Training Question

Training Question

Post by Emily Brook » Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:16:54


Lunging a horse who is stiff to the right, who wants to lean on the right
shoulder and cut in (not dangerously), and then speeds up to stay upright.
For my safety and his, what would you folks do to keep him out on the
circle?

He was very fresh so I was not holding a lunge whip for most of this. He is
not allowed to play on the line and I was having to hold him shorter than
I'd prefer for lunging in order to maintain control. Once some of the excess
wore off, I used the whip pointed at his shoulder to hold him out and gave
him a larger circle to work in.

More experience with lunge-is-work wouldn't hurt, of course, but I really
don't lunge much. No way was I getting on this one without though!

I discussed the issue with my trainer. A gold star for the first to match
his answer :-) but I bet there's more than one way to accomplish this goal.
I'm looking for other ideas.

Emily - and Hoover (Who? Me? Fresh?)

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by Mary McHug » Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:36:42

Quote:

> Lunging a horse who is stiff to the right, who wants to lean on the right
> shoulder and cut in (not dangerously), and then speeds up to stay upright.
> For my safety and his, what would you folks do to keep him out on the
> circle?

> He was very fresh so I was not holding a lunge whip for most of this. He is
> not allowed to play on the line and I was having to hold him shorter than
> I'd prefer for lunging in order to maintain control. Once some of the excess
> wore off, I used the whip pointed at his shoulder to hold him out and gave
> him a larger circle to work in.

> More experience with lunge-is-work wouldn't hurt, of course, but I really
> don't lunge much. No way was I getting on this one without though!

> I discussed the issue with my trainer. A gold star for the first to match
> his answer :-) but I bet there's more than one way to accomplish this goal.
> I'm looking for other ideas.

> Emily - and Hoover (Who? Me? Fresh?)

Slow, slow, slow and plenty of transitions.  This is what I did with
Wilbur who had the same issues.  We'd start just like you with very much
freshness but as soon as he'd settle, we'd just slow trot->walk->slow
trot with many, many transitions.  Under saddle, many transitions
actually caused more tenseness due to an inept rider and a horse trying
darn hard to please as soon as possible but on the longe, he only had
himself to worry about and the transitions were soothing.

Once he was slow and transitioning nicely, up comes the poll, down go
the hindquarters and magically he starts staying out on the circle.
Until then, like you I used a whip pointed at his shoulder or I would
step towards him as he circled, making my own smaller circle at the center.

Mary

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by Emily Brook » Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:49:26


Quote:

> Slow, slow, slow and plenty of transitions.  This is what I did with
> Wilbur who had the same issues.  We'd start just like you with very much
> freshness but as soon as he'd settle, we'd just slow trot->walk->slow trot
> with many, many transitions.
snip

> Once he was slow and transitioning nicely, up comes the poll, down go the
> hindquarters and magically he starts staying out on the circle. Until
> then, like you I used a whip pointed at his shoulder or I would step
> towards him as he circled, making my own smaller circle at the center.

> Mary

You were watching me yesterday! Stepping toward him doesn't work yet - he
scoots forward rather than stepping away. Of course, Hoover crowds any
handler on the ground so that's a basic lack of respect for the human space.
Also in work and much better than when I bought him.

Emily

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by Ocean of Nuanc » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 00:20:14

Quote:



>> Slow, slow, slow and plenty of transitions.  This is what I did with
>> Wilbur who had the same issues.  We'd start just like you with very much
>> freshness but as soon as he'd settle, we'd just slow trot->walk->slow trot
>> with many, many transitions.
> snip
>> Once he was slow and transitioning nicely, up comes the poll, down go the
>> hindquarters and magically he starts staying out on the circle. Until
>> then, like you I used a whip pointed at his shoulder or I would step
>> towards him as he circled, making my own smaller circle at the center.

>> Mary

> You were watching me yesterday! Stepping toward him doesn't work yet - he
> scoots forward rather than stepping away. Of course, Hoover crowds any
> handler on the ground so that's a basic lack of respect for the human space.
> Also in work and much better than when I bought him.

I agree with the slow, slow, slow approach.  It sounds like he's
flinging himself around.  So he learns to fling himself around.  If he
can't get balanced within in the movement them he has to start with it
and stop if he loses it.

