'Dale headshock any good???

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by ander.. » Sat, 25 Feb 1995 02:32:48



Quote:

> Hi Gang,

> I'm new to this newsgroup and this might be an old topic, so flame me into
> the dirt if you desire....but accept my appolgies if this is a dull topic
> by now.

> So anyway, here's the deal:  I'm in the market for a new bike and am
> interested in Cannondale (among others).  I'm wondering how people feel
> about their front suspension (I'm not considering the Super Vs).  I've
> heard very extreme opinions of Cannondale - most people I've heard from
> either love them or hate them.  The problem is that most of these people
> are shop owners/employees (obviously biased to some degree) or non-serious
> off-road riders.

> So it's time to ask the aficionados.

> So how does the front end work (do you like it)?  I'm also curious about
> frame strength too (I tend to thrash pretty hard).  How about their Coda
> line of equipment that all the bikes are fitted with?  Is that stuff any
> good or is it Cheeze Wiz?  So I guess I'm just soliciting general comments
> about Cannondales in general.

> And here's one specific question someone might feel like answering:  Are
> their non-suspended frames (with regular head tube) suspension ready? Can
> you put a suspension fork on them and not have the handling go to hell.

> If it makes any difference, I'm mostly interested in the F1000 and F700
> models (front suspension models) but am curious about putting something
> like a Judy (or equiv.) on their non-suspension frames.

> All responses are greatly appreciated and returned!

> Thanks much

> Buck



_
My friend just bought a new F700. It's awsome! The shock is great. It
feels diferently from a lot of shocks (probably because it has no flex, I
don't know). The Coda components are really just some aftermarket stuff
with the coda name on it. (Dia-Compe brakes, Sugino cranks,etc) The brakes
on his bike are eapecially good. You can stop on a dime with 1 finger. As
to your other question....I ride an M700 with a Manitou 3. I love it, and
I've had no problems. Your looking at a great bike either way.


home page at http://www.theporch.com/~danders

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by ander.. » Sat, 25 Feb 1995 02:38:02


Quote:

> Hi Gang,

> I'm new to this newsgroup and this might be an old topic, so flame me into
> the dirt if you desire....but accept my appolgies if this is a dull topic
> by now.

> So anyway, here's the deal:  I'm in the market for a new bike and am
> interested in Cannondale (among others).  I'm wondering how people feel
> about their front suspension (I'm not considering the Super Vs).  I've
> heard very extreme opinions of Cannondale - most people I've heard from
> either love them or hate them.  The problem is that most of these people
> are shop owners/employees (obviously biased to some degree) or non-serious
> off-road riders.

> So it's time to ask the aficionados.

> So how does the front end work (do you like it)?  I'm also curious about
> frame strength too (I tend to thrash pretty hard).  How about their Coda
> line of equipment that all the bikes are fitted with?  Is that stuff any
> good or is it Cheeze Wiz?  So I guess I'm just soliciting general comments
> about Cannondales in general.

> And here's one specific question someone might feel like answering:  Are
> their non-suspended frames (with regular head tube) suspension ready? Can
> you put a suspension fork on them and not have the handling go to hell.

> If it makes any difference, I'm mostly interested in the F1000 and F700
> models (front suspension models) but am curious about putting something
> like a Judy (or equiv.) on their non-suspension frames.

> All responses are greatly appreciated and returned!

> Thanks much

> Buck



_
My friend just bought a new F700. It's awsome! The shock is great. It
feels diferently from a lot of shocks (probably because it has no flex, I
don't know). The Coda components are really just some aftermarket stuff
with the coda name on it. (Dia-Compe brakes, Sugino cranks,etc) The brakes
on his bike are eapecially good. You can stop on a dime with 1 finger. As
to your other question....I ride an M700 with a Manitou 3. I love it, and
I've had no problems. Your looking at a great bike either way.

