' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by SKydive City/Z-Hill » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 05:39:09


now all of you pissing moaning whiners - do not forget to THANK USPA and JAN
for such great work in such a shorty period of time, DELIVERING on the
members request without so much as a complaint or an increase in ANY fee....
good work
TK


Quote:

> > Piece o' cake:

> > wget -r -l1 -O-

http://www.uspa.org/Publications/SIM/SIMtext/Skydivers_Information_Ma...
03.htm | html2ps | lp
Quote:

> Tony - most folk have no idea what that line means. Most people don't
> have wget either.

> THis has links to a self extracting zip file and the plain zip file of
> the HTML pages.

> http://ParachuteHistory.com/skydive/uspa/doctrine/sim.html

> So now you can have a copy on your computer.

> That ought to be worth a vote.

> --
> Jan Meyer
> http://FixMyPages.com
> http://www.ParachuteHistory.com
> http://www.MakeItHappen.com
> http://www.DiveMaker.com


 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by ynotsso » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 05:49:30

Quote:

> If you expect USPA to keep 'up to date' copies of everything at any given
> time, then even that is unrealistic.  We are a moving sport, with training
> and license ratings changing, documentation changing almost daily thru the
> good work of committees , instructors and members, and the FAI, FAA, IPC
> just to mention a few.  So just drop it.

> They produce a good product, if you need the 'latest', then pick up the
> phone and request it instead of ***ing at it.  No one is going to deliver
> it to your door and no one is going to produce it daily without some
> outrageous expense, of which you all seem to have a grievance as well.

[...]

You must still be in the age of paper typewriters.

Keeping a web site updated with the most recent version of any given
electronic document takes about the same (or less) work than you put
into your entire posting.

        tony

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' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Tom » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:14:34

Quote:

>now all of you pissing moaning whiners - do not forget to THANK USPA and
JAN
>for such great work in such a shorty period of time, DELIVERING on the
>members request without so much as a complaint or an increase in ANY
fee....
>good work
>TK

Just why in the hell would I want to thank USPA for Jan's effort to make it
available?

I bet you fit in at dropzone.com really well.

Tom B

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Rev Ji » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:21:07

"SKydive City/Z-Hills" wrote

Quote:
> If you expect USPA to keep 'up to date' copies of everything at any given
> time, then even that is unrealistic.  We are a moving sport, with training
> and license ratings changing, documentation changing almost daily thru the
> good work of committees , instructors and members, and the FAI, FAA, IPC
> just to mention a few.  So just drop it.

He did not ask if the USPA kept up to date copies. They do, as they should.
He asked if you kept copies at your DZ for students, and whomever else
wanted one, for free. Do you?

Quote:
> They produce a good product, if you need the 'latest', then pick up the
> phone and request it instead of ***ing at it.  No one is going to
deliver
> it to your door and no one is going to produce it daily without some
> outrageous expense, of which you all seem to have a grievance as well.

Yes, it is a good product. Not great by any means, but good. It has already
been produced, probably at less than great expense, and that particular
expense was paid for by US. Not looking for "to my door" delivery, just a
downloadable link to the FULL SIM. This contains information we are REQUIRED
to know, as members. Why must we pay for it twice?

Quote:
> Does microsoft deliver the latest rpoduct to you for free - no, and you
> sometimes have to get off your ass to go find out what that is.  and maybe
> make a phone call or two to find out,  don't be so lazy.

Is Micro$oft a not-for-profit company? If it was, and you were a member, and
YOUR money went to research that software, would you be pissed about having
to pay for it, knowing full well it was your money that developed it?

Quote:
> Organization is not out of control and the fact that we have a manual with
> ongoing revisions is proof that they do actually serve the membership, not
> parlaying against it as you suggest.

OK, could you please quote the EXACT SIM text for me? Remember, this is
information you are EXPECTED to know. You paid to compile this information.
You paid for the computers it was typed into. You paid for the software on
those computers. Hell, you paid the salary of those who typed it into the
computer. Now you have to pay, again, to see what your employee typed into
your program, on your computer, that is plugged into an outlet that you pay
the electric bill on?

