New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by Chris » Sun, 18 Oct 2009 07:11:44


Wow, this topic makes me realize cycling has changed so much...

I have been through the "boutique" vs..whatever and the biggest
problem I have with plain old wheels was that there are no longer many
decent mechanics. I did not maintain a large work area for the bike so
it was easy to justify pre-built wheels.

The thing is that I think the collection of wheel on the market is
more ridiculous than ever. There are no really decent wheels for
reasonable prices.

I have a generic Asian pair of wheels with 20 spokes in the rear, and
I pulled a spoke through the rim. The wheels have maybe 10,000 miles
so I think the hub is probably fine.

Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
can buy as a rim? There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
look for?

Another thought was that since these will be asymmetric (even if I did
not keep its mate up front, I have at least 5 front wheel in the same
size / type, I just never trash front wheels) so it would be cool if I
could beef up the rear with something like 50mm, or something in
between the 30mm rim I will replace. I will consider hybrid materials
too.

Any suggestions would be appreciated, and also welcome to email
direct.

Thanks in advance!

 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by Norma » Sun, 18 Oct 2009 09:57:23


Quote:
>  There are no really decent wheels for
> reasonable prices.

Decent?  Reasonable?

Quote:
> Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
> can buy as a rim?

Oh, ok, decent means <28 spokes.  I used to putt
around on some bontrager aero-track wheels that
had a mere 16 spokes.  I didn't like 'em.  I have
heard from others that they sell replacement rims.
You'll probably have to talk to a bontrager dealer,
so go in lubed up and pliable.

Lots of dentists think that $4k+ serottas are quite
reasonable.

 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by Chal » Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:26:34

Quote:

> Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
> can buy as a rim? There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
> almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
> wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
> look for?

Alex DA28 is a good, strong, affordable deep section rim.  If you can
find it in 20 hole, that would be a fine choice.

The Velocity Deep-V is almost certainly the easiest rim to find in
your requisite drilling.  It's overpriced for what it is, but it is
well proven and consistent-- a safe bet.  It has been used with
reasonable success on wheels with as few as 16 spokes.

The Velocity B43 would be a better choice, even considering its
increased cost over the Deep-V, but to my knowledge that rim has not
been made in 20 hole drilling.

Chalo

 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by Hank » Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:49:06


Quote:

> > Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
> > can buy as a rim? There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
> > almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
> > wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
> > look for?

> Alex DA28 is a good, strong, affordable deep section rim. ?If you can
> find it in 20 hole, that would be a fine choice.

> The Velocity Deep-V is almost certainly the easiest rim to find in
> your requisite drilling. ?It's overpriced for what it is, but it is
> well proven and consistent-- a safe bet. ?It has been used with
> reasonable success on wheels with as few as 16 spokes.

> The Velocity B43 would be a better choice, even considering its
> increased cost over the Deep-V, but to my knowledge that rim has not
> been made in 20 hole drilling.

> Chalo

Nor has the B43 been made with machined sidewalls, thus restricting
you to the anodized versions (silver and black only, IIRC) and not the
powder-coated ones.

Make sure your brake pads have orbital adjustment, too, because the
sidewalls are not parallel.

 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by thirty-si » Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:58:57


Quote:
> I have a generic Asian pair of wheels with 20 spokes in the rear, and
> I pulled a spoke through the rim.

Why did you do that?

Quote:
> Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
> can buy as a rim?

Probably.  You will need to forgoe either reliabilty or be penalised
on weight over greater spoke counts.

Quote:
> There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
> almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
> wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
> look for?

I think that a 450g rim would not provide sufficient rim stiffness for
reliable running in a 20 spoke wheel.  Whatever you choose, using
2.0mm (14swg) spokes will be preferrential to any lesser spoke.

Quote:

> Another thought was that since these will be asymmetric (even if I did
> not keep its mate up front, I have at least 5 front wheel in the same
> size / type, I just never trash front wheels) so it would be cool if I
> could beef up the rear with something like 50mm, or something in
> between the 30mm rim I will replace. I will consider hybrid materials
> too.