ERIC


home page at http://www.theporch.com/~danders

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Buck Buchan » Sat, 25 Feb 1995 05:44:03

Hi Gang,

I'm new to this newsgroup and this might be an old topic, so flame me into
the dirt if you desire....but accept my appolgies if this is a dull topic
by now.

So anyway, here's the deal:  I'm in the market for a new bike and am
interested in Cannondale (among others).  I'm wondering how people feel
about their front suspension (I'm not considering the Super Vs).  I've
heard very extreme opinions of Cannondale - most people I've heard from
either love them or hate them.  The problem is that most of these people
are shop owners/employees (obviously biased to some degree) or non-serious
off-road riders.

So it's time to ask the aficionados.

So how does the front end work (do you like it)?  I'm also curious about
frame strength too (I tend to thrash pretty hard).  How about their Coda
line of equipment that all the bikes are fitted with?  Is that stuff any
good or is it Cheeze Wiz?  So I guess I'm just soliciting general comments
about Cannondales in general.

And here's one specific question someone might feel like answering:  Are
their non-suspended frames (with regular head tube) suspension ready? Can
you put a suspension fork on them and not have the handling go to hell.

If it makes any difference, I'm mostly interested in the F1000 and F700
models (front suspension models) but am curious about putting something
like a Judy (or equiv.) on their non-suspension frames.

All responses are greatly appreciated and returned!

Thanks much

Buck



 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Chee » Sat, 25 Feb 1995 08:58:41

Quote:
>> Hi Gang,

>> So anyway, here's the deal:  I'm in the market for a new bike and am
>> interested in Cannondale (among others).  I'm wondering how people feel
>> about their front suspension (I'm not considering the Super Vs).

 Good bikes in general. I got one.

Quote:
>> So how does the front end work (do you like it)?  I'm also curious about
>> frame strength too (I tend to thrash pretty hard).  How about their Coda
>> line of equipment that all the bikes are fitted with?  Is that stuff any
>> good or is it Cheeze Wiz?  So I guess I'm just soliciting general comments
>> about Cannondales in general.

 Coda is usually Sugino stuff. The levers are really Dia-Compe I think. The
frames are mega-stiff. Strong? I believe so. Anyhow, C'dale will give you a
new one if it breaks faster than you can say "Damn, I broke it." I have full
suspension, so I don't worry to much.

Quote:
>> If it makes any difference, I'm mostly interested in the F1000 and F700
>> models (front suspension models) but am curious about putting something
>> like a Judy (or equiv.) on their non-suspension frames.

 Actually it does make a diference. The F700 has an elastomer headshock with
two positions, Lockout(stiff) and Shock.  The 1000 has an air/oil shock with 4
positions, Lockout plus three successive dampening positions. Really good
adjustability. I ride the air/oil and enjoy the adjustability on the fly.
Never quite figured out why other shocks don't lock out. Works wonders when
you're in the curb jumping mood! However, the elastomer ones are great too.  I
have no experience with putting other shocks on stiff frames from C'dale.
Can't help you there. Hope I helped somehow.

Todd.

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by David Yackne » Mon, 27 Feb 1995 17:50:13


Quote:
rochester.edu (Steveq Kang) writes:

>If you get the F1000 it comes with 501M cranks which are not Sugino cranks,
>but really trick single piece CNC cranks made by the same people who made
>(super expensive) MagicMotor/CODA cranks.

Perhaps, but I'm not impressed with the CODA 501's.  I sell 'Dales, and this
is one of the few parts I don't like.  They weigh over 600g, and that's
pretty high compared to something like RaceFace which is 435g.

However, other Cannondale/CODA stuff works really well.  I used to ride one
until it got stolen.

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Tim Barn » Tue, 28 Feb 1995 23:01:29

: Hi Gang,

: I'm new to this newsgroup and this might be an old topic, so flame me into
: the dirt if you desire....but accept my appolgies if this is a dull topic
: by now.

