' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Craig Poxo » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:29:28



Quote:
> >Subject: Re: ' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

> >> 30000 children starved to death in the world yesterday and 30000 more
will
> >> today - and you are 'seething' over a book.

> Hey TK...you offer advice regarding "the book".....what have you done
about
> feeding those 30,000 starving kids, besides shoot your mouth off on an
> inconsequential NG ?

> A NG that Chris Needles mentioned in his Capitol Commentary I might add.

Nah, he was talking about dropzone.com

--
Craig
D11665 FSB5
http://www.poxon.org/Craig/Skydive/

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Rev Ji » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:54:27

Good point.


Quote:
> TKs a big dumb blowhard.  Treat him as such.

> --
> Blue Skies,
> Alan Binnebose



> > "SKydive City/Z-Hills" wrote

> > > If you expect USPA to keep 'up to date' copies of everything at any
> given
> > > time, then even that is unrealistic.  We are a moving sport, with
> training
> > > and license ratings changing, documentation changing almost daily thru
> the
> > > good work of committees , instructors and members, and the FAI, FAA,
IPC
> > > just to mention a few.  So just drop it.

> > He did not ask if the USPA kept up to date copies. They do, as they
> should.
> > He asked if you kept copies at your DZ for students, and whomever else
> > wanted one, for free. Do you?

> > > They produce a good product, if you need the 'latest', then pick up
the
> > > phone and request it instead of ***ing at it.  No one is going to
> > deliver
> > > it to your door and no one is going to produce it daily without some
> > > outrageous expense, of which you all seem to have a grievance as well.

> > Yes, it is a good product. Not great by any means, but good. It has
> already
> > been produced, probably at less than great expense, and that particular
> > expense was paid for by US. Not looking for "to my door" delivery, just
a
> > downloadable link to the FULL SIM. This contains information we are
> REQUIRED
> > to know, as members. Why must we pay for it twice?

> > > Does microsoft deliver the latest rpoduct to you for free - no, and
you
> > > sometimes have to get off your ass to go find out what that is.  and
> maybe
> > > make a phone call or two to find out,  don't be so lazy.

> > Is Micro$oft a not-for-profit company? If it was, and you were a member,
> and
> > YOUR money went to research that software, would you be pissed about
> having
> > to pay for it, knowing full well it was your money that developed it?

> > > Organization is not out of control and the fact that we have a manual
> with
> > > ongoing revisions is proof that they do actually serve the membership,
> not
> > > parlaying against it as you suggest.

> > OK, could you please quote the EXACT SIM text for me? Remember, this is
> > information you are EXPECTED to know. You paid to compile this
> information.
> > You paid for the computers it was typed into. You paid for the software
on
> > those computers. Hell, you paid the salary of those who typed it into
the
> > computer. Now you have to pay, again, to see what your employee typed
into
> > your program, on your computer, that is plugged into an outlet that you
> pay
> > the electric bill on?

> > > As far as free copies of any documentation, I am not sure what the
> comment
> > > means - somehow I am supposed to fill in the gap just because you
cannot
> > get
> > > something for free when you think it should be?  Would YOU provide the
> > world
> > > with free copies?  If not, then you are about as low as I am......

> > We are not asking for free copies. Copies incur the additional expense
of
> > printing. This should be paid. We are asking for FULL access to the SIM,
> > which happens to contain the BSRs, also known as our BIBLE. Yes, I would
> > provide free, DOWNLOADABLE copies to the world. Many students in the
past
> > year have used my personal, downloaded and printed, copy of the 2001 SIM
> to
> > study for their liscense exams. Why? Because I was the ONLY one on the
DZ
> > with a current copy. One, I might add, that i would not have had, had I
> been
> > forced to pay for it. How can you know if you broke a BSR, if you have
no
> on
> > site access to what the BSRs even are?

> > > Don't be surprised if things cost money to produce, that is a fact of
> > life,
> > > I am surprised that someone could make such narrow-minded comments,
> > > TK

> > Yes, Mr. Hayes, things cost money to produce. This one in particular has
> > been payed for, by us. I will not pay twice for information I am
REQUIRED
> to
> > know.

