Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by thirty-si » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:14:42



Quote:


> > > well, within my limited experience spokes break at ***s from olde spokes like baaaaad old spokes....our poster appears headed in this direction.

> > Spokes break through bending back and forth. ?You just don't see it
> > because you are not looking close enough when the bending is
> > occurring.

> > > as the catch basin for corrosive debris at the last thread headed into *** corroded thru and SNAP uroute.

> > Spokes may and do survive well despite corrosion holes at the thread.
> > The engaged *** thread is normally softer and weaker than the spoke
> > thread or spoke of half the x-sect area. ?There is much room for
> > corrosion to have no outcome on the life of a spoke, unless there is
> > bending.

> The intriguing thing here is never a broken spoke, then twice in the
> same hole.

I cannot know without examination, but I have already given my
suspicion.

Quote:

> > > or ?combo of bent rim torque and corrosion.

> > > man needs a batch of new spokes for this summer. comprendough ?

> > While that makes the best start to a wheel build, I have used mixed
> > spokes to repair wheels without problem.

> That's why I quesitoned the rim, though there are many possible
> variables in play.

Usually the problem is seen at the rim joint on a ferruled rim as
those ferrules next to the joint be not so well formed.  An adjustment
with hammer and punch to the *** seat and to widen the hole is not
difficult.  There is a world of difference between a monkey and a
wheelbuilder.  The monkeys have mostly been replaced by  machines,
which make a more consistent average wheel.   Excellent wheels may
still be produced by hand and it is this attention which is part of
what sets them apart.  Machines like consistent dimpled rims and in
the most part these are also suited to assembly by monkeys.  Still,
they can always sell them with reference to a tension gauge.  Makes me
grin eveytime I hear of it's use.
 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by Dan » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:36:32


Quote:



> > > > well, within my limited experience spokes break at ***s from olde spokes like baaaaad old spokes....our poster appears headed in this direction.

> > > Spokes break through bending back and forth.  You just don't see it
> > > because you are not looking close enough when the bending is
> > > occurring.

> > > > as the catch basin for corrosive debris at the last thread headed into *** corroded thru and SNAP uroute.

> > > Spokes may and do survive well despite corrosion holes at the thread.
> > > The engaged *** thread is normally softer and weaker than the spoke
> > > thread or spoke of half the x-sect area.  There is much room for
> > > corrosion to have no outcome on the life of a spoke, unless there is
> > > bending.

> > The intriguing thing here is never a broken spoke, then twice in the
> > same hole.

> I cannot know without examination, but I have already given my
> suspicion.

> > > > or  combo of bent rim torque and corrosion.

> > > > man needs a batch of new spokes for this summer. comprendough ?

> > > While that makes the best start to a wheel build, I have used mixed
> > > spokes to repair wheels without problem.

> > That's why I quesitoned the rim, though there are many possible
> > variables in play.

> Usually the problem is seen at the rim joint on a ferruled rim as
> those ferrules next to the joint be not so well formed.  An adjustment
> with hammer and punch to the *** seat and to widen the hole is not
> difficult.  There is a world of difference between a monkey and a
> wheelbuilder.  The monkeys have mostly been replaced by  machines,
> which make a more consistent average wheel.   Excellent wheels may
> still be produced by hand and it is this attention which is part of
> what sets them apart.  Machines like consistent dimpled rims and in
> the most part these are also suited to assembly by monkeys.  Still,
> they can always sell them with reference to a tension gauge.  Makes me
> grin eveytime I hear of it's use.

I'm as much a monkey as the next man, but even as a monkey, I feel a
soul.

Put my soul into everything I do, and it may the force be with me (and
my wheels).

 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by datakol » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:26:01

JOIN THE TROOP, mount a helmet light.

spokes break under tension.

 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by thirty-si » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:26:40


Quote:
> JOIN THE TROOP, mount a helmet light.