: So anyway, here's the deal:  I'm in the market for a new bike and am
: interested in Cannondale (among others).  I'm wondering how people feel
: about their front suspension (I'm not considering the Super Vs).  I've
: heard very extreme opinions of Cannondale - most people I've heard from
: either love them or hate them.  The problem is that most of these people
: are shop owners/employees (obviously biased to some degree) or non-serious
: off-road riders.

Two of my friends have got air/oil headshok suspension bikes, so i do have some
experience with them. Firstly when they're working they're great, no stiction
and a good feel to the suspension, I've also ridden Pace, AMP, Girvin, Rock
Shox 21 and Manitou (in descending order of time) and would rate the headshok
as highly as any fork i've ridden in terms of suspension. I don't think you'll
be disappointed.

        The problems arise when they need maintenance, the headshok
suspension has big stickers all over it proclaiming that it needs to be sent
back to cannondale to be serviced, this could be bullshit as i have heard
of someone on usenet (Rob Horowitz?) who's taken his apart, although I'm still
not certain how far he got. Anyway my friend's bike was still under warranty
when he lost his damping so his shok was sent back to cannondale in holland
for six weeks to be fixed, this was a bit of a pain as it was the middle
of summer, (un)luckily I'd broken some ribs at about the same time so I lent
him my bike for a while.

        Next problem, which I feel is the worst as it is very likely to affect
all owners of the bike, the cartridge bearings in his headset developed lots
of play, solution new bearings, cost around 40 pounds for the pair (this
would usually translate to $40 in the US.) as they're non-standard. Not too
surprising, I don't suppose there are too many applications for small bearings
in large diameter races. (This happened after he'd had the bike six months)

        I don't know how common these problems are, my other friend with
one hasn't had any problems, but then he's hasn't ridden his anywhere
near as much as the problem bike. Certainly a factor to bear in mind though.

        cheers, Tim.

        p.s. I should also add that the cartridge bearings seem
a very inappropriate design for a headset, difficult to explain but here goes.
The bearing is contained between two races which press into the frame and onto
the fork, in cross-section they look something like this: (o), where o=bearing
contained between two races, (a bracket is a pretty good shape for the bearing
surface). The bearing fits like this:

      f|(o)|           |(o)|f
      r|   |  Headshok |   |r
      a.   .           .   .a
      m|   |           |   |m
      e|(o)|           |(o)|e

It seems clear to me that these bearings will be very bad at supporting the
loads applied to them ie  ^   | this kind of load, and would be much better
                          |(o)| suited for something like a hub or bottom
                          |   v bracket, where they're commonly used.
any comments?.

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Tucker Snedeke » Wed, 01 Mar 1995 15:52:06

Hey! This might interest you and other C'dale owners

I am not the biggest fan of the head shok

I work in a shop in NJ that sells Cannodales and the air oil ones
seem to blow their seals way too often.  A fellow shop member races
DH on a Super V and got tired of this problem.  To remedy it we have
come up with a product which he has used in several downhill races
and will soon be available to you.  It is an adaptor kit to retrofit
any shock fork to a C'Dale headshok frame.  We are also have a 5inch
plus long travel solution in the works.  If you interested in getting
on of these adaptors contact me at 219 289-5975 and I'll give ya the
details.

Also make Carbon Fiber chain tensioners for Super V's and other high
swing arm bikes (patent pending).  

Call
Evolution Racing
(Tucker) at (219) 289-5975 or (908) 222-4180 and leave your name and
number and I get back to you dh fast!!!

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Tucker Snedeke » Fri, 03 Mar 1995 14:42:22

 Just to be fair I thought that I would point out that the head shok is
on of the best forks I have every ridden when it is working properly.
There is virtually zero sticktion and it performs like a ridgid fork.

The new elastomer version (out late last summer) has excellent action
and you don't have to worry about seals.  I will be interestion to
see if their DH team uses the head shok consistently this year or if
the Judy ends up on their bikes again?  This will be a sure sign that
the problems with seals has been resolved.  Certailly the handling on
a Head shok will out perform a Judy by virtue of its superior
design (one unit to move instead of two which can move independently.)