> > Mr. Hayes, what are YOU doing to help prevent the meaningless death of
> 30000
> > children today?

> > Reverend James Manny
> > posted and mailed




> > > > >certainly I will be the first to resign my membership and ratings,
> quit
> > > > >skydiving and develop a plot to assassinate some poor unfortunate
> over
> > > the
> > > > >production of a manual.

> > > > >30000 children starved to death in the world yesterday and 30000
more
> > > will
> > > > >today - and you are 'seething' over a book.

> > > > >get real

> > > > If you think Treetop is seething over just a book, then you are
> clearly
> > > > unable to see that the book is just one more example, in a long list
> of
> > > > examples, of just how far our organization is out of control, and
has
> > > moved
> > > > away from serving the average member.

> > > > But since it is "just a book" can we assume you provide up to date
> free
> > > > copies to jumpers there? No? Didn't think so.

> > > > Oh, Treetop is as real as anybody I know that posts on the wreck.

> > > > Tom B


 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Rev Ji » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:57:37


Quote:

> "Rev Jim" wrote ...

> > > PS:  If you think it's all about money, why not ask them how much
profit
> > > they generate per copy?
> > Well, since they sell in bulk for as low as $15 each, including
shipping,
> I
> > would say it's AT LEAST $8.50 per copy at full price. Now, we all know
> > there's a markup in there somewhere. as far as paying for the research,
> man
> > hours to type it in to Adobe Acrobat, ect, that has already been payed
> for.
> > WE payed for it. WE pay those wages. In actuality, the profit made on
the
> > SIMs sold is 100%, minus actual printing costs.

> Are you somehow privy to the USPA budget?
> Can you specify exactly how much is allocated for SIM development,
printing,
> stocking, etc?
> Do we even know how much development is done through paid vs. donated
time?

> Sounds like some questions for MWTB.  Maybe there should be MWHQ (Mondays
> With HeadQuarters) so we can ask them these questions.

Allocation, sure, but that time was still paid for, period. They have a
finite amout of resources. I don't care how much you want to twist the
subject, the fact remains that these are our employees, that we pay, doing
our work. Profit is 100% minus printing cost, period.

Rev

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by m » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:47:12


[snip]
Quote:
> Then get off your ass and start typing, start updating the web pages and
> offer your services to solve the problem, all I see is ***ing - no
> constructive offering of how to solve the problem.  I expect they are all
> sitting around all day at USPA HQ doing nothing - so no wonder they must
> have gobs of time to jump every time you need something done.

[snip]

   Actually, a good 8 years ago when the whole idea of a web based SIM
was first floated, as well as the idea of a USPA home page, several folks
offered their services for free to USPA.  Every single one was rejected.
The primary concern of the BOD was loss of income from the sales of the
SIM.  And they didn't want a web page "out of control" of the BOD and
the "home office".  

   People do offer TK, and their offers of help are turned down if
they aren't in line with the profit minded BOD.

                      Kevin O'Connell

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by kallen » Fri, 08 Nov 2002 00:25:22

Quote:


> > Whatever you may think of the SIM, be glad it's not like the BPA
> > operations manual.


> > > Yes, it is a good product. Not great by any means, but good.

> I don't think the two can be directly compared but why do you say that John?
> Harping on about the helmets rule again? At least it's free to download from
> the Association's website. And it's issued in sections and filed in folders
> so relevant sections can be easily updated without haveing to replace the
> whole manual.

> --
> Craig
> D11665 FSB5
> http://www.poxon.org/Craig/Skydive/

The helmet rule is but one example, typical of the "nanny knows best"
tone of the entire thing.

But I admit it is easy to access and update

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Dust » Fri, 08 Nov 2002 00:48:04

Quote:
> the fact remains that these are our employees, that we pay, doing
> our work. >

Yeah, thats exactly what I told that cop who gave me a speeding ticket last
week.

