Riding A Two Year Old.

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Terri Gerge » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00


     About a week ago I put a post on rec.eq about my QH mare with size
00 feet hoping that I would get some medical advice. But instead what
I found was that the majority of posts back to me on how I was just
plain cruel for having my mare being broke to ride at age two.
     My mare is not being ridden for hours on end sweat covered til
she drops. She is ridden six days a week for no longer than 20 min. at
a time. She spends a minimum of five hours per day outside in her large
paddock and the rest of the time in a 12 X 14 stall.
    The mare has shown not only the physical attributes of being ready
to start under saddle but also the mental attributes. She is very calm
and level headed and has shown a tremendous will to learn every thing she
can. Not all two year olds are ready to start under saddle, my trainer
had to turn away six two year olds this year, all were from big name
Pleasure an d Reining sires.They were simply too immature to handle even
a small workload.
     Believe it or not western pleasure is not a bone smashing event, and
is no harder on a horses bones than trail riding. Unless the horse is not
bred or does not have the disposition for it. My mare is naturally a very
relaxed easy going mare, she has no desire to move any faster than a slow
jog, (and no it is not because she is malnourished, or too tired to work.)
     If there is any abuse of two year olds in the equine world, it is
in racing, nothing makes me more sick than watching a two year old QH
or TB race. Nothing under the age of four should be made to take abuse like t
that.
     So please, stop telling me that I abuse my horse. This mare has one
of the best learning enviroments, that will allow her to reach my goals
and hers. She has the best available Vet care should she ever need it,
and I, unlike alot of other people have not just picked a trainer at
random, or because I know of a guy that will do it cheap.
     The training that she receives now will be what stays with her the
rest of her life. These are her formative years, and I am making sure
that she gets a solid, well rounded and fair education, because she is not
only a large investment, but is one of my dearest friends.

---

Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge

 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Deborah Stevens » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00


writes:

Quote:
>     About a week ago I put a post on rec.eq about my QH mare with size
>00 feet hoping that I would get some medical advice. But instead what
>I found was that the majority of posts back to me on how I was just
>plain cruel for having my mare being broke to ride at age two.

Sounds like medical advice to me.

(snip)

Quote:
>     The training that she receives now will be what stays with her the
>rest of her life. These are her formative years, and I am making sure
>that she gets a solid, well rounded and fair education, because she is not
>only a large investment, but is one of my dearest friends.

Then what possible loss could you incur by waiting a year to start her
under saddle?  She's not going to get untrainably stupid in 12 months
just because there's nobody on her back.  The training she receives in a
year will stay with her for the rest of her life, too.  


Puzzled by precipitousness in Champaign, IL, USA

 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Martha Selle » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>I found was that the majority of posts back to me on how I was just
>plain cruel for having my mare being broke to ride at age two.

Naw.  She's not even two yet ;-)  At least summarize right,
they were saying you are cruel for having your mare ridden
before she is even 24 months.

Quote:
>     My mare is not being ridden for hours on end sweat covered til
>she drops. She is ridden six days a week for no longer than 20 min. at
>a time. She spends a minimum of five hours per day outside in her large
>paddock and the rest of the time in a 12 X 14 stall.

Good for you for turnout, babies need that.  But call UC
Davis or any major vet hospital and ask how many minutes it
takes to damage a growing horse.  15 minutes on a lunge 3x a
week can permanently damage a baby's joints, at the trot.

I don't think you are intentionally cruel.  I just think you
are doing what the QH industry encourages by having 2yo
futurities.  I do applaud them on increasing the Junior
Horse status by another year.

Quote:
>    The mare has shown not only the physical attributes of being ready
>to start under saddle but also the mental attributes.

But you stated that she is not level, her hips have outgrown
her withers.  This is a sign that she is still growing.
Even if her knees are closed, if she is growing, she can be
damaged.  The last place to quit growing is the wither/spine
area where your trainer sits 6 days a week.

Quote:
>     So please, stop telling me that I abuse my horse.

Hmmm, this is Usenet, and an unmoderated group for better or
worse.  You post, you get the replies we post.  Ignore them
if you disagree.  Call the world's best vet hospitals if you
want to disagree with the facts on physical damage.  And
post that, we are always looking to learn.

BTW, I grew up on QH's and rode 24 month olds.  Pleasure,
reining, trail...  But I did it cause my trainer said it was
ok, I had never read Equus articles or vet journal articles.
I did however (anecdote alert) see how many horses dropped
off teh circuit at 5 or 6 or continued with bute.  Oh,
except for the Pitzer horses (Two Eyed Jack's ranch home).
They started them as 3 year olds or 4 yo's and roped off
them til they were grey around the muzzle.

Quote:
> This mare has one
>of the best learning enviroments, that will allow her to reach my goals
>and hers.

