founder & vet intervention

founder & vet intervention

Post by sally » Wed, 06 Oct 2004 19:12:45


The UCDavis School of Veterinary Medicine Book Of Horses
"Nutritional causes of founder include rapid consumption of excessive
amounts of grain, cold water after exercise or lush grass or legume
pastures.  If one of these circumstances has occurred, a veterinarian
should be called at once (before signs develop) to care for the
animal."

This sounds a tad extreme to me.  Would you call the vet immediately
if you found your horse had broken into the grain bin??  What on earth
could or would a vet do in the absence of any signs of distress?

How often does founder occur after a feed bin break in.  My
beast(normally outside 24/7) has broken in to the feed bin at least
once a year - yes mea culpa for rotten management, but I guess mea
culpa for gross negligence for not calling the vet too.

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by CMNewel » Wed, 06 Oct 2004 20:12:06



Quote:
>The UCDavis School of Veterinary Medicine Book Of Horses
>"Nutritional causes of founder include rapid consumption of excessive
>amounts of grain, cold water after exercise or lush grass or legume
>pastures.  If one of these circumstances has occurred, a veterinarian
>should be called at once (before signs develop) to care for the
>animal."

>This sounds a tad extreme to me.

Is P3 dropping through the sole extreme?
Howabout gastric rupture?

Quote:
>Would you call the vet immediately
>if you found your horse had broken into the grain bin??  

No.

Quote:
>What on earth
>could or would a vet do in the absence of any signs of distress?

Pass a nasogastric tube and lavage out some of the grain. Failing
that, pass an N/G tube and administer activated charcoal and/or
mineral oil to minimize absorption of endotoxins resulting from the
insult to the normal GI flora.

Quote:

>How often does founder occur after a feed bin break in.

More often than you'd apparently think.

Quote:
>My beast(normally outside 24/7) has broken in to the feed bin at least
>once a year - yes mea culpa for rotten management, but I guess mea
>culpa for gross negligence for not calling the vet too.

You said it yourself.
Eventually, your apparent luck may run out.
It would be nice if you had some knowledge to substitute for it.
Keep reading. The Davis book is a start.

CMNewell, DVM

"Do you realize that
world peace could be achieved with Basset Hounds?"
--Terry von Gease

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by Nancy DeMarc » Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:06:03

Quote:

>This sounds a tad extreme to me.  Would you call the vet immediately
>if you found your horse had broken into the grain bin??  

Shit, yes.  Grass too.

Quote:
>What on earth could or would a vet do in the absence of any signs of distress?

Never had a grain bin break in (no grain to break into).  But after
they ate way too much grass, the doc prescribed a low dose of
banamine.  My memory is foggy, but I think it was supposed to inhibit
MMP enzymes?  Doc? :)

Nancy DeMarco
Mason, NH

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by Claudia Wheatle » Wed, 06 Oct 2004 22:24:08

The barn where I board just lost its favorite lesson horse to founder.
No one is sure why it happened, but it took Sonny down in less than a
week. It was heartbreaking.

Let me tell you the kind of horse Sonny was: I was at a show once
without a horse of my own to ride. I was offered a chance to ride Sonny
in the WP and Western Equitation classes. I had never ridden him before,
and I didn't ride Western at all at that point, but I got on, warmed him
up for five minutes, and we went in and won the WP class. Hacked around
a little between classes, then went in and won Western Equitation. He
was that easy to ride. He tolerated rank beginners, squirmy little
children, overe***d ***agers, and bossy intermediates like me. The
stream of mourners who came to say goodbye to him the night before he
was put down was testimony to the affection he commanded.

In his case, calling the vet didn't prevent deterioration and death, but
it did mean he was humanely put down as soon as it became clear he
wasn't going to recover. IOW, he did not suffer long.

Why, when the stakes are so high, are people so reluctant to call their
vet??? There is no cosmic penalty for doing it too often, and God knows,
the cost of keeping a horse is so high the occasional unnecessary vet
bill is a drop in the bucket over the lifetime of the animal.

C

--
"Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who deserves his own special
place in hell. But that was not, in itself, a reason to go to war.
The satisfaction we take in his downfall does not hide this fact:
we have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less
secure." (John Kerry, 9/20/04)

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by Blis » Fri, 08 Oct 2004 03:14:16

If you ever lost a horse to founder, almost anything one could do to
avert it would be worth it, understanding that big expenditures are
sometimes impossible, no matter what one wishes. You have indeed been
lucky, we were not. We had a Connemara mare in a new paddock, NOT lush
grass by any means, in a rainy season. She came in and signs were
spotted immediately,the vet was called immediately, but despite 2
years of great effort on everyone's part, she was finally put down to
avoid further suffering.  In those years I wished I could have done
something that would have made for a better outcome.
Quote:

> The barn where I board just lost its favorite lesson horse to founder.
> No one is sure why it happened, but it took Sonny down in less than a
> week. It was heartbreaking.
> <text snipped>

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by Claudia Wheatle » Fri, 08 Oct 2004 04:14:59


Quote:

> If you ever lost a horse to founder, almost anything one could do to
> avert it would be worth it, understanding that big expenditures are
> sometimes impossible, no matter what one wishes.

