Engineering Opinions on Sachs PC-91 Chain

Engineering Opinions on Sachs PC-91 Chain

Post by G.T. » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00


Quote:

>Chris Kelly doesn't race cyclocross and yet he somehow manages to build
>a pretty decent cyclocross bike. Keith Bontrager ain't a pro mountain
>biker but somehow he's managed to fumble his way through to building
>efficient racing machines.

>By the way, in the last posting you say that "nobody said you had to
>race mtn bikes in order to design them" and yet in the posting before
>that you say "without experience, design suffers horribly"

ummmm, do you have a different definition of the word "experience"?  does
experience mean:  having raced mountain bikes?

Keith races, and even if he didn't i would still buy his stuff because he
rides plenty.  that's why i lean towards Ritchey, Fisher, Bontrager and any
other company where the designers ACTUALLY RIDE!  they quickly find out what
works and what doesn't instead of relying on the public to either buy or not
buy depending on the level of marketing placed on the product.  the worst
case scenario is a product designed by non-users pushed by the best
marketers.

Quote:
>In short -- you are wrong Greg. So what else is new?

not much, and i ain't wrong.

greg thomas

 
 
 

Engineering Opinions on Sachs PC-91 Chain

Post by PFagerl » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Quote:


>> Bolinas is mtn biking, no arguments there, but to use Bolina as an
>> example of tough off-roading is absurd.

>Strange, I didn't see anyone using it as an example of TOUGH
>offroad riding.

Perhaps you need to reread JB's post that started the Tam nonsense:

".  This mountain has as steep and rocky trails as can be found anywhere as
 well as forest trails like the Bolinas Ridge Trail, that has steep
 sections with networks of exposed roots in a veritable mesh of  diagonal wet
RR tracks, when the summer fog blows through the redwoods."

Most reasonable people would regard a trail of such description as tough.
Bolinas isn't, the description doesn't fit with reality.

It's all about perception and experience. Some people go to Tahoe and ride the
very scenic Flume Trail and think that they are riding incredibly technical
terrain. If you were to the same people to Toad's or Butcher Ranch/2nd Divide
the next day the same people would be amazed at how much more difficult and
challenging (and possibly fun) other trails can be. If you were to take the
same people to North Shore BC on the third day the same people (me included)
would think that the trails were insane.

 I did see it used as an example of REAL mountain

Quote:
>biking terrain. Of course Mark was telling us that only TOUGH
>offroad terrain that requires fully suspended bikes with special
>equiment are really "mountain biking".

Tom, Tom, Tom, you certainly have a bug up your ***about Mark now don't
you?You are projecting big time. Please reference where he said that mountain
biking is only riding fully suspended bikes with special equipment (hint he
didn't and it isn't).

 News flash of the day (warning! a clue follows):

Weaver rides a hardtail. Shocker! (well, at least in the front)

See you on the trails.

Pete Fagerlin

Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time.  I think I've
forgotten this before.  -- Steven Wright

 
 
 

Engineering Opinions on Sachs PC-91 Chain

Post by G.T. » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Quote:



>>> Bolinas is mtn biking, no arguments there, but to use Bolina as an
>>> example of tough off-roading is absurd.

>>Strange, I didn't see anyone using it as an example of TOUGH
>>offroad riding.

>Perhaps you need to reread JB's post that started the Tam nonsense:

>".  This mountain has as steep and rocky trails as can be found anywhere as
> well as forest trails like the Bolinas Ridge Trail, that has steep
> sections with networks of exposed roots in a veritable mesh of  diagonal
wet
>RR tracks, when the summer fog blows through the redwoods."

>Most reasonable people would regard a trail of such description as tough.
>Bolinas isn't, the description doesn't fit with reality.

