About Jack Daniels Method

Post by Eric Wel » Fri, 15 Sep 2000 00:32:32

Here's another thought about using the Daniel's VDOT tables as marathon
predictors.

A 5k race performance is probably one of the least reliable for predicting
your marathon potential.  A 10k or Half Marathon race would be better
indicators because those distances are more similar to a marathon.  Also,
your recent long runs are probably better predictors than your recent 5k
times.


Quote:
> I have been really getting into the "Daniels Running
> Formula", and I know a lot of you have read it, and it is
> highly regarded. I agree that it is good, but have one
> question regarding the VDOT values.

> Upon estimating my VDOT on his chart, I immediately
> zeroed in on the 5k times, which I know best for myself.
> My PR is 19:14, so that made my VDOT 52 (a 17:17 5k,
> the closest match). I then looked at all the corresponding
> distances to see how accurate it was - and lo and behold,
> it's almost dead-on for predicting my 10k time, 1 mile
> time (I'm a *little* faster), and all the rest..... up to
> marathon. You see, I've never ran one, but I have intense
> interest in what my *expected* pace should be, as I AM
> running one in 5 weeks.

> The Daniels VDOT values peg me to run a 3:04 (or thereabouts)
> marathon. That is HALF AN HOUR longer that my own
> predictions, based on my long runs. I often do a 30k as the
> long one, and have tried this distance at different paces. My
> experience is as follows:

> 30km in 2:30: This is my "easy" pace.. straight 5:00 km's (or
>                           8:00 miles). I am sure I could run the marathon
>                           at this pace and finish in 3:30. It wouldn't be
> easy,
>                           but it wouldn't be a disaster, either. When I
run
>                           at this pace, I start getting a bit sore after
> about
>                           24-28km, but cardio is totally fine.

> 30km in 2:23: Although this represents only a 15 seconds per
>                           km increase in speed, I am not sure if I could
> keep
>                           that up for the full 42km of a marathon. I find
I
> am
>                           fine for the first 15km-20km, then fatigue makes
>                           the pace start the slowing process. Going at
this
> pace
>                           equals a 3:20 marathon, still WAYYY off my VDOT.
>                           I HAVE done this time, however - I was really
> pushing
>                           it at the end. Facing 12 more km's would have
> scared
>                           me at that pace.

> 30 km in 2:13: I've never done it. I think the fastest I have ran a
>                            fairly significant distance is about 14km in an
> hour(that's
>                            8.7 miles) I KNOW I cannot run much faster yet,
> as
>                            I have yet to break 40:00 for 10km. Yet this
time
>                            (2:13/30km) is the speed I should be able to
> maintain
>                            for the full marathon.

> Daniels predicts I can run a marathon running 4:17 minute km's.
> Since his predictions of all my other times are eerily accurate, I
> wonder if I am short-changing myself, somehow... I *know* it's a
> prediction - not fact.... but it seems odd that he's almost half an
> hour off.

> David (in Ontario)

> --
> --
>  :*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
>  "Nunc scio quit sit amor."
> .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.

Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
 
 
 

Question About Jack Daniels Method

Post by Roger 2 » Sun, 17 Sep 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>I have been really getting into the "Daniels Running
>Formula", and I know a lot of you have read it, and it is
>highly regarded. I agree that it is good, but have one
>question regarding the VDOT values.

---snip---

Quote:
>Daniels predicts I can run a marathon running 4:17 minute km's.
>Since his predictions of all my other times are eerily accurate, I
>wonder if I am short-changing myself, somehow... I *know* it's a
>prediction - not fact.... but it seems odd that he's almost half an
>hour off.

David,

My VDOT stuff
5k  says 40
1/2 says 35

Other distances I've run show the same thing, a higher VDOT for shorter
distances and lower for longer.

Considering the slope factor, I guess I'll forget about the Marathon until I
can see a 5k in less than 20 minutes.  I guess that slope factor means I
burn out too quick.  Oh well, I'd run more if I didn't have so much work to
do.

Talk about work, I think about running when I'm at work and I think about
work when I'm running.  I think something is wrong there.

Roger