Longevity of performance is undeniably enhanced by a later
start (her goal I presume, since breaking down will make her
end less pleasant).  Futurities, however, (your stated goal)
are not won by those who wait.

Quote:
>because she is not
>only a large investment, but is one of my dearest friends.

It is clear you care for this mare, so I really hope you
don't take the consensus opinion as an attack.  We just
disagree about the appropriateness of riding babies.

Martha

--
Martha Sellers
Oakland, California


 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Joshua H Mof » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00

:      About a week ago I put a post on rec.eq about my QH mare with size
: 00 feet hoping that I would get some medical advice. But instead what
: I found was that the majority of posts back to me on how I was just
: plain cruel for having my mare being broke to ride at age two.

        I have to agree with Terri.  She is obviously well informed and
isn't abusing this mare.  Although, some horses don't mature as fast as
others and their growing bones and joints wouldn't be able to take the
strain of being ridden, wise judgement and a well informed horse owner
(vet and trainer's advising) would be able to make this type of decision.
If the horse is ready, why have it standing around for an extra year
just so that it would be the "socially" acceptable age of three before
beginning any training?


 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by CA.. » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>     About a week ago I put a post on rec.eq about my QH mare with size
>00 feet hoping that I would get some medical advice. But instead what
>I found was that the majority of posts back to me on how I was just
>plain cruel for having my mare being broke to ride at age two.
>     My mare is not being ridden for hours on end sweat covered til
>she drops. She is ridden six days a week for no longer than 20 min. at
>a time. She spends a minimum of five hours per day outside in her large
>paddock and the rest of the time in a 12 X 14 stall.
>    The mare has shown not only the physical attributes of being ready
>to start under saddle but also the mental attributes. She is very calm
>and level headed and has shown a tremendous will to learn every thing she
>can. Not all two year olds are ready to start under saddle, my trainer
>had to turn away six two year olds this year, all were from big name
>Pleasure an d Reining sires.They were simply too immature to handle even
>a small workload.
>     Believe it or not western pleasure is not a bone smashing event, and
>is no harder on a horses bones than trail riding. Unless the horse is not
>bred or does not have the disposition for it. My mare is naturally a very
>relaxed easy going mare, she has no desire to move any faster than a slow
>jog, (and no it is not because she is malnourished, or too tired to work.)
>     If there is any abuse of two year olds in the equine world, it is
>in racing, nothing makes me more sick than watching a two year old QH
>or TB race. Nothing under the age of four should be made to take abuse like t
>that.
>     So please, stop telling me that I abuse my horse. This mare has one
>of the best learning enviroments, that will allow her to reach my goals
>and hers. She has the best available Vet care should she ever need it,
>and I, unlike alot of other people have not just picked a trainer at
>random, or because I know of a guy that will do it cheap.
>     The training that she receives now will be what stays with her the
>rest of her life. These are her formative years, and I am making sure
>that she gets a solid, well rounded and fair education, because she is not
>only a large investment, but is one of my dearest friends.

>---

>Public Access Internet
>The University of Lethbridge

Terri:
      You have my m***support.  I have noticed many of the req-eqers are
very conservative - which is not bad - they are being extra careful - just in
case.  Nothing wrong with that.  My own experience over the years with various
horses has been that they were all started at riding during their 2 y.o. year.
None of them went lame due to being worked early.  They all remained sound for
years.  A couple into their 20's.  However, it is important that they not be
overworked.  My S.O./trainer, switched back and forth between ring work and
trail riding.  Several of the horses went on to be successful western show
horses.  All these horses were allowed plenty of turnout time - only stalled
at night.  My trainer always said the younger horses were more receptive to
training.  He also did lots of ground work before actually riding - he liked to
 drive the youngsters, pony them over the trails, and teach them to negotiate
ring obstacles by leading them from the ground.  He turned out many nice
horses.
    Good luck, Cheryl
 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Joshua H Mof » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00



: :      About a week ago I put a post on rec.eq about my QH mare with size
: : 00 feet hoping that I would get some medical advice. But instead what
: : I found was that the majority of posts back to me on how I was just
: : plain cruel for having my mare being broke to ride at age two.

:       I have to agree with Terri.  She is obviously well informed and
: isn't abusing this mare.  Although, some horses don't mature as fast as
: others and their growing bones and joints wouldn't be able to take the
: strain of being ridden, wise judgement and a well informed horse owner
: (vet and trainer's advising) would be able to make this type of decision.
: If the horse is ready, why have it standing around for an extra year
: just so that it would be the "socially" acceptable age of three before
: beginning any training?