Only travel and seals keep this fork from placing it in a class by
itself.  Cannodale has prototype 3' versions and it is probably just
a matter of time before the bugs have been worked out and Cannondale
reestablishes themselves as the standard of the industry for all to
try and elevate to.

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Jason Eva » Sun, 26 Feb 1995 01:58:45



: > So how does the front end work (do you like it)?  I'm also curious about
: > frame strength too (I tend to thrash pretty hard).  How about their Coda
: > line of equipment that all the bikes are fitted with?  Is that stuff any
: > good or is it Cheeze Wiz?  So I guess I'm just soliciting general comments
: > about Cannondales in general.

The frames are very strong, although quite rigig (no give).  The components are generally quite good, although if you ride seriously, you'll wear out anything but the very best of components very quickly.
: >
: > And here's one specific question someone might feel like answering:  Are
: > their non-suspended frames (with regular head tube) suspension ready? Can
: > you put a suspension fork on them and not have the handling go to hell.

The Cannondale suspension is probably the best design on the market.  Two things make them stand out: 1) no flex, 2) lock-out capability.  
: >
: > If it makes any difference, I'm mostly interested in the F1000 and F700
: > models (front suspension models) but am curious about putting something
: > like a Judy (or equiv.) on their non-suspension frames.

I have an M800 and rode with a Manitou II for a couple of years.  It worked well, but note that the Manitous (other than EFC) do not change the geometry of a normal bike, whereas Rock Shox do.  I now have an EFC, which works fine on my bike since M800's are so unstable to begin with.  I would definitely go with the F700 or F1000 though if I was getting a new bike.

--
                                          _
                                         (_)
                                         |-\
                                  O |      /\_
                     __O           \/     < (_)
                   _'\ <_         _/\__
                  (_)/ (_)          |
                  /-------\         |
     __O         /         |
  _'\  <_    /---          |
 (_)/  (_)  / Jason Evans   \
-----------/  U of Idaho    |

"If it can't be broken... then have fun trying!!" \
--------------------------------------------------|

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Chee » Sat, 04 Mar 1995 10:56:00

Quote:

>....
>itself.  Cannodale has prototype 3' versions and it is probably just
>....

Wow, THREE FEET of travel!!  That's one big bike!!!

Just kidding. The opportunity lended itself..:-)  BTW, I have the air/oil
Headshock, and I WOULD like a little more travel (but not 3 feet), and I HAVE
broken the seal out twice. It sucks that way, but I did get new cartridges
*free* both times. Peace.

Todd.

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Robert Horvatic » Sat, 25 Feb 1995 23:30:46


Quote:
> Hi Gang,

> So anyway, here's the deal:  I'm in the market for a new bike and am
> interested in Cannondale (among others).  I'm wondering how people feel
> about their front suspension (I'm not considering the Super Vs).  I've
> heard very extreme opinions of Cannondale - most people I've heard from
> either love them or hate them.  The problem is that most of these people
> are shop owners/employees (obviously biased to some degree) or non-serious
> off-road riders.

I think you will find in general the people that love them have put a
lot of miles & time on them.  The people that hate them don't generally
like fat tubes and at best did the parking lot ride for 10 minutes
(not a good source of objective info).  Next time you get negative
feedback on the bike, ask how much personal experience they have with it.
This should tell you where they are coming from.

Quote:
> So how does the front end work (do you like it)?  I'm also curious about
> frame strength too (I tend to thrash pretty hard).

Most everybody has concluded that Cannondales headshok work very well.  
Very smooth and responsive to both small and large hits.  Torsionally
stiffer than any dual slider fork.  They make upgrading internals a snap
and are working out details to make fine tuning them easier.  General
adjustability of things like preload is very simple and fast.  Their
on-the- fly lockout switch is a great option as well.  Their frames
can handle quite a bit of abuse.  If you ever happen to need warranty
service, they are extremely good with that as well.