And that sometimes even if you have the money to keep the animal going,
the kinder course is to have it humanely destroyed. I've seen foundered
horses whose owners "couldn't bear to" have them put down, and it's not
a pretty sight.

 You have indeed been

Quote:
> lucky, we were not.

Not sure what you mean by this: Sonny had to be put down. Or were you
referring to someone else's story?

 We had a Connemara mare in a new paddock, NOT lush

Quote:
> grass by any means, in a rainy season. She came in and signs were
> spotted immediately,the vet was called immediately, but despite 2
> years of great effort on everyone's part, she was finally put down to
> avoid further suffering.  In those years I wished I could have done
> something that would have made for a better outcome.



> > The barn where I board just lost its favorite lesson horse to founder.
> > No one is sure why it happened, but it took Sonny down in less than a
> > week. It was heartbreaking.
> > <text snipped>

C

--
"Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who deserves his own special
place in hell. But that was not, in itself, a reason to go to war.
The satisfaction we take in his downfall does not hide this fact:
we have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less
secure." (John Kerry, 9/20/04)

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by HHamp52 » Fri, 08 Oct 2004 05:44:16


Quote:

>And that sometimes even if you have the money to keep the animal going, the

kinder course is to have it humanely destroyed. I've seen foundered horses
whose owners "couldn't bear to" have them put down, and it's not a pretty
sight.>

You are so right Claudia. My ex husband's wonderful Appy polo pony foundered
one winter. No lush grass involved.  Oddly, he only foundered in his back feet.

We had the vet and the farrier there daily and still he kept getting worse. We
would have thrown all the money necessary if it would cure him, but it wasn't
getting better only worse.

My husband was beside himself with grief.... finally after a week of trying
everything he told me he couldn't make the decision and he left. I called the
vet and ended the suffering.

When his first polo pony, R2D2, colicked, at 36 years old, again he couldn't
make the decision. I came home from an overnight away and called the vet
immediately to come and end it. (The vet was horrible, but that's another
story)

The only thing worse than putting a horse down is watching one suffer and not
putting him down.

Hunter

http://members.aol.com/ILuvBrady/summer2004.htm

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting
"...holy shit...what a ride!"

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by Catja Pafo » Fri, 08 Oct 2004 07:07:58

Quote:

> The UCDavis School of Veterinary Medicine Book Of Horses
> "Nutritional causes of founder include rapid consumption of excessive
> amounts of grain, cold water after exercise or lush grass or legume
> pastures.  If one of these circumstances has occurred, a veterinarian
> should be called at once (before signs develop) to care for the
> animal."

Doc Newell, you're  not just a vet, you have endurance experience -
hasn't the cold water thing been debunked? Or is that advice for certain
climates?

Quote:
> This sounds a tad extreme to me.  Would you call the vet immediately
> if you found your horse had broken into the grain bin??  

If I had doubts, I'd call my vet. My vet is brilliant. My vet will
listen to what I have to say, and might say 'I'll be there immediately'
or 'I'll have a look tomorrow' or 'don't worry right now, call me again
tomorrow if you still worry or if he gets worse', depending on what the
situation demands.

Quote:
> What on earth
> could or would a vet do in the absence of any signs of distress?

Advise me on what to do with the horse and all the things others have
listed in the thread.

Quote:
> How often does founder occur after a feed bin break in.  

Nobody knows. Robert Eustace (British laminitis expert) reckons that
cases of laminitis are far more common than assumed; but that many cases
are on such a low level that the horses merely appear footy, or you see
a little red in the horse's foot and think he must have stood on a
stone...

Quote:
>My
> beast(normally outside 24/7) has broken in to the feed bin at least
> once a year - yes mea culpa for rotten management, but I guess mea
> culpa for gross negligence for not calling the vet too.

If it happens once, it's an accident. If it happens twice, it's gross
stupidity. If it happens more often than that, it's almost a foregone
conclusion. Fence the damn thing off! Why risk your horse's life?

It can happen at any time, to any horse. Sad case on our yard right now:
Shire (probably not purebred); 2yo, footy on the straight, very pottery
on turns ('he's just stiff') will point one front foot, will momentarily
drop into laminitic stance when asked to walk; not much heat in his
feet, but clear pulse.

Owner thinks he must have hurt himself running around and puts him back
into the (moderately rich) pasture. Myself (laminitic TB who made a full
recovery) and one other owner (pony who ultimately had to be put down
despite being diagnosed early) have tried to reason with her...