So what was your trainer's advice?  Did it work?

sharon

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by AKogle » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 01:43:29


Quote:
> Lunging a horse who is stiff to the right, who wants to lean on the right
> shoulder and cut in (not dangerously), and then speeds up to stay upright.
> For my safety and his, what would you folks do to keep him out on the
> circle?

Em, get the book Straightening the Crooked Horse. Those people are
really insightful and I saw changes when I started doing the
exercises. Its very interesting. Hes clearly not able to balance to
the right on the circle.

In the meantime, keep it at the walk on a smaller circle and do TOH
and TOF on the ground asking him to step across and step under. Do a
million WT trainsitions on the bigger circle.

Also get Hillary Claytons Activate Your Horses Core.

Abby

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by Catja Pafo » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 03:50:22

Quote:

> Lunging a horse who is stiff to the right, who wants to lean on the right
> shoulder and cut in (not dangerously), and then speeds up to stay upright.
> For my safety and his, what would you folks do to keep him out on the
> circle?

I always found that it helped with Crumble if he was in that mood to do
a few minutes of in hand work first - walk him large on a short(ish)
rein, walk and halt, then gradually lengthen the lunge line and
eventually ask for a circle. Trying to get him to go out from the start
was a battle of wills at times - start by putting the horse on the right
track and moving away from him was much, much easier.

One thing I would not do is spiralling in and out of the circle, as I
always feel that a horse must have basic balance for that to work,
otherwise the leaning tends to get worse.

Frequent changes of rein are helpful, but then, they always are.

Catja

--

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by Emily Brook » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 07:57:33



Quote:
> Lunging a horse who is stiff to the right, who wants to lean on the right
> shoulder and cut in (not dangerously), and then speeds up to stay upright.
> For my safety and his, what would you folks do to keep him out on the
> circle?

Em, get the book Straightening the Crooked Horse. Those people are
really insightful and I saw changes when I started doing the
exercises. Its very interesting. Hes clearly not able to balance to
the right on the circle.

In the meantime, keep it at the walk on a smaller circle and do TOH
and TOF on the ground asking him to step across and step under. Do a
million WT trainsitions on the bigger circle.

Also get Hillary Claytons Activate Your Horses Core.

Abby
--------
I'll look into the books. I'm already doing the TOH/TOF in-hand, making sure
he steps across correctly. Once he loosens up a bit, he's fine on a circle
but better under saddle where I have more influence.

Emily

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by Emily Brook » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 08:14:48



Quote:

> I agree with the slow, slow, slow approach.  It sounds like he's flinging
> himself around.  So he learns to fling himself around.  If he can't get
> balanced within in the movement them he has to start with it and stop if
> he loses it.

> So what was your trainer's advice?  Did it work?

> sharon

He doesn't fling himself around at all - I'm asking for walk, slow, cadenced
trot and transitions. The round pen (a big round pen) is on a slight slope -
he speeds up downhill and slows down uphill until he warms up. The footing
there is not consistent. He speeds up where the footing is deeper and slows
down where it's thinner until he loosens up - regardless of direction - but
you can see that he doesn't bend to the right well. My goal here is for him
to stay out on the circle (leaning on the right shoulder drags him in on the
circle) so that the circle stays large enough to not cause me the vapors
while he warms up a bit.

My instructor recommends a single side rein on the outside. My personal side
reins are too short for this moose; the barn's are *barely* long enough.
Although I see this work for my instructor, the physics seem all weird and I
want another way that makes more sense to me. The way I understand this (if
I do) is that the outside rein helps to hold him out on the circle. Fine.
But Hoover is already not bent around the circle to the right, why would I
want to encourage that shape?

I could, somehow, find time to ride more often and just keep it all together
from the saddle. But just think how my education would be lacking without
self-induced problems to work on!

Emily

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by Ocean of Nuanc » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 08:25:37

Quote:



>> I agree with the slow, slow, slow approach.  It sounds like he's flinging
>> himself around.  So he learns to fling himself around.  If he can't get
>> balanced within in the movement them he has to start with it and stop if
>> he loses it.

>> So what was your trainer's advice?  Did it work?