>It's all about perception and experience. Some people go to Tahoe and ride
the
>very scenic Flume Trail and think that they are riding incredibly technical
>terrain. If you were to the same people to Toad's or Butcher Ranch/2nd
Divide
>the next day the same people would be amazed at how much more difficult and
>challenging (and possibly fun) other trails can be. If you were to take the
>same people to North Shore BC on the third day the same people (me
included)
>would think that the trails were insane.

whoooo boy, north shore is very insane.  on my honeymoon last august we
drove from so cal, up the coast to oregon, washington, victoria, vancouver,
banff/jasper and back down through glacier natl park, lassen, and tahoe.  we
were in vancouver for a couple of days but i was totally burnt out (we kind
of used Vancouver to recover, and it was probably a good idea) so we just
hiked around a little to check out their trails and their trails are SICK!
check towards the beginning of the latest Bike magazine for one typical
picture.  some of the stuff looked downright deadly.  i like technical stuff
but i like interspersed between other stuff (between a lot of other stuff,
in fact).  up there it's just constant ramps, boulders, 8 ft dropoffs,
teeter-totters, logs, it's pretty intense.

Quote:
> I did see it used as an example of REAL mountain
>>biking terrain. Of course Mark was telling us that only TOUGH
>>offroad terrain that requires fully suspended bikes with special
>>equiment are really "mountain biking".

he has never said that.  if he did, it was in jest and taken out of context.
your as bad as mike vandeman at lying/trolling.

Quote:
>Tom, Tom, Tom, you certainly have a bug up your ***about Mark now don't
>you?You are projecting big time. Please reference where he said that
mountain
>biking is only riding fully suspended bikes with special equipment (hint he
>didn't and it isn't).

> News flash of the day (warning! a clue follows):

>Weaver rides a hardtail. Shocker! (well, at least in the front)

>See you on the trails.

greg thomas

 
 
 

Engineering Opinions on Sachs PC-91 Chain

Post by Tom Kunic » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Quote:



> >> Bolinas is mtn biking, no arguments there, but to use Bolina as an
> >> example of tough off-roading is absurd.

> >Strange, I didn't see anyone using it as an example of TOUGH
> >offroad riding.

> Perhaps you need to reread JB's post that started the Tam nonsense:

> "This mountain has as steep and rocky trails as can be found anywhere
> as well as forest trails like the Bolinas Ridge Trail, that has steep
> sections with networks of exposed roots in a veritable mesh of
> diagonal wet RR tracks, when the summer fog blows through the
> redwoods."

> Most reasonable people would regard a trail of such description as
> tough. Bolinas isn't, the description doesn't fit with reality.

You'll have to excuse me but using normal English usage I read that
sentence to say that Mt. Tam has as steep a terrain as you'll find
anywhere. That is true. There are sections of Tam that are sheer cliff.
There are plenty of trails that are steep and rockie. I've ridden
some that are as steep and rockie and rough as anything I've found
anywhere else.

Bolinas Trail has lots of areas that can be described exactly as
Jobst describes them.

Quote:
> Tom, Tom, Tom, you certainly have a bug up your ***about Mark now
> don't you? You are projecting big time. Please reference where he said
> that mountain biking is only riding fully suspended bikes with special
> equipment (hint he didn't and it isn't).

It is easy to say that Peter, but Mark said the following:

Dec 23 98
riding a road bike on the dirt is not mountain biking.

(I take that to mean that the only way to mountain bike is with
a mountain bike. No other bike should apply -- is that or is that
not elitist BS?)

Dec 23 98
i'd put my ability to ride ride skinny tires in the dirt right there
with anyone. it's still not mtb-ing.

(In case we didn't hear it the first time he wanted to be sure
we heard it the second time.)

Dec 24 98
maybe jobst could race the coyote classic on his road bike next year.
depending on his success, i might revise my position that riding road
bikes in the dirt is not mountain biking.

(AGAIN -- the only way to mountain bike is with a mountain bike.)

Dec 24 98
many of the really fun mtb trails would not be very much fun (for me
anyway) on a cross bike or road bike because extreme steepness or
looseness or rockiness means that a non-mtb will generally be slower
and i'll have to get off more.