Quote:
> And here's one specific question someone might feel like answering:  Are
> their non-suspended frames (with regular head tube) suspension ready? Can
> you put a suspension fork on them and not have the handling go to hell.

Cannondale makes a lot of different frame styles with and without the headshok.
The M series or the Killer V might be what you are looking for.  Yes, they
are suspension ready.  Get your hands on a '95 catalog.  

Quote:
> If it makes any difference, I'm mostly interested in the F1000 and F700
> models (front suspension models) but am curious about putting something
> like a Judy (or equiv.) on their non-suspension frames.

Hey whatever you feel is best.  Do yourself a favor and try to get
some time in with the headshok and a Judy if you can.  This should
tell you what you are looking for.

Good luck in your decision

email:                           |"You can't take life too seriously,

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Robert Horvatic » Wed, 01 Mar 1995 07:12:19

Quote:


> : Hi Gang,
>    The problems arise when they need maintenance, the headshok
> suspension has big stickers all over it proclaiming that it needs to be sent
> back to cannondale to be serviced, this could be bullshit as i have heard
> of someone on usenet (Rob Horowitz?) who's taken his apart, although I'm still
> not certain how far he got. Anyway my friend's bike was still under warranty
> when he lost his damping so his shok was sent back to cannondale in holland
> for six weeks to be fixed, this was a bit of a pain as it was the middle
> of summer, (un)luckily I'd broken some ribs at about the same time so I lent
> him my bike for a while.

Yeah, I think you mean Rob Horvatich.  Anyway, it has been COMPLETELY
disassembles and properly assembled for the record.  It can be done.
It was the elastomer unit but that is just a matter of what shock
cartridge you have.  I would not recommend it for the mechanically
declined.  I am a mechanical engineer, kids, don't try this
at home. :)  It is not complicated, just tricky to get all the
needle bearings aligned simultaneously while assembling it. Anyway, I had
good reason to service my internals. It sucked some dirt through a hole
in the shock boot and I felt most comfortable making sure all was
squeaky clean before the unit self destructed.  I spoke with Scott
Montgomery briefly about the my new bike, Super V, and some developments
with the Headshok.  He mentioned that Cannondale is working on making
the unit more user serviceable/tunable as far as things like elastomer
changes, changing oil, oil level mods. ect...  Definitely more good
things to come from them.

Quote:
>    I don't know how common these problems are, my other friend with
> one hasn't had any problems, but then he's hasn't ridden his anywhere
> near as much as the problem bike. Certainly a factor to bear in mind though.

After my one season with these bearings I have found no problems.
Like always, YMMV.

Quote:
>    p.s. I should also add that the cartridge bearings seem
> a very inappropriate design for a headset, difficult to explain but here goes.
> The bearing is contained between two races which press into the frame and onto
> the fork, in cross-section they look something like this: (o), where o=bearing
> contained between two races, (a bracket is a pretty good shape for the bearing
> surface). The bearing fits like this:

>       f|(o)|           |(o)|f
>       r|   |  Headshok |   |r
>       a.   .           .   .a
>       m|   |           |   |m
>       e|(o)|           |(o)|e

> It seems clear to me that these bearings will be very bad at supporting the
> loads applied to them ie  ^   | this kind of load, and would be much better
>                           |(o)| suited for something like a hub or bottom
>                           |   v bracket, where they're commonly used.
> any comments?.

This depends on what the bearing is designed for.  There are cartridge
bearings that are designed primarily for such thrust loads.  The internal
bearing surfaces are oriented a little differently as to account for better
load carrying capacity. Regular cartridge bearings are capable of
handling thrust loads as well.  The problem that exists for cartridge
bearing in the headset also exist for regular headset bearings.  The bearing
operates basically in a static situation causing no lubrication to be
circulated through the bearing.  No hydrodynamic lubricating
effects. Constant pounding with the balls in one position and no
lubrication being circulated has an adverse effect the bearings and the
races.  You must admit that it does make for a very smooth and adjustment
free headset.

