' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by travisbost.. » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:53:13


Quote:

> Great for online use, but that's about it.  Cross-references nicely.  They
> took some pieces and pdf'd them since some of those tables would be a ***
> in HTML.

effortless...
via conversion utility
-Shane
 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Tom » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 08:22:04

Quote:

>The SIMs can't be a large revenue stream-

Is it huge? No I agree it is not. But it speaks to a mentality that seems
invasive to the operation of the organization.

Quote:
>Current standard and procedures should be in a bare bones PDF on the site
for
>all 'members'. It should be updated and 100% current with the latest
revisions
>with a note-last updated on next scheduled revisions on X date.

The money spent subsidizing the GM program could be used to get more than a
bare bones version up on the web. :)

Quote:
>If the cost to buy adobe acrobat- is too high ($200) then they should check
>into shareware- I downloaded a conversion program for $20 that would
convert
>the MS Word/Quark whatever into a PDF.

Yep. But things cost more in DC.

Quote:
>To leverage this as a revenue stream is more trouble than its worth.

Then why the concern over violations of copyright with a printable version?
Somevody seems to think it is worth something.

Tom B

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by john » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:01:02

Whatever you may think of the SIM, be glad it's not like the BPA
operations manual.
Quote:

> Yes, it is a good product. Not great by any means, but good.


 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Mike Eaki » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:17:21


<snip>

Quote:
>        Are you seething yet?
>         Are you "outraged"?

Nope.

<snip>

Quote:
>           I'm *Pissed-Off*!!!   I hope that you are also!!!!!!!

Nope.
 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by LORD OF THE SK » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:30:59


Quote:

> 30000 children starved to death in the world yesterday and 30000 more will
> today - and you are 'seething' over a book.

> get real

    Mr Hayes,
                   I would like to end world hunger ,poverty ,and even rid
the world of cancer.
                  As a matter of fact over the years I have volunteered a
great amount of time and resources to these very issues.

           Today I am additionally concerned that my Fellow Fun Jumpers may
not have access to important safety and training manuals which could very
well save their lives.

                        "Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by David TK Haye » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:25:39

I am working with the world food program and other agencies - what are YOU
doing to further your pursuit of USPA?  Or are you just complaining?
TK


Quote:

> "SKydive City/Z-Hills" wrote

> > If you expect USPA to keep 'up to date' copies of everything at any
given
> > time, then even that is unrealistic.  We are a moving sport, with
training
> > and license ratings changing, documentation changing almost daily thru
the
> > good work of committees , instructors and members, and the FAI, FAA, IPC
> > just to mention a few.  So just drop it.

> He did not ask if the USPA kept up to date copies. They do, as they
should.
> He asked if you kept copies at your DZ for students, and whomever else
> wanted one, for free. Do you?

> > They produce a good product, if you need the 'latest', then pick up the
> > phone and request it instead of ***ing at it.  No one is going to
> deliver
> > it to your door and no one is going to produce it daily without some
> > outrageous expense, of which you all seem to have a grievance as well.

> Yes, it is a good product. Not great by any means, but good. It has
already
> been produced, probably at less than great expense, and that particular
> expense was paid for by US. Not looking for "to my door" delivery, just a
> downloadable link to the FULL SIM. This contains information we are
REQUIRED
> to know, as members. Why must we pay for it twice?

> > Does microsoft deliver the latest rpoduct to you for free - no, and you
> > sometimes have to get off your ass to go find out what that is.  and
maybe
> > make a phone call or two to find out,  don't be so lazy.

> Is Micro$oft a not-for-profit company? If it was, and you were a member,
and
> YOUR money went to research that software, would you be pissed about
having
> to pay for it, knowing full well it was your money that developed it?

> > Organization is not out of control and the fact that we have a manual
with
> > ongoing revisions is proof that they do actually serve the membership,
not
> > parlaying against it as you suggest.