Using either more or a heavier spoke gauge in the rear you can keep
you rims similar between front and rear.  You may also like to
consider whether a bigger tyre is needed, this will go someway to
protect a delicate wheel.
 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by Qui si parla Campagnol » Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:03


Quote:
> Wow, this topic makes me realize cycling has changed so much...

> I have been through the "boutique" vs..whatever and the biggest
> problem I have with plain old wheels was that there are no longer many
> decent mechanics. I did not maintain a large work area for the bike so
> it was easy to justify pre-built wheels.

> The thing is that I think the collection of wheel on the market is
> more ridiculous than ever. There are no really decent wheels for
> reasonable prices.

> I have a generic Asian pair of wheels with 20 spokes in the rear, and
> I pulled a spoke through the rim. The wheels have maybe 10,000 miles
> so I think the hub is probably fine.

> Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
> can buy as a rim? There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
> almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
> wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
> look for?

> Another thought was that since these will be asymmetric (even if I did
> not keep its mate up front, I have at least 5 front wheel in the same
> size / type, I just never trash front wheels) so it would be cool if I
> could beef up the rear with something like 50mm, or something in
> between the 30mm rim I will replace. I will consider hybrid materials
> too.

> Any suggestions would be appreciated, and also welcome to email
> direct.

> Thanks in advance!

Might try this one. The closest you are going to come for a heavy
enough rim for ony 20 spokes. Comes in 20h.

http://www.velocityusa.com/default.asp?contentID=583

 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by landotte » Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:42:58



Quote:

> > Wow, this topic makes me realize cycling has changed so much...

> > I have been through the "boutique" vs..whatever and the biggest
> > problem I have with plain old wheels was that there are no longer many
> > decent mechanics. I did not maintain a large work area for the bike so
> > it was easy to justify pre-built wheels.

> > The thing is that I think the collection of wheel on the market is
> > more ridiculous than ever. There are no really decent wheels for
> > reasonable prices.

> > I have a generic Asian pair of wheels with 20 spokes in the rear, and
> > I pulled a spoke through the rim. The wheels have maybe 10,000 miles
> > so I think the hub is probably fine.

> > Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
> > can buy as a rim? There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
> > almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
> > wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
> > look for?

> > Another thought was that since these will be asymmetric (even if I did
> > not keep its mate up front, I have at least 5 front wheel in the same
> > size / type, I just never trash front wheels) so it would be cool if I
> > could beef up the rear with something like 50mm, or something in
> > between the 30mm rim I will replace. I will consider hybrid materials
> > too.

> > Any suggestions would be appreciated, and also welcome to email
> > direct.

> > Thanks in advance!

> Might try this one. The closest you are going to come for a heavy
> enough rim for ony 20 spokes. Comes in 20h.

> http://www.velocityusa.com/default.asp?contentID=583

When you add in spokes and general PITAssness, it's about the same
amount of bux to get a commodity 32H 105/Tiagra/OP/Alex rear wheel and
be done with it.
 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by Chris » Mon, 19 Oct 2009 05:39:35


Quote:

> > I have a generic Asian pair of wheels with 20 spokes in the rear, and
> > I pulled a spoke through the rim.

> Why did you do that?

To get to the other side.

Quote:

> > Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
> > can buy as a rim?

> Probably. ?You will need to forgoe either reliabilty or be penalised
> on weight over greater spoke counts.

Same old thing, but I should have been more specific. I was hoping /
expecting deeper rims for stronger spokes might come to the market
since the design principals are well-established on "systems" wheels.
There is really no reason why I can not, for example, buy a Campy Bora
rim and roll my own wheels. I mean some "boutique" wheels did / do
require unusual tools or techniques, but most significant is choosing
the right combination of components (just as all other wheel, except
pulled from smaller sets of parts rather than being 80%
interchangeable.

Quote:

> > There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
> > almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
> > wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
> > look for?