:-(

Catja
and the Count

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by lizzard woma » Fri, 08 Oct 2004 07:14:18

|
|| The UCDavis School of Veterinary Medicine Book Of Horses
|| "Nutritional causes of founder include rapid consumption of excessive
|| amounts of grain, cold water after exercise or lush grass or legume
|| pastures.  If one of these circumstances has occurred, a veterinarian
|| should be called at once (before signs develop) to care for the
|| animal."
|
| Doc Newell, you're  not just a vet, you have endurance experience -
| hasn't the cold water thing been debunked? Or is that advice for
| certain climates?

I don't know about debunked in re founder but I believe giving water, cold
or otherwise, to a hot horse, has been debunked in re colic.  Read that
recently somewhere.

--
love,
la mangos***a

"My favorite creationism-related poll data is the one that says 40% of poll
respondents in the United States agree with the statement 'God created the
earth about ten thousand years ago' but 91% agree with the statement
'Dinosaurs lived on the earth millions of years ago'."  (eyelessgame, 2004)

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by Joyce Reynolds-War » Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:44:15



Quote:


>>And that sometimes even if you have the money to keep the animal going, the
>kinder course is to have it humanely destroyed. I've seen foundered horses
>whose owners "couldn't bear to" have them put down, and it's not a pretty
>sight.>

>You are so right Claudia. My ex husband's wonderful Appy polo pony foundered
>one winter. No lush grass involved.  Oddly, he only foundered in his back feet.

>We had the vet and the farrier there daily and still he kept getting worse. We
>would have thrown all the money necessary if it would cure him, but it wasn't
>getting better only worse.

>My husband was beside himself with grief.... finally after a week of trying
>everything he told me he couldn't make the decision and he left. I called the
>vet and ended the suffering.

>When his first polo pony, R2D2, colicked, at 36 years old, again he couldn't
>make the decision. I came home from an overnight away and called the vet
>immediately to come and end it. (The vet was horrible, but that's another
>story)

>The only thing worse than putting a horse down is watching one suffer and not
>putting him down.

BTDT.  We didn't know the pony had a twisted gut that had gone into
peritonitis--and this was back in the 70s, before things were the way
they are now vet-wise.

*Not* an experience I care to relive.

jrw

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by Cind » Fri, 08 Oct 2004 14:26:32

Quote:



> |
> || The UCDavis School of Veterinary Medicine Book Of Horses
> || "Nutritional causes of founder include rapid consumption of excessive
> || amounts of grain, cold water after exercise or lush grass or legume
> || pastures.  If one of these circumstances has occurred, a veterinarian
> || should be called at once (before signs develop) to care for the
> || animal."
> |
> | Doc Newell, you're  not just a vet, you have endurance experience -
> | hasn't the cold water thing been debunked? Or is that advice for
> | certain climates?

> I don't know about debunked in re founder but I believe giving water, cold
> or otherwise, to a hot horse, has been debunked in re colic.  Read that
> recently somewhere.

In some edition of The Horse, the vets said research has shown it
does not cause any problems if the horse drinks when hot.  I believe
it might have added as long as the water is not icy cold and the
horse doesn't, like, drink 20 gallons of it, but I can't remember
for sure.  But it did say that horses are thirstiest when still
hot from work, and that to deny them water then can help dehydrate
them, because later when you give them water, they are no longer
as thirsty and won't drink as much.

cindi

 
 
 

founder & vet intervention

Post by M. Brumbaug » Sat, 09 Oct 2004 03:32:56


Quote:


>> The UCDavis School of Veterinary Medicine Book Of Horses
>> "Nutritional causes of founder include rapid consumption of excessive
>> amounts of grain, cold water after exercise or lush grass or legume
>> pastures.  If one of these circumstances has occurred, a veterinarian
>> should be called at once (before signs develop) to care for the
>> animal."

>Doc Newell, you're  not just a vet, you have endurance experience -
>hasn't the cold water thing been debunked? Or is that advice for certain
>climates?

They did a lot of research prior to the Atlanta Olympics and came to
the conclusion that allowing a hot horse to drink some cold water
actually helped cool the horse off by getting the cold water inside
which helps reduce core temperature.

During that period I was still training my jumper and showing.  After
lessons in the middle of August (in the Chicago area, typically upper
80's or 90's and humid) I would offer my horse a limited amount of
cold water... (No more than 1/2 gallon, I had a small bucket I used
for this purpose.) He would often drink some portion of it, sometimes
most, sometimes only a gulp or two.  

I would then use the other hosing techniques they recommended - after
hosing and scraping whole horse (you must scrape because if not the
water actually insulated the horse by trapping the heat) then
repeatedly hosing chest and inside the hind legs.  The big veins are
there and by hosing you are cooling the *** there which is then
carried inside to cool the horse.

It really worked out rather well.  And the horse cooled out and seemed
much more comforable quicker than using my previous method which was
one hose off, scrape, walk or stand as appropriate, no water.

Mollie

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