GPS Trainer Done Right

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by lanceand.. » Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:40:26


Bones In Motion....if you got 4-5 minutes...check out the demo.   I
want one of these things, never have bought one, but this.....this
looks cool and strikes as several magnitudes of order better than
anything else I've seen.   I think it's on the market next week...

http://www.demo.com/demonstrators/demo2006/62969.html

http://bonesinmotion.com/corp/home.html

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by Charlie Pendej » Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:42:53

Quote:

> I want one of these things, never have bought one, but this.....this
> looks cool and strikes as several magnitudes of order better than
> anything else I've seen.

How so?  I watched the video and can't guess what facet(s) of this
thing e*** you - unless it's as an investor.

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by lanceand.. » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:17:04

Quote:
>How so?  I watched the video and can't guess what facet(s) of this

thing e*** you
____

This app provides street, topology, & sat mapping & complete weather
conditions (humidity, etc.) elevation, etc...and also grades a
difficulty degree, w/your height and weight data it provides caloric
burn & from all the data it would not be hard to analyze nutritional
intake needs....along w/all the GPS data accrued & derived.  Note it
does all this graphically.

Literally after you finish a run with a push of a button you can upload
all this data to the bimactive on-line site, your account for private
viewing, your blog for public viewing.  A runner can share all this
data for analysis, graphically, within seconds after running.

We no longer have to describe our runs from our recollections hours or
days after the fact (losing/forgetting tons of detail),  we can view
our performance graphically in tremendous detail and share this
data...seconds after a run.   Trail & Road degree of difficulties are
scored, you can read reviews and see the data of those reviewing the
trail or road training course or race.

Pendejo, businesses can be created out of this.  Note all the running
camps, schools, coaches, etc.  Doug F might be able to be a personal
professional coach to a dozen or ten dozen trail runners all over the
world.   This app Pendejo allows professionals to scale their skill
set, apply it commercially, globally.  So if I hired doug to be my
personal coach, after every run I would upload my data, txt msg an
uploads been made to Doug, and sometime later he would examine it and
deliver detailed feedback & advise for the next run.  Doug could
monitor (& manage) his clients all over the world in real & near-real
time if he likes.

It does not matter if it's Doug, Bob Glover, DK, or the local running
hot shot.   Detailed examination & analysis of accurate performance is
now simple to communicate between people anywhere in the world.   So a
runner does not need to know how to self-examine....a "Doug" can
examine and derive conclusions & solutions....and give pointers on
improvement.

Think of the "niche" sectors.   Pregnant runners, runners recovering
from a certain type of injury, overweight runners, runner's trying to
BQ, etc.  There could be a person with expertise in each niche that you
might be able to retain for $49.99 / month for example and the
relationship managed on-line.  Professional personal coaching/guidance
is expensive, this can change everything.

Ya know how Doug told me in detail how I will fail miserably at his
race unless I train specifically for that event in a certain way (i.e.
prep my quads, etc.)...well that notion & expertise can be marketed
Pendejo.  Thousands of running enthusiast all over the country & world
come to NYC, Boston, for these specific events (and spend thousands of
their dollars in doing so).   A local course pro can easily craft a a
consulting business serving those people near, or afar...on the
cheap...training them for these courses and races.  A course to manage
the rolling hills of Boston is going to be differet than a course to
manage the flat course of Chicago for example.

Theoretically you can upload your data while you  are in an
event....and have your trainer coach call with direction on how to
proceed knowing what lies ahead.  A runner can be running too fast for
example in a 50 Mile or 100 Mile race...a trainer/coach might spot that
2 hours into the event and contact their client via phone/txt msg, etc.

It's unfortunate that you are unable to see all the apps and directions
in which model can flow...the justification for the e***ment....how
it can be leveraged privately and commercially, but they are there.

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by Donovan Rebbech » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:45:51


Quote:
>>How so?  I watched the video and can't guess what facet(s) of this
>> thing e*** you

> This app provides street, topology, & sat mapping & complete weather
> conditions (humidity, etc.) elevation, etc...and also grades a
> difficulty degree, w/your height and weight data it provides caloric
> burn & from all the data it would not be hard to analyze nutritional
> intake needs....along w/all the GPS data accrued & derived.  Note it
> does all this graphically.