> spokes break under tension.

that's unavoidable.
wheels may last 100.000 miles or more showing that it's not spoke
tension which kills them.
what does change is the amount of bending a spoke endures.
unsupported wires should be protected from bending else they will fail
(prematurely).
Attention, to ensure detisfactory service life, should therefore be
paid to the known bending (common failure) points  and efforts made to
minimise or eliminate them.  These common failure points are at the
end fixing points to the spoke.  the failure at the *** is only due
to restriction of its movement.  For the wheel to function as
intended, the ***s must be free to rock and not be restricted at
their shanks by mesaligned eyelets or a***ed build.
 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by thirty-si » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 23:00:32


Quote:




> > > > > well, within my limited experience spokes break at ***s from olde spokes like baaaaad old spokes....our poster appears headed in this direction.

> > > > Spokes break through bending back and forth. ?You just don't see it
> > > > because you are not looking close enough when the bending is
> > > > occurring.

> > > > > as the catch basin for corrosive debris at the last thread headed into *** corroded thru and SNAP uroute.

> > > > Spokes may and do survive well despite corrosion holes at the thread.
> > > > The engaged *** thread is normally softer and weaker than the spoke
> > > > thread or spoke of half the x-sect area. ?There is much room for
> > > > corrosion to have no outcome on the life of a spoke, unless there is
> > > > bending.

> > > The intriguing thing here is never a broken spoke, then twice in the
> > > same hole.

> > I cannot know without examination, but I have already given my
> > suspicion.

> > > > > or ?combo of bent rim torque and corrosion.

> > > > > man needs a batch of new spokes for this summer. comprendough ?

> > > > While that makes the best start to a wheel build, I have used mixed
> > > > spokes to repair wheels without problem.

> > > That's why I quesitoned the rim, though there are many possible
> > > variables in play.

> > Usually the problem is seen at the rim joint on a ferruled rim as
> > those ferrules next to the joint be not so well formed. ?An adjustment
> > with hammer and punch to the *** seat and to widen the hole is not
> > difficult. ?There is a world of difference between a monkey and a
> > wheelbuilder. ?The monkeys have mostly been replaced by ?machines,
> > which make a more consistent average wheel. ? Excellent wheels may
> > still be produced by hand and it is this attention which is part of
> > what sets them apart. ?Machines like consistent dimpled rims and in
> > the most part these are also suited to assembly by monkeys. ?Still,
> > they can always sell them with reference to a tension gauge. ?Makes me
> > grin eveytime I hear of it's use.

> I'm as much a monkey as the next man, but even as a monkey, I feel a
> soul.

> Put my soul into everything I do, and it may the force be with me (and
> my wheels).

Eat raw ripe fruit and green leaves everyday.  Eat lightly cooked
"vegetables", a good dollop of saturated fat , a little raw
vegetables, very little meat (if any) and a few seed (not grass,
cereal).

Monkeys do well on fruit, for monkeys, but their analytical powers are
not generally as great as man.  The consumption of saturated fat
ensures that man maintains a healthy brain .  Man may also exist
totally on fruit and make quality analytical judgement, if he can get
a good supply and eats to fullness each day.

The life force (a controlled energy) is in all living vegetable
matter.  Don't go killing it all by burning it out (cooking).   The
dark side IS browned "food" AKA burnt out, and that which so easily
becomes.  The dark side is too powerful, when taken immoderately, for
mortals, it will burn and it will kill.  It is though usefu 9in small
amounts)l to empower one who has a base of good eating (live
vegetation).  Don't get caught with the sophistry of the madical
profession and their fancy words, the dark side is acidic and it
burns.  It is the root of pain, swellings, fatigue, tumours and weak
bones.   The dark side is evil.  Stay godly, stay good and base your
eating on raw vegetation.

 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by AMuz » Fri, 12 Apr 2013 03:19:57


Quote:



>>>> well, within my limited experience spokes break at ***s from olde spokes like baaaaad old spokes....our poster appears headed in this direction.

>>> Spokes break through bending back and forth.  You just don't see it
>>> because you are not looking close enough when the bending is
>>> occurring.