                I just read Martha's post.  This mare wasn't even
two when ridden?!  This is pushing it.  I don't think any horse
could have developed enough to support a rider's weight along with
their own.  It is a rare exception of a well developed two year old let
alone a yearling.  I also thought of something else.  If the quarter
horse registry is the same as the thoroughbred, aren't all horse's
birthdays Jan. 1st?  Wouldn't that make this horse ever younger?
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
                Sorry guys, I didn't read the previous posts relating to
this mare.  From now on, I'll make sure I'm more informed before I insert
my foot into my mouth. :)
                Jo Ann  

 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Jim & Laura Behni » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00

<big snip of sound advice>

Quote:
>It is clear you care for this mare, so I really hope you
>don't take the consensus opinion as an attack.  We just
>disagree about the appropriateness of riding babies.

...*especially* ones with compromised conformation- in this case, the
small feet, which will concentrate an even greater proportion of the
combined weight of horse and rider over a too-small bearing surface.

Laura Behning

 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Michael Wenloc » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00

I forgot to mention that I taped it along with the two races that
followed it. One race was Arabians as opposed to the two TB races.
E-mail me for details if you're interested.
Nancy W.
 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Corey Lee Bish » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00

:      About a week ago I put a post on rec.eq about my QH mare with size
: 00 feet hoping that I would get some medical advice. But instead what
: I found was that the majority of posts back to me on how I was just
: plain cruel for having my mare being broke to ride at age two.
:      My mare is not being ridden for hours on end sweat covered til
: she drops. She is ridden six days a week for no longer than 20 min. at
: a time. She spends a minimum of five hours per day outside in her large
: paddock and the rest of the time in a 12 X 14 stall.

She still is carrying weight on a back and legs that are not the bones
of a mature horse.  Horses don't reach physical bone maturity until age
five.  Fact.
The spiny processes do not close until then.  Fact.  

It' all depends on what you want this horse to be doing in five years or
ten years or fif*** years.

Me, I'm the conservative type.  I don't expect a baby to act like an
***.

:     The mare has shown not only the physical attributes of being ready
: to start under saddle but also the mental attributes. She is very calm
: and level headed and has shown a tremendous will to learn every thing she
: can. Not all two year olds are ready to start under saddle, my trainer
: had to turn away six two year olds this year, all were from big name
: Pleasure an d Reining sires.They were simply too immature to handle even
: a small workload.
:      Believe it or not western pleasure is not a bone smashing event, and
: is no harder on a horses bones than trail riding. Unless the horse is not
: bred or does not have the disposition for it. My mare is naturally a very
: relaxed easy going mare, she has no desire to move any faster than a slow
: jog, (and no it is not because she is malnourished, or too tired to work.)

Heck it's your horse, you can break it to ride at 10 months if you want.

You asked about her feet, you got advice on letting her mature before
you put any stress on those legs.  

While you may think that just riding her for 20 minutes at a time isn't
stressful, how do you know?  Are you willing to wait another year to let
her grow some more?  

:      If there is any abuse of two year olds in the equine world, it is
: in racing, nothing makes me more sick than watching a two year old QH
: or TB race. Nothing under the age of four should be made to take abuse like t
: that.
:      So please, stop telling me that I abuse my horse. This mare has one
: of the best learning enviroments, that will allow her to reach my goals
: and hers. She has the best available Vet care should she ever need it,
: and I, unlike alot of other people have not just picked a trainer at
: random, or because I know of a guy that will do it cheap.
:      The training that she receives now will be what stays with her the
: rest of her life. These are her formative years, and I am making sure
: that she gets a solid, well rounded and fair education, because she is not
: only a large investment, but is one of my dearest friends.

What would it waste to let her just stand around and grow for another year?

It certainly isn't going to ruin her to let her wait, much the contrary,
in fact!

: ---

: Public Access Internet
: The University of Lethbridge

Sue
--
"Inconceivable!"
"You keep using that word.  I don' think it means
what you think it means."    _The Princess Bride_
"Never underestimate the power of stupidity."  Robert Heinlein

 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Corey Lee Bish » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00



: :      About a week ago I put a post on rec.eq about my QH mare with size
: : 00 feet hoping that I would get some medical advice. But instead what
: : I found was that the majority of posts back to me on how I was just
: : plain cruel for having my mare being broke to ride at age two.

:       I have to agree with Terri.  She is obviously well informed and
: isn't abusing this mare.  Although, some horses don't mature as fast as
: others and their growing bones and joints wouldn't be able to take the
: strain of being ridden, wise judgement and a well informed horse owner
: (vet and trainer's advising) would be able to make this type of decision.
: If the horse is ready, why have it standing around for an extra year
: just so that it would be the "socially" acceptable age of three before
: beginning any training?

Bones is bones.... to paraphrase a quote....

I am certain that you can X-ray this horse and tell its age by the bones.
A two year old's bones look different than a three year old.  Socially
acceptable isn't it, it's bone maturity.  

As I said before, take a drive down to your local junior high.  Some of
those kids look mature, some don't.  Just because a twelve year old girl
LOOKS like an ***, does NOT mean she is mature!