The fact is, USPA has become so political, those who run it think they know
better whats good for you, than you do yourself. In their minds, sale of the
SIM generates more revenue, which allows them to do something else which
generates even more revenue.

Who, other than a skydiver would want to visit a Skydiving Museum?

How many skydivers would travel hundreds or even thousands of miles more
than once to see it? So why are we building it? As a monument to those who
have gone before us?

Dusty

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by ynotsso » Fri, 08 Nov 2002 02:21:29

[...]

Quote:
> The fact is, USPA has become so political, those who run it think they know
> better whats good for you, than you do yourself. In their minds, sale of the
> SIM generates more revenue, which allows them to do something else which
> generates even more revenue.

> Who, other than a skydiver would want to visit a Skydiving Museum?

> How many skydivers would travel hundreds or even thousands of miles more
> than once to see it? So why are we building it? As a monument to those who
> have gone before us?

You already answered your own question above. To generate even more revenue.

What do you suppose the admission charge will be after driving those hundreds or
even thousands of miles to see a museum that we already paid for?

Certainly not free, I'll be willing to bet.

               tony

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' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Airdiv » Sat, 09 Nov 2002 01:47:12

I beg to differ..........he's just big!!!!!!!!

Elaine


Quote:
> TKs a big dumb blowhard.  Treat him as such.

> --
> Blue Skies,
> Alan Binnebose



> > "SKydive City/Z-Hills" wrote

> > > If you expect USPA to keep 'up to date' copies of everything at any
> given
> > > time, then even that is unrealistic.  We are a moving sport, with
> training
> > > and license ratings changing, documentation changing almost daily thru
> the
> > > good work of committees , instructors and members, and the FAI, FAA,
IPC
> > > just to mention a few.  So just drop it.

> > He did not ask if the USPA kept up to date copies. They do, as they
> should.
> > He asked if you kept copies at your DZ for students, and whomever else
> > wanted one, for free. Do you?

> > > They produce a good product, if you need the 'latest', then pick up
the
> > > phone and request it instead of ***ing at it.  No one is going to
> > deliver
> > > it to your door and no one is going to produce it daily without some
> > > outrageous expense, of which you all seem to have a grievance as well.

> > Yes, it is a good product. Not great by any means, but good. It has
> already
> > been produced, probably at less than great expense, and that particular
> > expense was paid for by US. Not looking for "to my door" delivery, just
a
> > downloadable link to the FULL SIM. This contains information we are
> REQUIRED
> > to know, as members. Why must we pay for it twice?

> > > Does microsoft deliver the latest rpoduct to you for free - no, and
you
> > > sometimes have to get off your ass to go find out what that is.  and
> maybe
> > > make a phone call or two to find out,  don't be so lazy.

> > Is Micro$oft a not-for-profit company? If it was, and you were a member,
> and
> > YOUR money went to research that software, would you be pissed about
> having
> > to pay for it, knowing full well it was your money that developed it?

> > > Organization is not out of control and the fact that we have a manual
> with
> > > ongoing revisions is proof that they do actually serve the membership,
> not
> > > parlaying against it as you suggest.

> > OK, could you please quote the EXACT SIM text for me? Remember, this is
> > information you are EXPECTED to know. You paid to compile this
> information.
> > You paid for the computers it was typed into. You paid for the software
on
> > those computers. Hell, you paid the salary of those who typed it into
the
> > computer. Now you have to pay, again, to see what your employee typed
into
> > your program, on your computer, that is plugged into an outlet that you
> pay
> > the electric bill on?

> > > As far as free copies of any documentation, I am not sure what the
> comment
> > > means - somehow I am supposed to fill in the gap just because you
cannot
> > get
> > > something for free when you think it should be?  Would YOU provide the
> > world
> > > with free copies?  If not, then you are about as low as I am......