Have a good one......Rob

email:                           |"You can't take life too seriously,

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Buck Buchan » Wed, 08 Mar 1995 04:59:21

Hey kids,

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input.  I had no idea so many
people would reply to my post.  This is really a positive newsgroup (I
wish I could say that about all the groups I frequent).

There are lots a good points to consider.  I must say that I'm not a whole
lot more decisive now than I was a week or so ago but I certainly know a
lot more.  At least now I have a knowledge base to make a decison on which
helps a lot.

Thank you a whole lot and happy riding to you all!

Buck


 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Frog » Wed, 08 Mar 1995 14:03:01

Well, first off, the F700 does NOT come with an air/oil shock. Only the F1000
and the Super V 2000 do. So the guy that said he didn't like his F700 with the
air/oil shock either got a NEW cartridge stuck in, or he thinks he got
something he didn't. All the other bikes have oil dampened ELASTOMER
Headshoks. Maybe this is why you don't like it? Or maybe yours is bad, it's
possible.

Also, before I got into MTB'ing, Cannondale WAS all I knew about MTB's. I had
no idea what a Specialized was until I was into it. And I still don't think
they are near being the "standard" as much as C'dale has been. C'dale has
always been a, if not thee, major presence in MTBs. Not that Specialized is
all that bad, just a little generic in my opinion. (Go ahead, flame me. It's
just an opinion, as yours is.)

Every magazine and every test has praised the Headshok (of both types) above
conventional double-blade suspension (Manitou, Rock Shox, Marzocchi). Now I
don't trust magazines any more than anyone else, but it's something.

 
 
 

'Dale headshock any good???

Post by Marcus Heppn » Tue, 07 Mar 1995 22:45:03



: : > So how does the front end work (do you like it)?  I'm also curious about
: : > frame strength too (I tend to thrash pretty hard).  How about their Coda
: : > line of equipment that all the bikes are fitted with?  Is that stuff any
: : > good or is it Cheeze Wiz?  So I guess I'm just soliciting general comments
: : > about Cannondales in general.

I bought a F700 with a air/oil system last year. It was a real bad idea,
because the suspension didn't worked as good as an manitou or an
rock-shocks system. So don't buy it. If you really wonna buy a
Cannondale, buy a KillerV with a manitou 4 or an rock-shock Mag 21 thar
stuff will work really good.

: The frames are very strong, although quite rigig (no give).  The components are generally quite good, although if you ride seriously, you'll wear out anything but the very best of components very quickly.
: : >
: : > And here's one specific question someone might feel like answering:  Are
: : > their non-suspended frames (with regular head tube) suspension ready? Can
: : > you put a suspension fork on them and not have the handling go to hell.

: The Cannondale suspension is probably the best design on the market.  Two things make them stand out: 1) no flex, 2) lock-out capability.  
: : >
: : > If it makes any difference, I'm mostly interested in the F1000 and F700
: : > models (front suspension models) but am curious about putting something
: : > like a Judy (or equiv.) on their non-suspension frames.

: I have an M800 and rode with a Manitou II for a couple of years.  It worked well, but note that the Manitous (other than EFC) do not change the geometry of a normal bike, whereas Rock Shox do.  I now have an EFC, which works fine on my bike since M800's
 are so unstable to begin with.  I would definitely go with the F700 or F1000 though if I was getting a new bike.

: --
:                                         _
:                                        (_)
:                                        |-\
:                                 O |      /\_
:                    __O           \/     < (_)
:                  _'\ <_         _/\__
:                 (_)/ (_)          |
:                 /-------\         |
:      __O       /         |
:   _'\  <_    /---          |
:  (_)/  (_)  / Jason Evans   \
: -----------/  U of Idaho    |

: "If it can't be broken... then have fun trying!!" \
: --------------------------------------------------|