> OK, could you please quote the EXACT SIM text for me? Remember, this is
> information you are EXPECTED to know. You paid to compile this
information.
> You paid for the computers it was typed into. You paid for the software on
> those computers. Hell, you paid the salary of those who typed it into the
> computer. Now you have to pay, again, to see what your employee typed into
> your program, on your computer, that is plugged into an outlet that you
pay
> the electric bill on?

> > As far as free copies of any documentation, I am not sure what the
comment
> > means - somehow I am supposed to fill in the gap just because you cannot
> get
> > something for free when you think it should be?  Would YOU provide the
> world
> > with free copies?  If not, then you are about as low as I am......

> We are not asking for free copies. Copies incur the additional expense of
> printing. This should be paid. We are asking for FULL access to the SIM,
> which happens to contain the BSRs, also known as our BIBLE. Yes, I would
> provide free, DOWNLOADABLE copies to the world. Many students in the past
> year have used my personal, downloaded and printed, copy of the 2001 SIM
to
> study for their liscense exams. Why? Because I was the ONLY one on the DZ
> with a current copy. One, I might add, that i would not have had, had I
been
> forced to pay for it. How can you know if you broke a BSR, if you have no
on
> site access to what the BSRs even are?

> > Don't be surprised if things cost money to produce, that is a fact of
> life,
> > I am surprised that someone could make such narrow-minded comments,
> > TK

> Yes, Mr. Hayes, things cost money to produce. This one in particular has
> been payed for, by us. I will not pay twice for information I am REQUIRED
to
> know.

> Mr. Hayes, what are YOU doing to help prevent the meaningless death of
30000
> children today?

> Reverend James Manny
> posted and mailed




> > > >certainly I will be the first to resign my membership and ratings,
quit
> > > >skydiving and develop a plot to assassinate some poor unfortunate
over
> > the
> > > >production of a manual.

> > > >30000 children starved to death in the world yesterday and 30000 more
> > will
> > > >today - and you are 'seething' over a book.

> > > >get real

> > > If you think Treetop is seething over just a book, then you are
clearly
> > > unable to see that the book is just one more example, in a long list
of
> > > examples, of just how far our organization is out of control, and has
> > moved
> > > away from serving the average member.

> > > But since it is "just a book" can we assume you provide up to date
free
> > > copies to jumpers there? No? Didn't think so.

> > > Oh, Treetop is as real as anybody I know that posts on the wreck.

> > > Tom B

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by David TK Haye » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:30:54


Quote:

> Do you own Microsoft? WE ***ING OWN USPA LOCK STOCK AND BARREL!!!!!!
> That work is OURS. We OWN it. And they want to sell us our own property
> through GM's!!!!!!

Then get off your ass and start typing, start updating the web pages and
offer your services to solve the problem, all I see is ***ing - no
constructive offering of how to solve the problem.  I expect they are all
sitting around all day at USPA HQ doing nothing - so no wonder they must
have gobs of time to jump every time you need something done.

When I call, I get what I want, when I write, I get what I want (as a
MEMBER, not a DZO), have you bothered?  Or do you prefer just to fight?

They don't want to SELL you your property, they want to make sure enough $$
are there to cover the cost of the next one.

paper or not, it costs $$ to produce, I am sure they can provide you with a
detailed and audited budget to see where that cost lies.
TK

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Alan Binnebos » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:40:37


Quote:
> certainly I will be the first to resign my membership and ratings, quit
> skydiving and develop a plot to assassinate some poor unfortunate over the
> production of a manual.

> 30000 children starved to death in the world yesterday and 30000 more will
> today - and you are 'seething' over a book.

> get real

So if you care so much about those children, what are YOU doing about them?
Maybe do all of the above mentioned items and use the money to buy food and
medicine?
--
Blue Skies,
Alan Binnebose
 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Alan Binnebos » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:44:37

TKs a big dumb blowhard.  Treat him as such.