> I think that a 450g rim would not provide sufficient rim stiffness for
> reliable running in a 20 spoke wheel. ?Whatever you choose, using
> 2.0mm (14swg) spokes will be preferrential to any lesser spoke.

Run-o-the-mill designs are marginal, but I am a conscientious and
smooth rider.  I should have been more clear about looking out for
products or ideas that may have slipped by in the past few years. The
wheels I admire the most are the Campy G3. Some are over-priced, but
the original Eurus was a kick ass design with just ordinary materials.
The "G" should stand for "genius".

Quote:

> > Another thought was that since these will be asymmetric (even if I did
> > not keep its mate up front, I have at least 5 front wheel in the same
> > size / type, I just never trash front wheels) so it would be cool if I
> > could beef up the rear with something like 50mm, or something in
> > between the 30mm rim I will replace. I will consider hybrid materials
> > too.

> Using either more or a heavier spoke gauge in the rear you can keep
> you rims similar between front and rear. ?You may also like to
> consider whether a bigger tyre is needed, this will go someway to
> protect a delicate wheel.

Good call, I tell people the same thing as I use 25s for all but race
day (which is rare these days). I also run them at 90 psi no problems.
So yeah, you guys are a bit smarter than the average bear(s).

Let me put it this way; are there any new designs or implementations
(strategies, paradigms etc) in getting a bit more performance without
getting in to NASA materials? Are there any new "high value" (reduced
costs) for materials once reserved for NASA?

Mavic and others building wheels that can not even be serviced in the
field (at one end of the spectrum) and at the other end, nothing
really new? Is that the deal?

I do appreciate some of your suggestions, and it is not like I "know-
it-all" (I just don't know what I don't know, you know?) Are there any
rims in the 40MM plus range? You know the American Classic 420 rim,
and the ....(name forgotten...) the other boutique wheels use the same
rim but I have never seen them for sale elsewhere. Is it really
possible that 2 modest American boutique wheelbuilders can hog an
entire niche of a rim that seems like it should own half the market?
At 34 mm deep, the 420 gram rim can be made strong enough for almost
anyone (especialy when you can select spoke count to each
application). It makes no sense to me that this rim, or 1 or more like
it, that this entire niche is not ...not addressed.

Speaking of larger tires (25s are theoretically just under an inch,
and ever since tubulars became so rare...but anyway) are there not
some small builders who recognize width of the rim as being important?
I thought someone was offering a 23mm wide rim for road, in a 400ish
rim? Might have been ZIPP, but I think it was a "ZIPP-like" brand.

So, in summary I was hoping for maybe something like the amclassic.com
420-gram rim (that they only sell in pre-built wheels), or perhaps a
deep asymetrical rim like a cross between a Ritchey or an old
Bontrager (and some Campy etc.), or perhaps a rim with a wider
shoulder, or even a CF alloy hybrid rim that can be purchased as a
bare rim.

Or I can just build the first Mavic, Sun or Velocity rim I can get a
hold of.

Thanks for the suggestions

 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by AMuz » Mon, 19 Oct 2009 06:21:31

Quote:




>>> Wow, this topic makes me realize cycling has changed so much...
>>> I have been through the "boutique" vs..whatever and the biggest
>>> problem I have with plain old wheels was that there are no longer many
>>> decent mechanics. I did not maintain a large work area for the bike so
>>> it was easy to justify pre-built wheels.
>>> The thing is that I think the collection of wheel on the market is
>>> more ridiculous than ever. There are no really decent wheels for
>>> reasonable prices.
>>> I have a generic Asian pair of wheels with 20 spokes in the rear, and
>>> I pulled a spoke through the rim. The wheels have maybe 10,000 miles
>>> so I think the hub is probably fine.
>>> Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
>>> can buy as a rim? There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
>>> almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
>>> wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
>>> look for?
>>> Another thought was that since these will be asymmetric (even if I did
>>> not keep its mate up front, I have at least 5 front wheel in the same
>>> size / type, I just never trash front wheels) so it would be cool if I
>>> could beef up the rear with something like 50mm, or something in
>>> between the 30mm rim I will replace. I will consider hybrid materials
>>> too.
>>> Any suggestions would be appreciated, and also welcome to email
>>> direct.
>>> Thanks in advance!
>> Might try this one. The closest you are going to come for a heavy
>> enough rim for ony 20 spokes. Comes in 20h.