Caloric data is nothing new, and one can easily estimate it from mileage
anyway. Any GPS unit will give you GPS data, and upload capability.

Quote:

> Literally after you finish a run with a push of a button you can upload
> all this data to the bimactive on-line site, your account for private

Uploading is not novel. Uploading to a website where someone else controls
your data is kind of scary.

[snip]

Quote:
> Pendejo, businesses can be created out of this.  Note all the running
> camps, schools, coaches, etc.  

No shit. They already have been.

[snip]

Quote:
> uploads been made to Doug, and sometime later he would examine it and
> deliver detailed feedback & advise for the next run.  Doug could

Training logs are just as good or better. Over-analyzing an ordinary training
run isn't terribly useful, and you get more out of asking more basic questions
like how good or bad the run felt, etc. For example, if you ran slow, why did
you run slow ? Was it because you felt terrible, or was it because you
consciously took it easy ?

As for interval workouts, a properly measured course always beats a GPS.

[snip]

Quote:
> Theoretically you can upload your data while you  are in an
> event....and have your trainer coach call with direction on how to
> proceed knowing what lies ahead.  A runner can be running too fast for
> example in a 50 Mile or 100 Mile race...a trainer/coach might spot that
> 2 hours into the event and contact their client via phone/txt msg, etc.

I don't think that's even legal if the race is run according to the usual rules
that govern athletic competitions ... Never mind the fact that using a GPS
unit to second guess listening to ones own body is generally a very bad idea.

Quote:
> It's unfortunate that you are unable to see all the apps and directions
> in which model can flow...the justification for the e***ment....how
> it can be leveraged privately and commercially, but they are there.

Don't get me wrong, GPS units are just fine, especially if they come with a
good altimeter. Where you've lost me is that I just don't see what's terribly
novel about this particular unit as opposed to numerous others.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://SportToday.org/~elflord/

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by Charlie Pendej » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:56:59

Quote:

> It's unfortunate that you are unable to see all the apps and directions
> in which model can flow...the justification for the e***ment....how
> it can be leveraged privately and commercially, but they are there.

You may well be right.  I'll freely admit, I'm a total business dummy.
By which I think I largely mean: I usually don't have a good idea what
most of my fellow humans want, what they'll buy, why they get e***d
about all the things I don't and vice versa.

To me, for my running, I can think of exactly one thing I'd want from
this category of gizmo: instantaneous pace, to help me do
speedwork/tempo/MP workouts anywhere without needing a track or
measured course, or relying strictly on my own perception of effort, or
measured HR.  This thing ain't got that.

There's one thing I wouldn't be inclined to tolerate from a doodad: a
monthly fee.  I'd rather buy something and be done with it.  This thing
got that.

Plus I don't own a cell phone and have no interest in either acquiring
one or borrowing the wife's.

This might turn out to be the hottest thing ever but I'd have zero
interest, myself.

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by CuntJa.. » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:02:09



Quote:
>By which I think I largely mean: I usually don't have a good idea what
>most of my fellow humans want

This tends to carry over into your sex life too.
 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by lanceand.. » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:33:15

no donnie...you're not looking at this right.   look at the big picture
model.

It's "Epinions + Google Earth + a Runner's Board".  You have to vision
a populated website, their site, and it will be in time with the
collective data over time of hundreds of people.

You spent 3-4 weeks in Australia last Feb/March?   With this tool,
after every training run you did in Austraila, Bob Glover here in NYC
or your teammates could go to your blog site and monitor/view your
continued training in great detail including knowing the weather
conditions, training run difficulty, they could see your pace over an
uphill climb, and if they wanted to, they could from above see the
actual uphill climb (with the Google Earth-like App).  If you trained
in a popular area where other runner trained...they could possibly see
reviews of the course you trained on etc.  It's all consolidated at one
place and date there in near real time.  That's new & different.

