"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Clive Georg » Wed, 09 Dec 2009 05:39:25



Quote:
> $70 a 25-year unit versus $485 a 15-year unit.
...
> If you want to illuminate the environment, whether by headlights or street
> lights, ya gotta pay. I'm happy for you to spend your money on bicycle
> lights - don't spend mine on street lights. Which makes a lumen-for-penny
> comparison of LEDs versus other light sources far more relevant than a
> watt-for-watt comparison.
> That's what I'm getting at.

Try doing one, even with the cuttting-edge technology you're using there.
Right now, not taking into account infrastructure costs, if the electricity
costs are factored in it's only slightly in favour of the HPS. But these
lights aren't going to stay at $485 - put them in proper production and that
cost is only going one way.

Do the sums yourself, rather than blustering.

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Chal » Wed, 09 Dec 2009 06:04:00

Quote:



> >> http://SportToday.org/

> > I don't understand what you are getting at by this. ?White LED is a
> > better quality light source than high-pressure sodium, but it is not
> > categorically more power-efficient. ?Low-pressure sodium lighting is
> > more efficient yet, and even worse in light quality.

> > To my knowledge, there is no form of high-pressure sodium lighting
> > that can be carried on a bicycle, let alone powered by a pair of AA
> > cells. ?However much it may excel in terms of lumens per watt, it does
> > not qualify as a bicycle light.

> > Are you suggesting that bicycle lighting should be more pre***ly
> > yellow like street lighting? ?Note that there are high efficiency,
> > high flux amber LEDs that operate at full power with less than 3 volts
> > to the emitter. ?I have used amber Luxeon LEDs in combination with a
> > larger number of white Luxeon LEDs for better color rendition in
> > portable sign lighting. ?I experimented with adding red LED light as
> > well, but it did not help significantly for the signs I was
> > illuminating.

> $70 a 25-year unit versus $485 a 15-year unit.
> As with any fixture, maintenance will still be required for wires, brackets,
> knockdowns, adjustments, periodic cleaning, animal damage, pole maintenance,
> and potentially earlier fixture replacement (12 - 15 years) vs. today's
> replacement cycle of 20-25 years.

> If you want to be seen by other road users, display a simple and cheap light
> for safety - any old LED will do although the law has a colour requirement,
> white front and red rear. If you want to illuminate the environment, whether
> by headlights or street lights, ya gotta pay. I'm happy for you to spend
> your
> money on bicycle lights - don't spend mine on street lights. Which makes a
> lumen-for-penny comparison of LEDs versus other light sources far more
> relevant than a watt-for-watt comparison.
> That's what I'm getting at.

Just to be clear, are you aware that you're posting to
rec.bicycles.tech, rec.bicycles.misc, and uk.rec.cycling?

And are you aware that everybody else here is talking about on-bike
lighting?

Just curious.

Chalo

P.S.-- There's something wrong with your reply formatting.  It's a
hassle to clean it up for you.

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Androcle » Wed, 09 Dec 2009 06:44:17


Quote:



> >> http://SportToday.org/

> > I don't understand what you are getting at by this. White LED is a
> > better quality light source than high-pressure sodium, but it is not
> > categorically more power-efficient. Low-pressure sodium lighting is
> > more efficient yet, and even worse in light quality.

> > To my knowledge, there is no form of high-pressure sodium lighting
> > that can be carried on a bicycle, let alone powered by a pair of AA
> > cells. However much it may excel in terms of lumens per watt, it does
> > not qualify as a bicycle light.

> > Are you suggesting that bicycle lighting should be more pre***ly
> > yellow like street lighting? Note that there are high efficiency,
> > high flux amber LEDs that operate at full power with less than 3 volts
> > to the emitter. I have used amber Luxeon LEDs in combination with a
> > larger number of white Luxeon LEDs for better color rendition in
> > portable sign lighting. I experimented with adding red LED light as
> > well, but it did not help significantly for the signs I was
> > illuminating.

> $70 a 25-year unit versus $485 a 15-year unit.
> As with any fixture, maintenance will still be required for wires,
> brackets,
> knockdowns, adjustments, periodic cleaning, animal damage, pole
> maintenance,
> and potentially earlier fixture replacement (12 - 15 years) vs. today's
> replacement cycle of 20-25 years.