Quote:
> As far as free copies of any documentation, I am not sure what the comment
> means - somehow I am supposed to fill in the gap just because you cannot
get
> something for free when you think it should be?  Would YOU provide the
world
> with free copies?  If not, then you are about as low as I am......

We are not asking for free copies. Copies incur the additional expense of
printing. This should be paid. We are asking for FULL access to the SIM,
which happens to contain the BSRs, also known as our BIBLE. Yes, I would
provide free, DOWNLOADABLE copies to the world. Many students in the past
year have used my personal, downloaded and printed, copy of the 2001 SIM to
study for their liscense exams. Why? Because I was the ONLY one on the DZ
with a current copy. One, I might add, that i would not have had, had I been
forced to pay for it. How can you know if you broke a BSR, if you have no on
site access to what the BSRs even are?

Quote:

> Don't be surprised if things cost money to produce, that is a fact of
life,
> I am surprised that someone could make such narrow-minded comments,
> TK

Yes, Mr. Hayes, things cost money to produce. This one in particular has
been payed for, by us. I will not pay twice for information I am REQUIRED to
know.

Mr. Hayes, what are YOU doing to help prevent the meaningless death of 30000
children today?

Reverend James Manny
posted and mailed

Quote:



> > >certainly I will be the first to resign my membership and ratings, quit
> > >skydiving and develop a plot to assassinate some poor unfortunate over
> the
> > >production of a manual.

> > >30000 children starved to death in the world yesterday and 30000 more
> will
> > >today - and you are 'seething' over a book.

> > >get real

> > If you think Treetop is seething over just a book, then you are clearly
> > unable to see that the book is just one more example, in a long list of
> > examples, of just how far our organization is out of control, and has
> moved
> > away from serving the average member.

> > But since it is "just a book" can we assume you provide up to date free
> > copies to jumpers there? No? Didn't think so.

> > Oh, Treetop is as real as anybody I know that posts on the wreck.

> > Tom B

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Rev Ji » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:34:47




Quote:

> > If you expect USPA to keep 'up to date' copies of everything at any
given
> > time, then even that is unrealistic.  We are a moving sport, with
training
> > and license ratings changing, documentation changing almost daily thru
the
> > good work of committees , instructors and members, and the FAI, FAA, IPC
> > just to mention a few.  So just drop it.

> > They produce a good product, if you need the 'latest', then pick up the
> > phone and request it instead of ***ing at it.  No one is going to
deliver
> > it to your door and no one is going to produce it daily without some
> > outrageous expense, of which you all seem to have a grievance as well.
> [...]

> You must still be in the age of paper typewriters.

> Keeping a web site updated with the most recent version of any given
> electronic document takes about the same (or less) work than you put
> into your entire posting.

And the modification of a *.pdf file requires the user to click on the icon,
open the old file, type in the changes, and save. They then upload this
"updated" file to the webserver (which may very well be onsite). Then they
need to click on the MS Frontpage icon, open up the
http://SportToday.org/, change the
text to 2003, and update the hyperlink to the "updated" file. Not counting
the actual typing involved in the *.pdf file change, the entire process
should take the average user less than 2 minutes.

Rev

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Pete » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:26:49

Treetop said...

Quote:
>       So I go to Our  USPA website today and notice that the 2003 SIMs is
> now on line.
yaay!
>       I was rather pleased to find that it is in html form for quick and
> easy viewing.

Great for online use, but that's about it.  Cross-references nicely.  They
took some pieces and pdf'd them since some of those tables would be a ***
in HTML.

Quote:
>           This important Safety  information that we each have already
anted
> up to compile is not readily available in a free downloadable printed
form!
> Am I the only one who has a problem with that?

Give it time.  They be just be slow getting around to it, as they were
getting it online in the first place.

Quote:
> This reference version of the USPA Skydiver's Information Manual is not an
> exact duplicate of the 2003 SIM. In the event of any discrepancy or to
> obtain the full text and graphics, please refer to the official, hard-copy
> version."

I didn't read the whole thing (either copy), but a perusing a few random
samplings, and looking for some figures, tables and diagrams, it seems that
it's all there.  I think that statement is part CYA and part scare
mongering.