Not everyone is as self-knowledge & running-training savvy as you and
many people could use the feedback of their coach/teammates.
Marathonguide.com now has opinions of marathons.  But they are based on
recall and don't really communicate the areas of challenge or than in a
few words...and does not have a GoogleEarth like mapping of them and
you cannot go there and examine the racing data of the person
expressing the opinion.   You donnie might have a teammate that's for
whateve reason is away for a month.....well you can efficiently be of
help to your teammate by examining their blog (data)...etc..

Doug's freaking race.  Well right now we should be able to GoogleEarth
it.  However it would be great if we could see the details of the
runners per the course to appreciate why it's so tough and taxes a
runner to their marathon time + 1 hour even though it's 30K, not 42K.
It's one thing to read about it...it's an entirely different thing to
see a 3 hour marathoner take 4 hours to complete that race.

It's about consolidating at a central site all this GPS Data, not just
of the runner, but of the course.  The only way we can score/grade
course difficulty is it's charted and placed on the site...and I am
sure they have a forumula not based on the runner but the topology.

And this is just the public application....private use is a whole other
thing...

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by lanceand.. » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 02:06:38

Quote:
>I can think of exactly one thing I'd want from

this category of gizmo: instantaneous pace,
__

you're traveling to race in the boilermaker 15K. wouldn't it be kind a
cool to assimilate the course locally....or craft a run that mirrors a
similar course, topology as specific areas and all..course difficulty
and all?   well, with this you can do that.  and if you live in a large
running community, perhaps someone has already done it for you.

the "grading" angle is going to be a much needed feature to running in
general.  it's ridiculous that the Chicago & Big Sur Marathons have the
same BQ standards.   as long as it's done evenly across the
board...that is what's going to be interesting.

I would like to see all these race courses graded (Bolder Boulder,
Crescent City, Peachtree, etc.) in degree of difficulty...as well as
the popular running areas of cities everywhere.

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by Doug Frees » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 03:46:49


Quote:
> .  Doug F might be able to be a personal
> professional coach to a dozen or ten dozen trail runners all over the
> world.

Thanks but no thanks. With very few exceptions I stay local and all
information is exchanged verbally by phone or during a run. I prefer
dialog not charts and graphs. Many times it's what isn't said or charted
that gives the best information.

Quote:
> Ya know how Doug told me in detail how I will fail miserably at his
> race unless I train specifically for that event in a certain way (i.e.
> prep my quads, etc.)...well that notion & expertise can be marketed
> Pendejo.

There are quite a few people out there playing coach - some good and
some bad. Call me old fashioned but I  see a tool providing only minimal
help.

-DougF

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by Phil M » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 03:50:04

Quote:

> I would like to see all these race courses graded (Bolder Boulder,
> Crescent City, Peachtree, etc.) in degree of difficulty...as well as
> the popular running areas of cities everywhere.

Looks cool. Have you compared this to stuff that's already out there,
like motionbased.com?

Peachtree Road Race - http://tinyurl.com/aw5qu
Leadville 100 - http://tinyurl.com/dxswu

--
Phil M.

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by Tony S » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 03:53:05


Quote:
> no donnie...you're not looking at this right.   look at the big picture
> model.
> ...
> Doug's freaking race.  Well right now we should be able to GoogleEarth
> it.  However it would be great if we could see the details of the
> runners per the course to appreciate why it's so tough and taxes a
> runner to their marathon time + 1 hour even though it's 30K, not 42K.
> It's one thing to read about it...it's an entirely different thing to
> see a 3 hour marathoner take 4 hours to complete that race.

> It's about consolidating at a central site all this GPS Data, not just
> of the runner, but of the course.  The only way we can score/grade
> course difficulty is it's charted and placed on the site...and I am
> sure they have a forumula not based on the runner but the topology.

> And this is just the public application....private use is a whole other
> thing...

Undoubtedly you're right. If the march of technology continues unimpeded by
societal upheaval, eventually every inch of every place will be mapped in
blueprint detail to be used for purposes you've touched upon, but as yet
unimagined fully in all the potential business uses.