> If you want to be seen by other road users, display a simple and cheap
> light
> for safety - any old LED will do although the law has a colour
> requirement,
> white front and red rear. If you want to illuminate the environment,
> whether
> by headlights or street lights, ya gotta pay. I'm happy for you to spend
> your
> money on bicycle lights - don't spend mine on street lights. Which makes a
> lumen-for-penny comparison of LEDs versus other light sources far more
> relevant than a watt-for-watt comparison.
> That's what I'm getting at.

Just to be clear, are you aware that you're posting to
rec.bicycles.tech, rec.bicycles.misc, and uk.rec.cycling?

And are you aware that everybody else here is talking about on-bike
lighting?

Just curious.

Chalo

======================================
Yes, I'm aware, but I didn't start the thread. Are you aware
you are cross-posting to sci.physics? Everybody else here
talks about whatever floats their boat; the subject of LEDs
has nothing to do with bicycles.
=======================================

P.S.-- There's something wrong with your reply formatting.  It's a
hassle to clean it up for you.
=======================================
Wrong, there is nothing wrong with my formatting, the hassle is all
Google breaking into usenet (which was here long before Google).
  http://SportToday.org/
If you don't like Google causing a hassle I'd suggest you stay
out of usenet and stick to Google Groups.
Are you aware you have a gmail address and I don't have any
trouble when writing to normal people?

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Androcle » Wed, 09 Dec 2009 06:25:34


Quote:





>>>> A pair of AA NiMH rechargeable batteries contains about 5 watt-hours
>>>> of energy, and it is inexpensive and easy to substitute if it fails in
>>>> an emergency. This energy source allows a headlight to have a very
>>>> convenient pocketable shape and size. To reap these benefits, you
>>>> have to accept the energy limitation-- which makes a watt-for-watt
>>>> comparison of LEDs versus other light sources quite relevant. In my
>>>> analysis, quantity of light per watt is the most important measure of
>>>> a bicycle light source.
>>> ===========================================
>>> http://SportToday.org/

>> I don't understand what you are getting at by this.  White LED is a
>> better quality light source than high-pressure sodium, but it is not
>> categorically more power-efficient.  Low-pressure sodium lighting is
>> more efficient yet, and even worse in light quality.

>> To my knowledge, there is no form of high-pressure sodium lighting
>> that can be carried on a bicycle, let alone powered by a pair of AA
>> cells.  However much it may excel in terms of lumens per watt, it does
>> not qualify as a bicycle light.

>> Are you suggesting that bicycle lighting should be more pre***ly
>> yellow like street lighting?  Note that there are high efficiency,
>> high flux amber LEDs that operate at full power with less than 3 volts
>> to the emitter.  I have used amber Luxeon LEDs in combination with a
>> larger number of white Luxeon LEDs for better color rendition in
>> portable sign lighting.  I experimented with adding red LED light as
>> well, but it did not help significantly for the signs I was
>> illuminating.

>> Chalo
>> =============================================
>> $70 a 25-year unit versus $485 a 15-year unit.
>> As with any fixture, maintenance will still be required for wires,
>> brackets, knockdowns, adjustments, periodic cleaning, animal damage, pole
>> maintenance, and potentially earlier fixture replacement (12 - 15 years)
>> vs. today's replacement cycle of 20-25 years.

>> If you want to be seen by other road users, display a simple and cheap
>> light for safety - any old LED will do although the law has a colour
>> requirement, white front and red rear. If you want to illuminate the
>> environment, whether by headlights or street lights, ya gotta pay. I'm
>> happy for you to spend your
>> money on bicycle lights - don't spend mine on street lights. Which makes
>> a lumen-for-penny comparison of LEDs versus other light sources far more
>> relevant than a watt-for-watt comparison.
>> That's what I'm getting at.

> Not very well.

You can *** off too, one line responses are most uninteresting, three
word responses even more so.
*plonk*

Do not reply to this generic message, it was automatically generated;
you have been kill-filed, either for being boringly stupid, repetitive,
unfunny, ineducable, repeatedly posting politics, religion or off-topic
subjects to a sci. newsgroup, attempting cheapskate free advertising
for profit, because you are a troll, because you responded to George
Hammond the complete fruit cake, simply insane or any combination
or permutation of the aforementioned reasons; any reply will go unread.