BTW, this filly is already broke, when was/is she two?  Summer?  Spring?
That means she's not two yet.


Sue, who doesn't break her babies to ride at age two.  

--
"Inconceivable!"
"You keep using that word.  I don' think it means
what you think it means."    _The Princess Bride_
"Never underestimate the power of stupidity."  Robert Heinlein

 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Corey Lee Bish » Thu, 28 Mar 1996 04:00:00



: <big snip of sound advice>

: >It is clear you care for this mare, so I really hope you
: >don't take the consensus opinion as an attack.  We just
: >disagree about the appropriateness of riding babies.

: ...*especially* ones with compromised conformation- in this case, the
: small feet, which will concentrate an even greater proportion of the
: combined weight of horse and rider over a too-small bearing surface.

Oh, yes, I agree totally.  Navicular looking to happen.

: Laura Behning

Sue
--
"Inconceivable!"
"You keep using that word.  I don' think it means
what you think it means."    _The Princess Bride_
"Never underestimate the power of stupidity."  Robert Heinlein

 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Fill » Fri, 29 Mar 1996 04:00:00

I was going to stay out of this thread, is seemed to be getting very
heated.  But alas I just couldn't do it <s>.  I chose to not get on
one of my fillies until she was 4, she was small and immature.  I
didn't even lounge her until she was three.  Another filly I chose to
start training to a saddle at 3, she was much much larger (matured at
16.1) and more mature.  I have always thought that at 2 horses are
just too young to be in training like that, we don't ask our children
to do things that *may* harm them in the future, why ask our horses?
I noticed that the difference in my horses that I was able to choose
when to start seemed to stay more sound than the first horse I ever
got that was started at 2.  I also never noticed a difference in the
trainablity of any of them no matter what age they were started.  Of
course no matter what age they were, they were handled plenty and
taught manners at a very young age.
Thanks for the group all, I enjoy reading the threads, and have
learned many things in my short time here!
Barb
Quote:


>writes:
>>     About a week ago I put a post on rec.eq about my QH mare with size
>>00 feet hoping that I would get some medical advice. But instead what
>>I found was that the majority of posts back to me on how I was just
>>plain cruel for having my mare being broke to ride at age two.
>Sounds like medical advice to me.
>(snip)
>>     The training that she receives now will be what stays with her the
>>rest of her life. These are her formative years, and I am making sure
>>that she gets a solid, well rounded and fair education, because she is not
>>only a large investment, but is one of my dearest friends.
>Then what possible loss could you incur by waiting a year to start her
>under saddle?  She's not going to get untrainably stupid in 12 months
>just because there's nobody on her back.  The training she receives in a
>year will stay with her for the rest of her life, too.  

>Puzzled by precipitousness in Champaign, IL, USA

 
 
 

Riding A Two Year Old.

Post by Jane Kilber » Fri, 29 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>My mare is not being ridden for hours on end sweat covered til
>she drops. She is ridden six days a week for no longer than 20 min. at
>a time. She spends a minimum of five hours per day outside in her large
>paddock and the rest of the time in a 12 X 14 stall.

One of the problems in posting a query about something is that the poster
doesn't always tell a "complete" story. Then the reader uses their own
experiences for judgmental thoughts which can feel like they are negative
by the original poster.
I stayed out of the post because I didn't know how she was being worked
and all the other millions of questions I had.

Generally, one can even "start" a horse under saddle as a long yearling.
Many folks lunge with a lightweight saddle at that age. I've even seen
folks mount and dismount on a long yearling or talk 5 minute walks. There
are many factors to consider when deciding to pursue this type of
eduction.

Factors include size, weight, education to date, method of starting
horse, time, type of riding. I've ridden many a 2 year old longer than 20
minutes at a mosy walk as the horse learns to balance the rider's weight.
Overall, I find the "real" training of a horse begins as a late 2 year
older or 3 year older as they begin to loose that immature weanling mind
and begin to take on a more mature attitude, even if they are still kids.

As to the hoof size, I am not knowledgable enough to give you a
suggestion. I do know that a large bodied horse that's set on small feet
can be a predisposition to various hoof, leg and shoulder problems. But
then again, good management and care can make a difference between a lame
horse and one not lame. Some things such as navicular or laminitis may be
staved off for a number of years if one adjusts for that potentiality.

You sound like a person who is really aware of potential problems. Good
observations will help. If your mare begins to show signs of any lameness
or psychological difficulties, I'm sure you'll adjust her schedule
accordingly. Each horse is an individual and should be treated as such
within generalities.

down the sunny trails . . .
jane kilberg and her gang of spotted 4 legged critters at the
rocking double j ranch in the great nation of Tejas
member of ApHC, Sundance '500' International (Appaloosa appreciation
society)
Montgomery County *** Horse Committee