I used to think it would be fantastic to have a GPS
tracking/mapping/personal biofeedback monitoring device for outdoor
activities. It would revolutionize making orienteering maps for one thing.
(see http://tinyurl.com/ac3rj for an example orienteering map). As these
technologies started to become available, I lost interest in it for personal
use, though admit it's business uses are broad and compelling.

As far as remembering what the course is like, needing a device to tell me
how hard I'm going, and/or to rate a course for me - no thanks. While I do
use a simple biofeedback device (a HRM), I don't want some mega-monolith
website to collect all my data and "program" me. Time and effort and knowing
what kind of terrain I ran on will do fine thank you. Will people use them
as individuals and improve their performance? Perhaps, but IMO they will be
losing sight of what it's all about in the first place for 99.99% of us -
recreation. I'd rather get lost in the woods and have to use my wits to find
my way back than track myself with a GPS. As it is I usually use a map and
compass when I'm in unfamiliar areas, but I sometimes explore new trails
(getting lost sometimes) and memorize trail junctions and landmarks - the
way it was done before map and compass; it wakes up your senses.

-Tony

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by Charlie Pendej » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 04:23:35

Quote:

> you're traveling to race in the boilermaker 15K. wouldn't it be kind a
> cool to assimilate the course locally

Utica's a slightly hilly road course.  Nearly any roads I might choose
to run from my apartment are gonna offer broadly comparable terrain.

If I were instead trying to prepare for something with terrain
considerably different from what I'm used to here, say WS100, this
would still not help - because there's nothing in the city like that.
The website ain't gonna create a whole new local topography out of thin
air.  Maybe if it interfaced with a treadmill to control the incline,
that would add some small grain of value beyond simply knowing that I
better be ready for about a 3 mile ascent at around 8-10 degrees or
whatever.  Of course that would do nothing to similate the footing or
obstacles or trail width, and I don't have a treadmill and don't care
to run on one, but at least it's a tiny bit theoretically interesting.

Quote:
> the "grading" angle is going to be a much needed feature to running

A silly gimmick.  As has been amply discussed here, the "difficulty"
from various factors varies wildly by individual.

90F and 90% RH?  Phil and Karen live through months of this and become
well-acclimated and it's no big deal beyond slowing them :xx / mile
relative to their winter weather.  Fly Dot or Parker to these
conditions tomorrow, and they're gonna need medical backup to even
attempt the slowest Gallo-jogging in that soup.  What's the degree of
difficulty?

Escarpment Trail?  Tony's half mountain goat, half flying squirrel and
a lifetime of running on this crazy stuff means he slows a lot less
under these conditions than you do.  OTOH you beat him by a wide margin
on the roads.  What's the degree of difficulty?

What *I* see the value in, is actually getting oneself up to Utica or
the Escarpment Trail and running one's ass off.  I'll take the robust
reality over the faint techno-shadow of a pale digital simulation,
please.

I have a reservation at the best joint in town, the Hotel Utica, Friday
- Sunday nights of Boilermaker weekend.  :-)

Pendejo, who really must do some work this afternoon

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by lanceand.. » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 04:55:56

I like the Cell Phone option w/BIM....does motionbased offer that too?
 I saw the forums but but BMI seems to be more focused on creating a
universal language for runners.  That's what's missing, a common
currency.   Does Motion score/grade running routes?

BMI's going to be doing that and imo that's very very significant.  The
wine industry has a common currency...actually there are about "3"
voices of authority, grading, and scoring...but that enables
"communication" for the participants seeking to communicate.

Wouldn't it be great if every RD's event, every city & trail route had
a grading of difficulty?  BMI seems to be going in that direction,
accruing that data..based on the topology & distance, not the
runner....with weather variables thrown in the equation (wind/humidity,
etc.)

They seem to be set on mapping out the running landscape in america
with their site and fostering competitions with runners in different
parts of the coutry...assuming everyone's running on the same graded
course & distance.  At least this is what I gather from them.