Quote:
>              The hard copy version they are hawking to you is available
only
> in a spiral bound edition and will be obsolete right after the next BOD
> meeting!
>              You paid to compile the information. They want you to pay
again
> to have a hard copy. The hard copy ,if you choose to purchase it will be
> obsolete within 4 months.

Well, I wouldn't say that the last couple editions are completely obsolete.
They didn't change much from 2001 to 2003.  BSR changes pertain mainly to
tandem stuff (FAA medical for Tdm/I, age of majority,  some things that are
FARs or were in the manufacturer's manuals anyway, and they upped the tdm
hard deck to 4500'), except self-supervised unlicensed jumpers may be
endorsed by their instructor to jump without an RSL.

If you want to use the word obsolete, then you don't have to wait 4 months,
because the 2003 SIM still lists the jump requirement for D-license as 200.
If they already knew it's going to change, they should have added the text
"(500 jumps after Sept 2003)"

Quote:

>           I'm *Pissed-Off*!!!   I hope that you are also!!!!!!!

Not really.

As far as Dave's comments, I agree that 3-hole punch would be nice, in
addition to the spiral bound.  I think spiral has its advantages too.  It's
slightly smaller and lighter than a binder, so it fits in my gear bag pocket
when the binder won't.  You can also turn the page completely over and hold
it a little easier.  Of course the real driving factor was that it's
probably at least 47 cents a copy cheaper.

The thing about updates or errata sheets is that depending on what they used
to write the thing, it may have been easier to publish the whole thing
rather than an update packet.  Maybe they were lazy or didn't know how to
drive MS Word or whatever they used.  The other problem with updates is
inserting them into that nice sprial bound copy you bought last year!

Gotta get back to work.

BSBS

Peter

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Pete » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:27:48

PS:  If you think it's all about money, why not ask them how much profit
they generate per copy?

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Livendiv » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:33:31


Quote:
> Does microsoft deliver the latest rpoduct to you for free - no, and you
> sometimes have to get off your ass to go find out what that is.  and maybe
> make a phone call or two to find out,  don't be so lazy.

I don't pay Microsoft $70/year to keep my software current.  If I did, I
would expect them to provide that service.

Quote:
> Organization is not out of control and the fact that we have a manual with
> ongoing revisions is proof that they do actually serve the membership, not
> parlaying against it as you suggest.

You're right, they are serving the membership...the GROUP Membership.

Quote:
> As far as free copies of any documentation, I am not sure what the comment
> means - somehow I am supposed to fill in the gap just because you cannot
get
> something for free when you think it should be?  Would YOU provide the
world
> with free copies?  If not, then you are about as low as I am......

> Don't be surprised if things cost money to produce, that is a fact of
life,
> I am surprised that someone could make such narrow-minded comments,

Who said anything about free?  We each pay ~$50-$70 per year for this kind
of information.

Blues,
Dave

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Tom » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:40:24

Quote:

>If you expect USPA to keep 'up to date' copies of everything at any given
>time, then even that is unrealistic.  We are a moving sport, with training
>and license ratings changing, documentation changing almost daily thru the
>good work of committees , instructors and members, and the FAI, FAA, IPC
>just to mention a few.

Are you incapable of simple reading? USPA promised to keep it up to date,
but only in the printed version availabe for sale. A much harder task than
keeping the web page up to date, but oh how much more profitable. Nobody is
asking for daily updates. Just that the web version be as current as the
printed, and that it be downloadable and printable for use by the members
that own it.

Quote:
>So just drop it.

Ah yes. If you don't have a good position to defend, resort to telling
others to drop it. That works best at dropzone.com  Give it a try there.
They even have a mother-figure to enforce it if she likes you.

Quote:
>They produce a good product, if you need the 'latest', then pick up the
>phone and request it instead of ***ing at it.  No one is going to deliver
>it to your door and no one is going to produce it daily without some
>outrageous expense, of which you all seem to have a grievance as well.

I have not seen a single request for such delivery service. Only requests
that we have prompt maintenance of a website, which would cost far less than
printing. Far far less. Nor have I see a desire for daily updates. Only that
the web site be as current as the printed version hawked at Group Member
DZ's. Oh wait, is that why you are so upset? Profit margins slipping? Kid
need braces?