> > We are not asking for free copies. Copies incur the additional expense
of
> > printing. This should be paid. We are asking for FULL access to the SIM,
> > which happens to contain the BSRs, also known as our BIBLE. Yes, I would
> > provide free, DOWNLOADABLE copies to the world. Many students in the
past
> > year have used my personal, downloaded and printed, copy of the 2001 SIM
> to
> > study for their liscense exams. Why? Because I was the ONLY one on the
DZ
> > with a current copy. One, I might add, that i would not have had, had I
> been
> > forced to pay for it. How can you know if you broke a BSR, if you have
no
> on
> > site access to what the BSRs even are?

> > > Don't be surprised if things cost money to produce, that is a fact of
> > life,
> > > I am surprised that someone could make such narrow-minded comments,
> > > TK

> > Yes, Mr. Hayes, things cost money to produce. This one in particular has
> > been payed for, by us. I will not pay twice for information I am
REQUIRED
> to
> > know.

> > Mr. Hayes, what are YOU doing to help prevent the meaningless death of
> 30000
> > children today?

> > Reverend James Manny
> > posted and mailed




> > > > >certainly I will be the first to resign my membership and ratings,
> quit
> > > > >skydiving and develop a plot to assassinate some poor unfortunate
> over
> > > the
> > > > >production of a manual.

> > > > >30000 children starved to death in the world yesterday and 30000
more
> > > will
> > > > >today - and you are 'seething' over a book.

> > > > >get real

> > > > If you think Treetop is seething over just a book, then you are
> clearly
> > > > unable to see that the book is just one more example, in a long list
> of
> > > > examples, of just how far our organization is out of control, and
has
> > > moved
> > > > away from serving the average member.

> > > > But since it is "just a book" can we assume you provide up to date
> free
> > > > copies to jumpers there? No? Didn't think so.

> > > > Oh, Treetop is as real as anybody I know that posts on the wreck.

> > > > Tom B

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Jldorman54 » Sat, 09 Nov 2002 06:42:55

I understand now that the "museum" is not owned in anyway, shape, or fashion by
the USPA.  It is an entirely independent entity being headed up by a former
Executive Director of USPA..William Ottley.  

So, in essence, the USPA is delving into the plan of purchasing the property
with the wishes of the museum to be located near the new USPA Head Quarters
building; and the consensus is that they haven't the money to assure that they
will be able to purchase the property that was originally 5 acres which would
have afforded a tax break for the organizations.

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Tom » Sat, 09 Nov 2002 11:16:37

Quote:

>Then get off your ass and start typing, start updating the web pages and
>offer your services to solve the problem, all I see is ***ing - no
>constructive offering of how to solve the problem.

Well now that you have seen Jan's post and the absolute chain of evidence that
many have offered to help, and that having a current version on the web is a
simple matter, do you want to rescind your statement above? Or just stay silent
and continue to act out the role of village idiot?

 I expect they are all

Quote:
>sitting around all day at USPA HQ doing nothing - so no wonder they must
>have gobs of time to jump every time you need something done.

I never said they were doing nothing. From my perspective they are working hard
and well at meeting Group Member needs.

Quote:

>When I call, I get what I want, when I write, I get what I want (as a
>MEMBER, not a DZO), have you bothered?  Or do you prefer just to fight?

Fight? I thought we were having a constructive debate regarding the merits and
issues of having the SIM online.

Quote:
>They don't want to SELL you your property, they want to make sure enough $$
>are there to cover the cost of the next one.

As far the comments that SIM sales are not a matter of significance, consider
Kevin Gibson's quote Dave provided.

"I, for one, am concerned about maintaining the revenue that the SIM
produces for the USPA, which is very important (and anyway, that's
part of my job as National Director). We have to careful about 1.)
Projects that cost USPA money but do not in turn pay for themselves
(unfunded programs, mandates, or resolutions; and 2.) Taking current
revenue producers off line. [No pun?] Lester has several solutions for
my concerns, which he hopes to preent. He says there will soon be an
easy way for USPA to charge for downloading from the net.

If you would present your proposal with a financial soution, my guess
is that it would be better received."

As I have stated on the rec many times, when you dont know and can't find out
why something happens, follow the money trail. 99% of the time it will provide
you your answer.

Tom B