(Now he's defining TERRAIN as well. So offroad riding isn't mountain
biking unless it meets certain qualifications.)

Jan 4 99
i think it's reasonable to refer to the type of riding you can do with
a mtb as "mountain biking" and refer to the type of riding you can do
with a cross/road bike as something else.

(How many times does he have to say this before you believe that he
only thinks that mountain biking can bew done with mountain bikes?)

Quote:
> Weaver rides a hardtail. Shocker! (well, at least in the front)

Well, DUH! I couldn't find the entry he made where he described
REAL(tm) mountain biking to only be over "knarly" terrain where
he considers only an MTB could pass.

Let's face it Peter, I don't have to make up anything in this
discussion. Mark has a position and he stands by it. And it is
nothing more than elitist snobbery.

 
 
 

Engineering Opinions on Sachs PC-91 Chain

Post by G.T. » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Quote:




>> >> Bolinas is mtn biking, no arguments there, but to use Bolina as an
>> >> example of tough off-roading is absurd.

>> >Strange, I didn't see anyone using it as an example of TOUGH
>> >offroad riding.

>> Perhaps you need to reread JB's post that started the Tam nonsense:

>> "This mountain has as steep and rocky trails as can be found anywhere
>> as well as forest trails like the Bolinas Ridge Trail, that has steep
>> sections with networks of exposed roots in a veritable mesh of
>> diagonal wet RR tracks, when the summer fog blows through the
>> redwoods."

>> Most reasonable people would regard a trail of such description as
>> tough. Bolinas isn't, the description doesn't fit with reality.

>You'll have to excuse me but using normal English usage I read that
>sentence to say that Mt. Tam has as steep a terrain as you'll find
>anywhere. That is true. There are sections of Tam that are sheer cliff.
>There are plenty of trails that are steep and rockie. I've ridden
>some that are as steep and rockie and rough as anything I've found
>anywhere else.

>Bolinas Trail has lots of areas that can be described exactly as
>Jobst describes them.

>> Tom, Tom, Tom, you certainly have a bug up your ***about Mark now
>> don't you? You are projecting big time. Please reference where he said
>> that mountain biking is only riding fully suspended bikes with special
>> equipment (hint he didn't and it isn't).

>It is easy to say that Peter, but Mark said the following:

>Dec 23 98
>riding a road bike on the dirt is not mountain biking.

>(I take that to mean that the only way to mountain bike is with
>a mountain bike. No other bike should apply -- is that or is that
>not elitist BS?)

literally, yes, "riding a road bike on the dirt is not mountain biking" is
mtn biking.  colloquially, no, it isn't.

Quote:
>Dec 23 98
>i'd put my ability to ride ride skinny tires in the dirt right there
>with anyone. it's still not mtb-ing.

>Dec 24 98
>many of the really fun mtb trails would not be very much fun (for me
>anyway) on a cross bike or road bike because extreme steepness or
>looseness or rockiness means that a non-mtb will generally be slower
>and i'll have to get off more.

>(Now he's defining TERRAIN as well. So offroad riding isn't mountain
>biking unless it meets certain qualifications.)

no, he's just stating an opinion that skinny tires and drop bars will not be
as fun on the trails he rides.  i don't see ANY hint of a definition there.
most of what he says there is just plain, old, common sense.

Quote:
>> Weaver rides a hardtail. Shocker! (well, at least in the front)

>Well, DUH! I couldn't find the entry he made where he described
>REAL(tm) mountain biking to only be over "knarly" terrain where
>he considers only an MTB could pass.

wow, is Kunich an alter ego of the environmental Eunuch Mike Vandeman?  the
"Well, DUH!" comment is MV's signature retort.