>> http://www.velocityusa.com/default.asp?contentID=583

> When you add in spokes and general PITAssness, it's about the same
> amount of bux to get a commodity 32H 105/Tiagra/OP/Alex rear wheel and
> be done with it.

True. Well, cheaper, actually. And probably more durable
too, with a full spoke complement. Off-the-rack cassette
rear wheels are roughly $70~90.

--
Andrew Muzi
  <www.yellowjersey.org/>
  Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by thirty-si » Tue, 20 Oct 2009 06:51:29


Quote:


> > > I have a generic Asian pair of wheels with 20 spokes in the rear, and
> > > I pulled a spoke through the rim.

> > Why did you do that?

> To get to the other side.

This doesn't surprise me.  Considering your detailed response which
followed, it was hard work readijng it all and I can't give you
specifics, here it is as I see;  28 to 36 spokes work with metal
rims.  Going less on a rear wheel is likely to be unecessarily
compromising its reliability even with the best wheel build.  You have
found it difficult to replace your rim.  Repair it.  If it is a simple
*** pull through, back up the rim with a steel rim washer.  Cut it
yourself if you cant get any (probable unless you are in India).  And
use thicker spokes, not greater tension in them.  If the wheel is not
stiff enough, you need to stabilize it, overtensioning the spokes is a
poor way to attempt to accomplish this.
Quote:
> > > Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
> > > can buy as a rim?

> > Probably. ?You will need to forgoe either reliabilty or be penalised
> > on weight over greater spoke counts.

> Same old thing, but I should have been more specific. I was hoping /
> expecting deeper rims for stronger spokes might come to the market
> since the design principals are well-established on "systems" wheels.
> There is really no reason why I can not, for example, buy a Campy Bora
> rim and roll my own wheels. I mean some "boutique" wheels did / do
> require unusual tools or techniques, but most significant is choosing
> the right combination of components (just as all other wheel, except
> pulled from smaller sets of parts rather than being 80%
> interchangeable.

> > > There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
> > > almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
> > > wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
> > > look for?

> > I think that a 450g rim would not provide sufficient rim stiffness for
> > reliable running in a 20 spoke wheel. ?Whatever you choose, using
> > 2.0mm (14swg) spokes will be preferrential to any lesser spoke.

> Run-o-the-mill designs are marginal, but I am a conscientious and
> smooth rider. ?I should have been more clear about looking out for
> products or ideas that may have slipped by in the past few years. The
> wheels I admire the most are the Campy G3. Some are over-priced, but
> the original Eurus was a kick ass design with just ordinary materials.
> The "G" should stand for "genius".

> > > Another thought was that since these will be asymmetric (even if I did
> > > not keep its mate up front, I have at least 5 front wheel in the same
> > > size / type, I just never trash front wheels) so it would be cool if I
> > > could beef up the rear with something like 50mm, or something in
> > > between the 30mm rim I will replace. I will consider hybrid materials
> > > too.

> > Using either more or a heavier spoke gauge in the rear you can keep
> > you rims similar between front and rear. ?You may also like to
> > consider whether a bigger tyre is needed, this will go someway to
> > protect a delicate wheel.

> Good call, I tell people the same thing as I use 25s for all but race
> day (which is rare these days). I also run them at 90 psi no problems.
> So yeah, you guys are a bit smarter than the average bear(s).

> Let me put it this way; are there any new designs or implementations
> (strategies, paradigms etc) in getting a bit more performance without
> getting in to NASA materials? Are there any new "high value" (reduced
> costs) for materials once reserved for NASA?

> Mavic and others building wheels that can not even be serviced in the
> field (at one end of the spectrum) and at the other end, nothing
> really new? Is that the deal?