Boringly stupid is the most common cause of kill-filing, but because
this message is generic the other reasons have been included. You are
left to decide which is most applicable to you.

There is no appeal, I have despotic power over whom I will electronically
admit into my home and you do not qualify as a reasonable person I would
wish to converse with or even poke fun at. Some weirdoes are not kill-
filed, they amuse me and I retain them for their entertainment value
as I would any chicken with two heads, either one of which enables the
dumb bird to scratch dirt, step back, look down, step forward to the
same spot and repeat the process eternally.

This should not trouble you, many of those plonked find it a blessing
that they are not required to think and can persist in their bigotry
or crackpot theories without challenge.

You have the right to free speech, I have the right not to listen. The
kill-file will be cleared annually with spring cleaning or whenever I
purchase a new computer or hard drive.

I'm fully aware that you may be so stupid as to reply, but the purpose
of this message is to encourage others to kill-file ***wits like you.

I hope you find this explanation is satisfactory but even if you don't,
damnly my frank, I don't give a dear. Have a nice day and *** off.

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Nate Nage » Wed, 09 Dec 2009 07:04:36

Quote:




>>>> http://SportToday.org/
>>> I don't understand what you are getting at by this.  White LED is a
>>> better quality light source than high-pressure sodium, but it is not
>>> categorically more power-efficient.  Low-pressure sodium lighting is
>>> more efficient yet, and even worse in light quality.

>>> To my knowledge, there is no form of high-pressure sodium lighting
>>> that can be carried on a bicycle, let alone powered by a pair of AA
>>> cells.  However much it may excel in terms of lumens per watt, it does
>>> not qualify as a bicycle light.

>>> Are you suggesting that bicycle lighting should be more pre***ly
>>> yellow like street lighting?  Note that there are high efficiency,
>>> high flux amber LEDs that operate at full power with less than 3 volts
>>> to the emitter.  I have used amber Luxeon LEDs in combination with a
>>> larger number of white Luxeon LEDs for better color rendition in
>>> portable sign lighting.  I experimented with adding red LED light as
>>> well, but it did not help significantly for the signs I was
>>> illuminating.
>> $70 a 25-year unit versus $485 a 15-year unit.
>> As with any fixture, maintenance will still be required for wires, brackets,
>> knockdowns, adjustments, periodic cleaning, animal damage, pole maintenance,
>> and potentially earlier fixture replacement (12 - 15 years) vs. today's
>> replacement cycle of 20-25 years.

>> If you want to be seen by other road users, display a simple and cheap light
>> for safety - any old LED will do although the law has a colour requirement,
>> white front and red rear. If you want to illuminate the environment, whether
>> by headlights or street lights, ya gotta pay. I'm happy for you to spend
>> your
>> money on bicycle lights - don't spend mine on street lights. Which makes a
>> lumen-for-penny comparison of LEDs versus other light sources far more
>> relevant than a watt-for-watt comparison.
>> That's what I'm getting at.

> Just to be clear, are you aware that you're posting to
> rec.bicycles.tech, rec.bicycles.misc, and uk.rec.cycling?

> And are you aware that everybody else here is talking about on-bike
> lighting?

> Just curious.

Indeed. And those of us with hub dynamos are limited to 3W for our
lights, so lumens per watt is by FAR the most important criterion.
Lumens per dollar is also important, but many night cyclists are willing
to spend whatever it takes to be able to see well at night.  Generally,
with a hub dynamo, LEDs are really the only sensible choice, although if
you're willing to lug a battery pack that opens up other options.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://SportToday.org/

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Tom Sherman °_ » Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:52:42

Androcles WHO? ANONYMOUSLY SNIPES:

Quote:


>> [...]
>> Not very well.

> You can *** off too, one line responses are most uninteresting, three
> word responses even more so.
> *plonk*
> [...]

Hey, can I get kill-filed too?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Androcle » Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:55:12



Quote:
> Androcles WHO? ANONYMOUSLY SNIPES:


>>> [...]
>>> Not very well.

>> You can *** off too, one line responses are most uninteresting, three
>> word responses even more so.
>> *plonk*
>> [...]