>> sharon

> He doesn't fling himself around at all - I'm asking for walk, slow, cadenced
> trot and transitions. The round pen (a big round pen) is on a slight slope -
> he speeds up downhill and slows down uphill until he warms up. The footing
> there is not consistent. He speeds up where the footing is deeper and slows
> down where it's thinner until he loosens up - regardless of direction - but
> you can see that he doesn't bend to the right well. My goal here is for him
> to stay out on the circle (leaning on the right shoulder drags him in on the
> circle) so that the circle stays large enough to not cause me the vapors
> while he warms up a bit.

> My instructor recommends a single side rein on the outside. My personal side
> reins are too short for this moose; the barn's are *barely* long enough.
> Although I see this work for my instructor, the physics seem all weird and I
> want another way that makes more sense to me. The way I understand this (if
> I do) is that the outside rein helps to hold him out on the circle. Fine.
> But Hoover is already not bent around the circle to the right, why would I
> want to encourage that shape?

This reminds me of a similar problem someone wrte about except it was
under saddle.  I don't remember the specifics but your mention of just
an outside rein sounds familiar.  This is not the thhread I'm thinking
about but might have some good ideas...

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=146518&sid=9a2...

Quote:
> I could, somehow, find time to ride more often and just keep it all together
> from the saddle. But just think how my education would be lacking without
> self-induced problems to work on!

Things like this I think are extremely fertile grounds for larger
understanding.  Pete's rehab has been so for me at least.

It's a long road that gets longer each day.

sharon

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by cind » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 09:10:31


Quote:
> My instructor recommends a single side rein on the outside. My personal side

I wouldn't put a side rein on the outside - that will encourage him to
bow his body away from the inside even more... It's inside aids that
keep the inside shoulder up and the barrel out.  I'd do small circles
in hand asking for correct bend, and teach him from there to establish
the correct bend and "leg yield" away from you, making a bigger
circle, when asked (from your other post where you mention he now will
just speed up when you step toward him.)

I think you can see some video online of this sort of work - the
lippizaner people do it, I think.  You might also like to watch Dennis
Reis on RFD-TV - your guy might simply need to get more desensitized
to various things like ropes and whips and your body asking for bend.
If his current answer is to get faster, that could be a
desensitization issue.  Once he's clear that you are not asking for
speed, you can get more clarification and finesse.

I also would have him get some body work - I've been using a "equine
physiologist" who does body work with the Pro Adjuster, and she has
FIXED the horses that traditional chiropractors could make a bit
better... I don't know that the people who do this work are all that
common.  But it is really important to address physical impediments to
proper bend in both directions before asking for much via training -
if they really can't do it without pain, it's not fair to them to
insist.  I think Abby's SENSE that she mentions would be great too and
maybe easier to find a practitioner.

Quote:
> reins are too short for this moose; the barn's are *barely* long enough.
> Although I see this work for my instructor, the physics seem all weird and I
> want another way that makes more sense to me. The way I understand this (if
> I do) is that the outside rein helps to hold him out on the circle. Fine.
> But Hoover is already not bent around the circle to the right, why would I
> want to encourage that shape?

You have good instincts... When riding, if your horse cuts corners and
falls in, you don't pull on the outside rein... Same thing here.

Quote:
> I could, somehow, find time to ride more often and just keep it all together
> from the saddle. But just think how my education would be lacking without
> self-induced problems to work on!

LOL, very true!
cindi
 
 
 

Training Question

Post by Emily Brook » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 09:40:05


I also would have him get some body work - I've been using a "equine
physiologist" who does body work with the Pro Adjuster, and she has
FIXED the horses that traditional chiropractors could make a bit
better... I don't know that the people who do this work are all that
common.  But it is really important to address physical impediments to
proper bend in both directions before asking for much via training -
if they really can't do it without pain, it's not fair to them to
insist.  I think Abby's SENSE that she mentions would be great too and
maybe easier to find a practitioner.

cindi
-------
Today's lesson, rather than riding in the pouring rain and slop, was equine
massage for the clueless. Using Spot for the demo, since he will stand like
a statue for most anything. Finding some of the acupressure points, finding
places of tight muscles or unusual reactivity to palpation and then pressing
until the knot releases. Feeling what 'tight' and 'good' feel like.