Quote:
>Let's face it Peter, I don't have to make up anything in this
>discussion. Mark has a position and he stands by it. And it is
>nothing more than elitist snobbery.

hardly.

greg thomas

 
 
 

Engineering Opinions on Sachs PC-91 Chain

Post by you decid » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Quote:
>FINALLY!  I can't believe how much thrashing it took to reach this
>reasonable conclusion.

all it took was about 24 posts to show the grand egos on display...tom kunich,
congrats!  you're the alpha male of this group!

if that thread is a good example of what this ng is like, i'm glad i don't read it
on a regular basis.

Quote:
>Some people go to Tahoe and ride the
>very scenic Flume Trail and think that they are riding incredibly technical
>terrain.

riding the flume trail was like riding an incredibly scenic sidewalk.

Quote:
>If you were to the same people to Toad's or Butcher Ranch/2nd Divide
>the next day the same people would be amazed at how much more difficult and
>challenging (and possibly fun) other trails can be.

mr toads and chimney rock/empire creek were a completely different animal - tons
of fun!

Quote:
>If you were to take the
>same people to North Shore BC on the third day the same people (me included)
>would think that the trails were insane.

check out the videos those nutters put out (www.kots.com).  incredible.  and one
bastard does some of the trail on a freakin' unicycle!

tim

--
To reply, remember to remove lame spam guard from the address

And then rock on, little camper.

 
 
 

Engineering Opinions on Sachs PC-91 Chain

Post by PFagerl » Fri, 08 Jan 1999 04:00:00

<snip semantic exercise about Tam.... Tom, JB was responding to posts about
Riding, and his quote was "steep and rocky trails." If you consider a cliff a
"trail" more power to you, but what a stretch that is. We OBVIOUSLY ride on
different Tams.>

Quote:
>Bolinas Trail has lots of areas that can be described exactly as
>Jobst describes them.

Poetic license or perception vs. reality

Insert TK's original claim that he conveniently snipped when replying:

"Of course Mark was telling us that only TOUGH
offroad terrain that requires fully suspended bikes with special
equiment are really "mountain biking".

<snip Tom's numerous quotes of mw, none of which support his BS above>

Quote:
>Let's face it Peter, I don't have to make up anything in this
>discussion.

It hasn't stopped you yet (go back three paragraphs)

Quote:
>Mark has a position and he stands by it. And it is
>nothing more than elitist snobbery.

You are very funny!

Pete Fagerlin

Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time.  I think I've
forgotten this before.  -- Steven Wright

 
 
 

Engineering Opinions on Sachs PC-91 Chain

Post by Tom Kunic » Fri, 08 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Quote:



> > Strange, I didn't see anyone using it as an example of TOUGH
> > offroad riding. I did see it used as an example of REAL mountain
> > biking terrain. Of course Mark was telling us that only TOUGH
> > offroad terrain that requires fully suspended bikes with special
> > equiment are really "mountain biking".

> i never said that, never implied it, and i don't think it. repeating
> it over and over doesn't make it true. since i actually do a fair
> amount of off-roading on skinny tires, it doesn't even make sense to
> ascribe such a sentiment to me. i don't even own a fully suspended
> bike. please go to the trouble of actually reading one of the posts
> in which i made this point clear. -mw

Yet you continously tell us that riding road bikes or cyclocross
bikes on trails isn't mountain biking. 10 years ago it was just
about the only mountain biking most people could get. Now we find
out that it wasn't mountain biking at all. It was SOMETHING ELSE.

So if a guy on a fully suspended bike can traverse a section
of trail faster than you does that make you less of a mountain
biker? Are you then doing SOMETHING ELSE?

 
 
 

Engineering Opinions on Sachs PC-91 Chain

Post by Tom Kunic » Fri, 08 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Quote:

> maybe you would look less like the village idiot if you tried to
> argue with what people actually said, rather than what you,
> in your foolish and deluded decrepitude, want them to have said.

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure -- and you didn't say that a mountain nike
had to be able to bike over knarly single track fast in order to be
a mountain bike. And you never said that riding cyclocross over
the same trails as a "mountain bike" wasn't mountain biking.

Right.