> Hey, can I get kill-filed too?

Yes. No problem.
*plonk*

Do not reply to this generic message, it was automatically generated;
you have been kill-filed, either for being boringly stupid, repetitive,
unfunny, ineducable, repeatedly posting politics, religion or off-topic
subjects to a sci. newsgroup, attempting cheapskate free advertising
for profit, because you are a troll, because you responded to George
Hammond the complete fruit cake, simply insane or any combination
or permutation of the aforementioned reasons; any reply will go unread.

Boringly stupid is the most common cause of kill-filing, but because
this message is generic the other reasons have been included. You are
left to decide which is most applicable to you.

There is no appeal, I have despotic power over whom I will electronically
admit into my home and you do not qualify as a reasonable person I would
wish to converse with or even poke fun at. Some weirdoes are not kill-
filed, they amuse me and I retain them for their entertainment value
as I would any chicken with two heads, either one of which enables the
dumb bird to scratch dirt, step back, look down, step forward to the
same spot and repeat the process eternally.

This should not trouble you, many of those plonked find it a blessing
that they are not required to think and can persist in their bigotry
or crackpot theories without challenge.

You have the right to free speech, I have the right not to listen. The
kill-file will be cleared annually with spring cleaning or whenever I
purchase a new computer or hard drive.

I'm fully aware that you may be so stupid as to reply, but the purpose
of this message is to encourage others to kill-file ***wits like you.

I hope you find this explanation is satisfactory but even if you don't,
damnly my frank, I don't give a dear. Have a nice day and *** off.

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Frank Krygowsk » Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:38:13


Quote:

> > Hey, can I get kill-filed too?

> Yes. No problem.
> *plonk*

Don't believe him, Tom.  His supposed plonks are just a way to
discourage rebuttals he can't answer.  He still reads your posts, and
sometimes can't stop himself from responding.

I don't mind him reading, but the responses are as dumb and annoying
as a six-year-old at the symphony.

Bears more than a trace of jutishness, I'd say.

- Frank Krygowski

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Peter Col » Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:08:12

Quote:

> Indeed. And those of us with hub dynamos are limited to 3W for our
> lights, so lumens per watt is by FAR the most important criterion.
> Lumens per dollar is also important, but many night cyclists are willing
> to spend whatever it takes to be able to see well at night.  Generally,
> with a hub dynamo, LEDs are really the only sensible choice, although if
> you're willing to lug a battery pack that opens up other options.

The efficiency of LED's means you don't need much of a battery pack, and
continuing developments in battery technologies means that pack is light
and cheap and durable. At this point LED's have pretty much killed off
the "other options".
 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Helmut Springe » Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:18:57


Quote:
> And those of us with hub dynamos are limited to 3W for our lights,

Actually not.  The hub dynamo will happily deliver more than that,
given sufficient speed and suitable lights, e.g. two LED headlights
in series.

Quote:
> Generally, with a hub dynamo, LEDs are really the only sensible
> choice,

Yes.  Then you see the first high end cars on the market with pure
LED frontlights...LED will take over.

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer                                           panta rhei

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by N8N » Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:19:33


Quote:
> Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:04:36 -0500, Nate Nagel:

> >And those of us with hub dynamos are limited to 3W for our
> >lights,

> No. Have you measured the power uptake of current LED-lights for hub
> dynamos? Have you tried two LED-headlights connected in series?

Not yet, but I may.  I do have a Shimano hub dynamo and an IQ Cyo on
one of my bikes, but have never gone so far as to hook up an ammeter
while riding (although that is exactly the sort of thing that I would
do, mind you)

little *** was so expensive that hooking up *two* of them is not
really an option at this point...

Quote:

> Up to 8 Watt are no problem to get from a hub dynamo at higher speed.

> >so lumens per watt is by FAR the most important criterion.

> In any case. Efficiency is the key figure on every aspect on a bicycle.

Sure, but it is less of one (although still important) in some of the
stationary apps that were also being discussed.

nate

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by smhardin » Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:45:26

Quote:

> Listen up, dim bulb, if you want to illuminate asphalt then use more
> candlepower, it's that ***in' simple.

Not sure what your problem is but there must be more to it than that.