Quote:
>Does microsoft deliver the latest rpoduct to you for free - no, and you
>sometimes have to get off your ass to go find out what that is.  and maybe
>make a phone call or two to find out,  don't be so lazy.

Do you own Microsoft? WE ***ING OWN USPA LOCK STOCK AND BARREL!!!!!!
That work is OURS. We OWN it. And they want to sell us our own property
through GM's!!!!!!

Quote:
>Organization is not out of control

I stand corrected. USPA is very well controlled BY OF A SMALL NUMBER OF
LARGE GM'S!!!!!!

Quote:
>and the fact that we have a manual with
>ongoing revisions is proof that they do actually serve the membership, not
>parlaying against it as you suggest.

We have a manual? If we means GM's yes they do.  The one where the most
current version is only available for sale? Where the revisions go to the
GM's for sale before the membership that paid for it gets it on OUR website?

Quote:
>As far as free copies of any documentation, I am not sure what the comment
>means - somehow I am supposed to fill in the gap just because you cannot
get
>something for free when you think it should be?  Would YOU provide the
world
>with free copies?  If not, then you are about as low as I am......

I am not trying to defend the sale of intectual property to the people that
already legitimately own it. You are. Good luck.

Quote:
>Don't be surprised if things cost money to produce, that is a fact of life,
>I am surprised that someone could make such narrow-minded comments,

You are right of course. It is narrow minded  of us to complain that OUR
organization, uses OUR money, OUR headquarters, and OUR staff to develop OUR
SIM, and then SELL it to US so that GM's can make profit from US!!!!!!!!!

Tom Birdwell
D16842

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by ynotsso » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:39:46


[...]
Quote:
> > You must still be in the age of paper typewriters.

> > Keeping a web site updated with the most recent version of any given
> > electronic document takes about the same (or less) work than you put
> > into your entire posting.

> And the modification of a *.pdf file requires the user to click on the icon,
> open the old file, type in the changes, and save. They then upload this
> "updated" file to the webserver (which may very well be onsite).

[...]

It's actually in Austin TX as a virtual domain of Broadwing Communications,
but it just as well might be under someone's desk at HQ. That's part of the beauty
of it.

The minimal effort required (which you succinctly expressed) is about the same
in either case.

         tony

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' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by travisbost.. » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:48:42

Quote:

> I bet you fit in at dropzone.com really well.

Hahahhheahaha!
-Shane
 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by travisbost.. » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:50:59


Quote:
> I realize that full-well. My purpose was to illustrate exactly your point. Shane
> at least should have seen the light.

ohhhhh... light... beeee-yeewww-ti-fuulllll...
-Shane
 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by Rev Ji » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:11:01


Quote:

> PS:  If you think it's all about money, why not ask them how much profit
> they generate per copy?

Well, since they sell in bulk for as low as $15 each, including shipping, I
would say it's AT LEAST $8.50 per copy at full price. Now, we all know
there's a markup in there somewhere. as far as paying for the research, man
hours to type it in to Adobe Acrobat, ect, that has already been payed for.
WE payed for it. WE pay those wages. In actuality, the profit made on the
SIMs sold is 100%, minus actual printing costs.

Rev Jim

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by A7WIE » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:05:38

The SIMs can't be a large revenue stream- and even if it was- That should be
because it is sold with enhancements- special binder/study guides/include any
updates for a set time period.

Current standard and procedures should be in a bare bones PDF on the site for
all 'members'. It should be updated and 100% current with the latest revisions
with a note-last updated on next scheduled revisions on X date.

If the cost to buy adobe acrobat- is too high ($200) then they should check
into shareware- I downloaded a conversion program for $20 that would convert
the MS Word/Quark whatever into a PDF.

To leverage this as a revenue stream is more trouble than its worth.

Blue Skies and Calm Seas,
Andrew

 
 
 

' At's what I'm talkin'about!!!

Post by travisbost.. » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:46:20

Quote:

> 30000 children starved to death in the world yesterday and 30000 more will
> today - and you are 'seething' over a book.
> get real

What the hell are you doing HERE then?  Get
over there and help them your heartless animal!
-Shane