--
Blue Skies,
Alan Binnebose


Quote:

> "SKydive City/Z-Hills" wrote

> > If you expect USPA to keep 'up to date' copies of everything at any
given
> > time, then even that is unrealistic.  We are a moving sport, with
training
> > and license ratings changing, documentation changing almost daily thru
the
> > good work of committees , instructors and members, and the FAI, FAA, IPC
> > just to mention a few.  So just drop it.

> He did not ask if the USPA kept up to date copies. They do, as they
should.
> He asked if you kept copies at your DZ for students, and whomever else
> wanted one, for free. Do you?

> > They produce a good product, if you need the 'latest', then pick up the
> > phone and request it instead of ***ing at it.  No one is going to
> deliver
> > it to your door and no one is going to produce it daily without some
> > outrageous expense, of which you all seem to have a grievance as well.

> Yes, it is a good product. Not great by any means, but good. It has
already
> been produced, probably at less than great expense, and that particular
> expense was paid for by US. Not looking for "to my door" delivery, just a
> downloadable link to the FULL SIM. This contains information we are
REQUIRED
> to know, as members. Why must we pay for it twice?

> > Does microsoft deliver the latest rpoduct to you for free - no, and you
> > sometimes have to get off your ass to go find out what that is.  and
maybe
> > make a phone call or two to find out,  don't be so lazy.

> Is Micro$oft a not-for-profit company? If it was, and you were a member,
and
> YOUR money went to research that software, would you be pissed about
having
> to pay for it, knowing full well it was your money that developed it?

> > Organization is not out of control and the fact that we have a manual
with
> > ongoing revisions is proof that they do actually serve the membership,
not
> > parlaying against it as you suggest.

> OK, could you please quote the EXACT SIM text for me? Remember, this is
> information you are EXPECTED to know. You paid to compile this
information.
> You paid for the computers it was typed into. You paid for the software on
> those computers. Hell, you paid the salary of those who typed it into the
> computer. Now you have to pay, again, to see what your employee typed into
> your program, on your computer, that is plugged into an outlet that you
pay
> the electric bill on?

> > As far as free copies of any documentation, I am not sure what the
comment
> > means - somehow I am supposed to fill in the gap just because you cannot
> get
> > something for free when you think it should be?  Would YOU provide the
> world
> > with free copies?  If not, then you are about as low as I am......

> We are not asking for free copies. Copies incur the additional expense of
> printing. This should be paid. We are asking for FULL access to the SIM,
> which happens to contain the BSRs, also known as our BIBLE. Yes, I would
> provide free, DOWNLOADABLE copies to the world. Many students in the past
> year have used my personal, downloaded and printed, copy of the 2001 SIM
to
> study for their liscense exams. Why? Because I was the ONLY one on the DZ
> with a current copy. One, I might add, that i would not have had, had I
been
> forced to pay for it. How can you know if you broke a BSR, if you have no
on
> site access to what the BSRs even are?

> > Don't be surprised if things cost money to produce, that is a fact of
> life,
> > I am surprised that someone could make such narrow-minded comments,
> > TK

> Yes, Mr. Hayes, things cost money to produce. This one in particular has
> been payed for, by us. I will not pay twice for information I am REQUIRED
to
> know.

> Mr. Hayes, what are YOU doing to help prevent the meaningless death of
30000
> children today?

> Reverend James Manny
> posted and mailed




> > > >certainly I will be the first to resign my membership and ratings,
quit
> > > >skydiving and develop a plot to assassinate some poor unfortunate
over
> > the
> > > >production of a manual.

> > > >30000 children starved to death in the world yesterday and 30000 more
> > will
> > > >today - and you are 'seething' over a book.

> > > >get real

> > > If you think Treetop is seething over just a book, then you are
clearly
> > > unable to see that the book is just one more example, in a long list
of
> > > examples, of just how far our organization is out of control, and has
> > moved
> > > away from serving the average member.