I just swapped out my 2.4/3W halogen B&M headlight for a new LED type
that I believe is a mere 1W.  The LED is superior in several ways:

   -- It comes to full brightness at a couple mph.  The halogen
      didn't get fired up until perhaps 5 mph.  This is a generator
      driven light system.
   -- The light provided is much better for my on road commuting.
      The lense shapes the light into a nice bright long rectangle
      in front of me making an excellently lighted focused area in
      front of me.
   -- The halogen bulbs burned out fairly soon.  I believe the Philips
      bulb is only good for about 100 hours of burn time.  The new LED
      is alleged to be good for 100,000 hours, so I shouldn't have to
      replace bulbs in the dark on the road again.

Peter White (http://SportToday.org/) knows
a lot about lighting and says the following:

<quote>
In the past few years, significant advances have been made in LED
headlights. The newest designs are significantly brighter than older LED
lights, and even brighter than the best 6 volt halogen systems. In fact,
some are even brighter than the 12 volt Lumotec Oval Plus 12 made for
the Dymotec 12. So why would anyone buy the Dymotec S12? The light from
an LED has a slight blue tint to it. Side by side with a halogen beam,
the halogen beam looks more yellow. And for many cyclists, particularly
some of us old gezers, the yellowish beam is more useful. We can see
more detail than we can with the bluish tinted light from the LED.
</quote>

So perhaps from a light wavelength point of view rather than brightness,
old halogens offer better detail than the "colder" LEDs, but my personal
experience with my new LED is that it is much superior to my older
halogen one.

SMH

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Frank Krygowsk » Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:56:26


Quote:

> I just swapped out my 2.4/3W halogen B&M headlight for a new LED type
> that I believe is a mere 1W. ?The LED is superior in several ways:

> ? ?-- It comes to full brightness at a couple mph. ?The halogen
> ? ? ? didn't get fired up until perhaps 5 mph. ?This is a generator
> ? ? ? driven light system.
> ? ?-- The light provided is much better for my on road commuting.
> ? ? ? The lense shapes the light into a nice bright long rectangle
> ? ? ? in front of me making an excellently lighted focused area in
> ? ? ? front of me.
> ? ?-- The halogen bulbs burned out fairly soon. ?I believe the Philips
> ? ? ? bulb is only good for about 100 hours of burn time. ?The new LED
> ? ? ? is alleged to be good for 100,000 hours, so I shouldn't have to
> ? ? ? replace bulbs in the dark on the road again.

So what LED headlight did you get?

- Frank Krygowski

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by smhardin » Fri, 11 Dec 2009 04:31:36

Quote:


>>I just swapped out my 2.4/3W halogen B&M headlight for a new LED type
>>that I believe is a mere 1W.  The LED is superior in several ways:

>>   -- It comes to full brightness at a couple mph.  The halogen
>>      didn't get fired up until perhaps 5 mph.  This is a generator
>>      driven light system.
>>   -- The light provided is much better for my on road commuting.
>>      The lense shapes the light into a nice bright long rectangle
>>      in front of me making an excellently lighted focused area in
>>      front of me.
>>   -- The halogen bulbs burned out fairly soon.  I believe the Philips
>>      bulb is only good for about 100 hours of burn time.  The new LED
>>      is alleged to be good for 100,000 hours, so I shouldn't have to
>>      replace bulbs in the dark on the road again.

> So what LED headlight did you get?

The Lumotech IQ Cyo R Plus, which is supposed to actually be
a little less bright than the similar IQ Cyo Plus.  Both have
a stand light built in.

I've got it matched to a Busch&M ller DToplight XS Plus tail
light.  It also has a stand light built in and is quite bright.
Both lights are driven by a 6V Dymotec bottle generator.

A bit pricey for sure, but I now think I've got a near permanent
solution to night riding.  Feel real good about the purchases
despite the cost.

Check out the lighting offerings mentioned at Peter White's
     http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/dymotec.asp

SMH

 
 
 

"white" LED's vs. incandescent and halogen lights

Post by Ron Peterso » Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:00:43


Quote:
> The latest fireflies from Nature now produce more than a million times the
> amount
>  of light that a compact LED produces for even less electrical power.

White LEDs can have an efficiency of 22% currently compared to a
maximum possible efficiency for white light of 37%, fireflies are only
96% efficient.

--
   Ron