>>>> as the catch basin for corrosive debris at the last thread headed into *** corroded thru and SNAP uroute.

>>> Spokes may and do survive well despite corrosion holes at the thread.
>>> The engaged *** thread is normally softer and weaker than the spoke
>>> thread or spoke of half the x-sect area.  There is much room for
>>> corrosion to have no outcome on the life of a spoke, unless there is
>>> bending.

>> The intriguing thing here is never a broken spoke, then twice in the
>> same hole.

> I cannot know without examination, but I have already given my
> suspicion.

>>>> or  combo of bent rim torque and corrosion.

>>>> man needs a batch of new spokes for this summer. comprendough ?

>>> While that makes the best start to a wheel build, I have used mixed
>>> spokes to repair wheels without problem.

>> That's why I quesitoned the rim, though there are many possible
>> variables in play.

> Usually the problem is seen at the rim joint on a ferruled rim as
> those ferrules next to the joint be not so well formed.  An adjustment
> with hammer and punch to the *** seat and to widen the hole is not
> difficult.  There is a world of difference between a monkey and a
> wheelbuilder.  The monkeys have mostly been replaced by  machines,
> which make a more consistent average wheel.   Excellent wheels may
> still be produced by hand and it is this attention which is part of
> what sets them apart.  Machines like consistent dimpled rims and in
> the most part these are also suited to assembly by monkeys.  Still,
> they can always sell them with reference to a tension gauge.  Makes me
> grin eveytime I hear of it's use.

Trevor's right but the builder would usually notice the
ferrule askew at the seam early in his build.

--
Andrew Muzi
  <www.yellowjersey.org/>
  Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by datakol » Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:36:32

ferrel askew ?

draw a shaft with a crack rsembling a mouth.

what pulls the crack as it bend off course, APART

tension.

incroyble. eat fish.

 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by thirty-si » Fri, 12 Apr 2013 23:28:47


Quote:
> ferrel askew ?

> draw a shaft with a crack rsembling a mouth.

> what pulls the crack as it bend off course, APART

> tension.

explain how you are going to be able to examine the spoke threads for
cracks every day before you ride so you know when to detension them.

explain how a tension wheel is gonna werk without tension in its wire
spokes.

Quote:

> incroyble. eat fish.

 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by thirty-si » Fri, 12 Apr 2013 23:39:11


Quote:




> >>>> well, within my limited experience spokes break at ***s from olde spokes like baaaaad old spokes....our poster appears headed in this direction.

> >>> Spokes break through bending back and forth. ?You just don't see it
> >>> because you are not looking close enough when the bending is
> >>> occurring.

> >>>> as the catch basin for corrosive debris at the last thread headed into *** corroded thru and SNAP uroute.

> >>> Spokes may and do survive well despite corrosion holes at the thread.
> >>> The engaged *** thread is normally softer and weaker than the spoke
> >>> thread or spoke of half the x-sect area. ?There is much room for
> >>> corrosion to have no outcome on the life of a spoke, unless there is
> >>> bending.

> >> The intriguing thing here is never a broken spoke, then twice in the
> >> same hole.

> > I cannot know without examination, but I have already given my
> > suspicion.

> >>>> or ?combo of bent rim torque and corrosion.

> >>>> man needs a batch of new spokes for this summer. comprendough ?

> >>> While that makes the best start to a wheel build, I have used mixed
> >>> spokes to repair wheels without problem.

> >> That's why I quesitoned the rim, though there are many possible
> >> variables in play.

> > Usually the problem is seen at the rim joint on a ferruled rim as
> > those ferrules next to the joint be not so well formed. ?An adjustment
> > with hammer and punch to the *** seat and to widen the hole is not
> > difficult. ?There is a world of difference between a monkey and a
> > wheelbuilder. ?The monkeys have mostly been replaced by ?machines,
> > which make a more consistent average wheel. ? Excellent wheels may
> > still be produced by hand and it is this attention which is part of
> > what sets them apart. ?Machines like consistent dimpled rims and in
> > the most part these are also suited to assembly by monkeys. ?Still,
> > they can always sell them with reference to a tension gauge. ?Makes me
> > grin eveytime I hear of it's use.