> > > But since it is "just a book" can we assume you provide up to date
free
> > > copies to jumpers there? No? Didn't think so.

> > > Oh, Treetop is as real as anybody I know that posts on the wreck.

> > > Tom B

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Tom » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:47:05

Quote:

>Then get off your ass and start typing, start updating the web pages and
>offer your services to solve the problem, all I see is ***ing - no
>constructive offering of how to solve the problem.

Several have offered the solution. Simply take the copy of the file used to
print the manual, and put it on the website. Jan put in on her site in a
couple of minutes. Is our national office so incompetent that they can't
manage it? It would take all of 5 minutes about once a year or however often
the SIM changes. That is all people are asking for.

Nobody has to re-write anything. The file is already updated before sending
it to the printer. There is absolutely no reason, be it cost, technology, or
time, that the website can't be kept up to date with the version used to
create the printed version.  None. There is absolutely no excuse for a
website's version to be behind that of a printed book that takes weeks to
print and distribute.

This is not about time or effort. It is about money. How else can you
explain the stated concern that members are violating copyright by giving
copies to friends?

Tom B

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by JimB » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:42:15

Quote:
>Subject: Re: ' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

>> 30000 children starved to death in the world yesterday and 30000 more will
>> today - and you are 'seething' over a book.

Hey TK...you offer advice regarding "the book".....what have you done about
feeding those 30,000 starving kids, besides shoot your mouth off on an
inconsequential NG ?

A NG that Chris Needles mentioned in his Capitol Commentary I might add.

  jim
D-10154
former hoe
Man small... why fall ? Skies call... thats all.

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Tom » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:51:19

Quote:

>now all of you pissing moaning whiners - do not forget to THANK USPA and
JAN
>for such great work in such a shorty period of time, DELIVERING on the
>members request without so much as a complaint or an increase in ANY
fee....
>good work
>TK

By the way. Jan's example of how quickly and easily a SIM can be put on the
web surely blows a hole in the theory that USPA can't do so, because of lack
of resources. When it is that easy to do, and that useful for the
membership, why other than money would they not do so?

Tom B

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Pete » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:24:20

Quote:

> > Great for online use, but that's about it.  Cross-references nicely.
They
> > took some pieces and pdf'd them since some of those tables would be a
***
> > in HTML.

> effortless...
> via conversion utility
> -Shane

Sure, but with a table that complex, I'm not sure you could count on it
displaying correctly on every browser out there.
 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Pete » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:27:54

"Rev Jim" wrote ...

Quote:

> > PS:  If you think it's all about money, why not ask them how much profit
> > they generate per copy?
> Well, since they sell in bulk for as low as $15 each, including shipping,
I
> would say it's AT LEAST $8.50 per copy at full price. Now, we all know
> there's a markup in there somewhere. as far as paying for the research,
man
> hours to type it in to Adobe Acrobat, ect, that has already been payed
for.
> WE payed for it. WE pay those wages. In actuality, the profit made on the
> SIMs sold is 100%, minus actual printing costs.

Are you somehow privy to the USPA budget?
Can you specify exactly how much is allocated for SIM development, printing,
stocking, etc?
Do we even know how much development is done through paid vs. donated time?

Sounds like some questions for MWTB.  Maybe there should be MWHQ (Mondays
With HeadQuarters) so we can ask them these questions.

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Craig Poxo » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:25:52

Quote:

> Whatever you may think of the SIM, be glad it's not like the BPA
> operations manual.


> > Yes, it is a good product. Not great by any means, but good.

I don't think the two can be directly compared but why do you say that John?
Harping on about the helmets rule again? At least it's free to download from
the Association's website. And it's issued in sections and filed in folders
so relevant sections can be easily updated without haveing to replace the
whole manual.

--
Craig
D11665 FSB5
http://www.poxon.org/Craig/Skydive/