Along with conformation and physiology and what effect they have on how the
horse uses himself.

And gossip :-)

Emily

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by westcoastja.. » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:22:19

Hi, I'm new here, but if I may suggest something?
I would stretch him out before lunging, paying special attention to
flexing his neck to to stiff side.  and then lunge him in triangle
reins, not side reins,  I have seen too many horses learn to lean on
side reins, especially when you are dealing with one that has a
noticeably stiff side.  most of the dressage trainers I worked with in
so cal used triangle reins, made out of hay string.

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by Joyce Reynolds-War » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 12:52:31

On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 08:16:54 -0500, "Emily Brooks"

snip

Quote:
>I discussed the issue with my trainer. A gold star for the first to match
>his answer :-) but I bet there's more than one way to accomplish this goal.
>I'm looking for other ideas.

How many IDed side reins?

For a solutions--how about a lot of transitions.  Up, down, whoa,
back.  I did that with Mocha.

These days, I think I'd ground drive instead--gives more support and
enforcement with a lot more give.

jrw

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by Eileen Morga » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 13:55:15

With Rain, falling in was correct with a sharp set half halt and a
change of direction. Sometimes we only got a few steps each way! In the
end, she learned that when she stayed out in her balance, she was let to
continue in a more relaxed and happy manner and when she fell in,
changed her speed, fell on her forehand, or otherwise goofed around, she
had to half halt, halt, change direction. Eventually just a slight
indication of half halt would cause her to rebalance herself.

Once she was in full balance on her own, we added first a siderein on
the inside each way, then the outside each way, them both sides--this
taught her to be responsible for her balance no matter what else was
going on.

FWIW, her work was all done in a field on a slope.

Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.themaresnest.com

 
 
 

Training Question

Post by MA Sand » Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:53:58


Quote:
> Lunging a horse who is stiff to the right, who wants to lean on the right
> shoulder and cut in (not dangerously), and then speeds up to stay upright.
> For my safety and his, what would you folks do to keep him out on the
> circle?

> He was very fresh so I was not holding a lunge whip for most of this. He is
> not allowed to play on the line and I was having to hold him shorter than
> I'd prefer for lunging in order to maintain control. Once some of the excess
> wore off, I used the whip pointed at his shoulder to hold him out and gave
> him a larger circle to work in.

> More experience with lunge-is-work wouldn't hurt, of course, but I really
> don't lunge much. No way was I getting on this one without though!

> I discussed the issue with my trainer. A gold star for the first to match
> his answer :-) but I bet there's more than one way to accomplish this goal.
> I'm looking for other ideas.

> Emily - and Hoover (Who? Me? Fresh?)

Sigh!  I wish bulging in was the issue with HRH Reason.  He apparently
went to the school of "get out on the end of the lunge line and tear
around like an idiot until we get the steam out of our system and then
trot until we feel like stopping!"  Once the zoomies have stopped, he
appears to understand the words walk and trot, but Whoa is apparently
a foreign language!  I can get him to eventually stop, but then he
gets all antsy because I believe he was probably never allowed to stop
moving while lunging!  Not really fond of a horse with NO whoa in his
vocabulary (now that I think of it, I don't even know if he responds
to it under saddle; sounds like today's experiment, eh? ;-))  So,
looks like we are adding 10-15 minutes of lunging to our warmup
regimen for a while.

I would really like to be able to make lunging more of a training than
getting the zoomies out of his system session.  I think I have
developed a bit of sciatica (sp?) from a combination of a pulled
muscle in my back (from an incident with Lance, the Clyde/Morgan cross
school horse, at a horse show last summer,) which has now been
aggravated by transporting a euthanized 150lb Great Dane to its
owner's car (this after the guy told our doctor he would help us get
her out there!  His help was opening the car doors apparently!)
Weight limit?  We don't got no stinking weight limit at my hospital!!!
Sandy
(remind me again WHY I took on a retraining project again?  I remember
those famous words that I would only get a baby/truly green horse for
my next one so I wasn't fixing OTHER peoples' screwups?  HA, HA,
HA!!!  But it will be ok, since HRH is actually turning into a pretty
nice horse on somedays.  Let's see how his back does with this
increase in workload again!)