Sort of like a Runner's "Zillow".  Have you played with this yet?  Was
released yesterday, it's in beta, plug in a street address and see the
value of your home.  Check out Zillow.com  I did it with some property
I in California...zoomed right down to street level and could see the
values of the house and those of every on the block.  I cross ref.
checked it with some data I bought at Melissadata.com to review the
real world sales prices of 30 days ago in the area....spot checked and
had surprisingly excellent accuracy.   It has some bugs to work out for
NYC....however I'm visioning a mapping along these lines....but of the
running landscape.

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by Parker Rac » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 05:00:33


Quote:

>> you're traveling to race in the boilermaker 15K. wouldn't it be kind a
>> cool to assimilate the course locally

> Utica's a slightly hilly road course.  Nearly any roads I might choose
> to run from my apartment are gonna offer broadly comparable terrain.

> If I were instead trying to prepare for something with terrain
> considerably different from what I'm used to here, say WS100, this
> would still not help - because there's nothing in the city like that.
> The website ain't gonna create a whole new local topography out of thin
> air.  Maybe if it interfaced with a treadmill to control the incline,
> that would add some small grain of value beyond simply knowing that I
> better be ready for about a 3 mile ascent at around 8-10 degrees or
> whatever.  Of course that would do nothing to similate the footing or
> obstacles or trail width, and I don't have a treadmill and don't care
> to run on one, but at least it's a tiny bit theoretically interesting.

>> the "grading" angle is going to be a much needed feature to running

> A silly gimmick.  As has been amply discussed here, the "difficulty"
> from various factors varies wildly by individual.

> 90F and 90% RH?  Phil and Karen live through months of this and become
> well-acclimated and it's no big deal beyond slowing them :xx / mile
> relative to their winter weather.  Fly Dot or Parker to these
> conditions tomorrow, and they're gonna need medical backup to even
> attempt the slowest Gallo-jogging in that soup.  What's the degree of
> difficulty?

I can actually drive to Utica but why would I want to?
I ran the race once it was in the 80s very humid and no shade.
I ran the first 10k in about 46 minutes, I finished in just under 8 mpm pace
but two other people I know who ran that day ended up needing medical
assistance.
One had a good lead on me but passed out around the 9 mile mark.
Two words, never again.

Quote:

> Escarpment Trail?  Tony's half mountain goat, half flying squirrel and
> a lifetime of running on this crazy stuff means he slows a lot less
> under these conditions than you do.  OTOH you beat him by a wide margin
> on the roads.  What's the degree of difficulty?

> What *I* see the value in, is actually getting oneself up to Utica or
> the Escarpment Trail and running one's ass off.  I'll take the robust
> reality over the faint techno-shadow of a pale digital simulation,
> please.

I think it would be worth it to train on the Boston course if possible.
There are usually some long runs in March on the course that you can pay to
participate in.
Buses and water stops are provided.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> I have a reservation at the best joint in town, the Hotel Utica, Friday
> - Sunday nights of Boilermaker weekend.  :-)

> Pendejo, who really must do some work this afternoon

 
 
 

GPS Trainer Done Right

Post by lanceand.. » Sat, 11 Feb 2006 07:04:47

Quote:
>A silly gimmick.

_

you claim "grading" is a silly gimmick?....i've got a newsflash for
you.  Colleges & Universities have a lot more variables but somehow
they managed to be "graded" and even ranked.  Everything from Wines to
Restaurants are "graded" and scored Pendejo.   Ski slopes, Waves in
surfing competitions, all sorts of things are scored, graded, and
ranked...and for good reason.  Guidance.  Information is a good thing
Pendejo.

You simply lack an imaginitive understanding of applications....and the
value of a personal coach (an eye in the sky analyzing your data and
lending guidance)....In time you will see Galloway and Dreyer and all
the running Gurus offering some sort or form of private training
services that incorporate this model.

I read your words and it seems you're writing to the chior on this ng.
 Your words are in fact valueless...mean nothing..... to an aspiring
runner who knows nothing of rec.running.  There are more runners in the
world than us Pendejo....and they seek Guidance 101.  I see hundreds
every Tues & Thur in Central Park taking beginner classes.

Not everyone has access to good coaching, etc.  At least now, an
aspiring runner can go to a retreat, seminar, etc....and continue the
coaching/mentoring relationship with that particular running
coach...with the use of apps like this.