> Trevor's right but the builder would usually notice the
> ferrule askew at the seam early in his build.

> --
> Andrew Muzi
> ? <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> ? Open every day since 1 April, 1971

might notice, but possibly will ignore if he has the book of spell's
and the appropriate prop's.
 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by Jay Beatti » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:11:13


Quote:

> > ferrel askew ?

> > draw a shaft with a crack rsembling a mouth.

> > what pulls the crack as it bend off course, APART

> > tension.

> explain how you are going to be able to examine the spoke threads for
> cracks every day before you ride so you know when to detension them.

> explain how a tension wheel is gonna werk without tension in its wire
> spokes.

IME, spokes break at the *** due to under-tension and
misalignment.  Over tension causes spoke hole failures.  I don't know
if you can break a 14/15g DB spoke in tension without rounding the
*** first or deforming or  cracking the rim, assuming you're using
a relatively light rim. Light rims tend to get weird and difficult to
true if you really wind up spoke tension.

I broke a couple spokes in a front wheel while climbing hard out of
the saddle.  It was built on an Aerohead/Ultegra/14/15g DT spokes and,
I thought at recommended tension (100-115kgf), but when I measured it,
the tension was considerably lower.  I must have been drinking too
much beer when I built the wheel. Retensioning has made the wheel
stiffer, and I'm not getting any spoke breakage -- or rim cracking or
de-truing.  I don't recall whether I built that wheel with boiled
linseed oil, but I might have -- which would explain why it was
staying so true at a relatively low tension.

-- Jay Beattie.

 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by thirty-si » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 03:03:14


Quote:


> > > ferrel askew ?

> > > draw a shaft with a crack rsembling a mouth.

> > > what pulls the crack as it bend off course, APART

> > > tension.

> > explain how you are going to be able to examine the spoke threads for
> > cracks every day before you ride so you know when to detension them.

> > explain how a tension wheel is gonna werk without tension in its wire
> > spokes.

> IME, spokes break at the *** due to under-tension and
> misalignment. ?Over tension causes spoke hole failures.

?I don't know

Quote:
> if you can break a 14/15g DB spoke in tension without rounding the
> *** first or deforming or ?cracking the rim, assuming you're using
> a relatively light rim. Light rims tend to get weird and difficult to
> true if you really wind up spoke tension.

Yeah well that's why I went the other way (start with too little
tension) and looked for the faults (the spokes were bowing).

Quote:

> I broke a couple spokes in a front wheel while climbing hard out of
> the saddle. ?It was built on an Aerohead/Ultegra/14/15g DT spokes and,
> I thought at recommended tension (100-115kgf), but when I measured it,
> the tension was considerably lower.

spoke tension meters don't improve wheelbuilding.

Quote:
>?I must have been drinking too
> much beer when I built the wheel.

Nah, the spokes just settled in a bit, that happens when you do not
purposely set the angles at the interlacing and punch the elbows to
the flange..

Quote:
> Retensioning has made the wheel
> stiffer,

Yes.

Quote:
> and I'm not getting any spoke breakage -- or rim cracking or
> de-truing. ?I don't recall whether I built that wheel with boiled
> linseed oil, but I might have -- which would explain why it was
> staying so true at a relatively low tension.

you're certainly heading in the right direction.
 
 
 

Busting the same spoke twice, what's going on?

Post by datakol » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 08:37:02

beer ? If you trained    in    the   heat

 you'd stop fersure. The front wheel ? ahhhh you twisted the delicate spokes then allowed twisting untwisting snap

poster offered a background strobgly suggesting he bag the current spokes n buy new ones or ruin the first month.

He didnah get back on using a magnifier....yawl cannah skip mthois step 'like'; you NEED to look for cracks dude