> I do appreciate some of your suggestions, and it is not like I "know-
> it-all" (I just don't know what I don't know, you know?) Are there any
> rims in the 40MM plus range? You know the American Classic 420 rim,
> and the ....(name forgotten...) the other boutique wheels use the same
> rim but I have never seen them for sale elsewhere. Is it really
> possible that 2 modest American boutique wheelbuilders can hog an
> entire niche of a rim that seems like it should own half the market?
> At 34 mm deep, the 420 gram rim can be made strong enough for almost
> anyone (especialy when you can select spoke count to each
> application). It makes no sense to me that this rim, or 1 or more like
> it, that this entire niche is not ...not addressed.

> Speaking of larger tires (25s are theoretically just under an inch,
> and ever since tubulars became so rare...but anyway) are there not
> some small builders who recognize width of the rim as being important?
> I thought someone was offering a 23mm wide rim for road, in a 400ish
> rim? Might have been ZIPP, but I think it was a "ZIPP-like" brand.

> So, in summary I was hoping for maybe something like the amclassic.com
> 420-gram rim (that they only sell in pre-built wheels), or perhaps a
> deep asymetrical rim like a cross between a Ritchey or an old
> Bontrager (and some Campy etc.), or perhaps a rim with a wider
> shoulder, or even a CF alloy hybrid rim that can be purchased as a
> bare rim.

> Or I can just build the first Mavic, Sun or Velocity rim I can get a
> hold of.

> Thanks for the suggestions

 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by Tom Sherman °_ » Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:56:12

Quote:


>> Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
>> can buy as a rim? There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
>> almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
>> wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
>> look for?

> Alex DA28 is a good, strong, affordable deep section rim.  If you can
> find it in 20 hole, that would be a fine choice.

> The Velocity Deep-V is almost certainly the easiest rim to find in
> your requisite drilling.  It's overpriced for what it is, but it is
> well proven and consistent-- a safe bet.  It has been used with
> reasonable success on wheels with as few as 16 spokes.

> The Velocity B43 would be a better choice, even considering its
> increased cost over the Deep-V, but to my knowledge that rim has not
> been made in 20 hole drilling.

Why not use every other spoke hole in a 40-H rim?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007

 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by thirty-si » Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:54:08



Quote:


> >> Are there rims that can support a 180 lb ride with 20 spokes, that I
> >> can buy as a rim? There are plenty of wheels built to this spec, but I
> >> almost never see rims. I remember there were some 450 to 550-gram
> >> wheels in the 30mm depth range...what names (if any) can or should I
> >> look for?

> > Alex DA28 is a good, strong, affordable deep section rim. ?If you can
> > find it in 20 hole, that would be a fine choice.

> > The Velocity Deep-V is almost certainly the easiest rim to find in
> > your requisite drilling. ?It's overpriced for what it is, but it is
> > well proven and consistent-- a safe bet. ?It has been used with
> > reasonable success on wheels with as few as 16 spokes.

> > The Velocity B43 would be a better choice, even considering its
> > increased cost over the Deep-V, but to my knowledge that rim has not
> > been made in 20 hole drilling.

> Why not use every other spoke hole in a 40-H rim?

It would be treating it as asymmetric drilling which may/may not be
beneficial, it doesn't convince me.  I think it would be better should
Chris be unwilling/unable to repair his rim bey the simple addition of
a steel washer to try and source some rim blanks and drill them
himself, except if he could do that he'll have already repaired the
rim he holed.
 
 
 

New Wheel or New Rim for 20-spoke rear

Post by Chal » Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:12:25

Quote:


> > The Velocity B43 would be a better choice, even considering its
> > increased cost over the Deep-V, but to my knowledge that rim has not
> > been made in 20 hole drilling.

> Why not use every other spoke hole in a 40-H rim?

Most spoke drillings are canted to one side or the other.

40h rims seem to be as uncommon as 20h rims anymore.  As an example,
the Velocity B43 I referenced is made in 24h, 28h, 32h, 36h, and 48h
drillings according to Velocityusa.com.

Chalo