Barn Sour

Barn Sour

Post by Petr » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00


I am wondering if there is also a simple obedience problem.

If a horse is well trained and obedient - and has learned to trust his / her
rider at all times this should not happen ( at least this is the theory )
Also - if the horse truly accepted the rider as being a higher member of the
hierarchy then it would follow directions given ?
Now if the above was correct ( and I don't quite know whether in the real
world it is ) then basic schooling and working with the horse should help
the situation.

I don't know as I have never had a horse that was barn sour, or had to deal
with one. I wrote the above more as a topic to explore rather than as actual
advice. If the horse is obedient it won't do this kind of thing, basically.
Yes ? No ? Maybe ?

Petra

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Jorene Dow » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

>>[...] The better you can figure out *why*
>>that horse is fussing, the better you can figure out how to handle
>>the situation.
>This paragraph is so important that I thought it deserved to be highlighted,
>especially after all your excellent help in working out the Tedster's
>anxiety-about-work problems. ;-)

>Remember "boing"?  Well, I've gotten to the bottom of that one, too.  We
>started "jumping" -- leading over little cavaletti, and he was back to square
>one, locked up, eyes tight, he wanted no part of it.  Took about three sessions
>to get him to the point where he would lead quietly over a ground pole. ;-)

>And I finally put the poles together with the Horse Eating Blocks and "boing"
>-- and his injured right hind (hoof is deformed from an old coronet band
>injury).  Farrier had just casually commented that he "probably got hung up in
>some wire."

>Yep, I think he did.  So he's of course very suspicious of anything that might
>"catch" his foot, especially the back ones.  So "boing" hasn't gone away, but I
>finally know where I'm going with that one.  ;-)

Your patience and persistence will be character building, right? ;-/

Glad to hear you've been able to sort out some of those Tedster
mysteries! But don't feel like you're seriously behind the 8-ball
with the walk-overs. There are plenty of horses who see those poles
and act like you're asking them to walk into a horse-eating trap. If
the horse won't adjust instinctively (many won't)  you can help by
setting up the approach with the correct length of stride. Similar
in concept to a jump approach. Once Ted understands that he *can*
step and miss, he'll reduce the "boing."

But do you have a small pen where you could put a few poles down?
Preferably a bit longer / bigger than a 12x24 so he'd have room to
lie down, and also to move faster than a walk if he wanted. Put feed
at one end, water at the other, and poles on the ground across the
middle.  Set it up so he *must* step over a pole if he wants both
food and drink. Once he's decided he isn't gonna die <g> you could
add a parallel run of poles for him to step over. Maybe even vary
the distance between the parallel poles. Wouldn't be long and he'd
be crossing like a seasoned veteran. :)

BTW - is this a good time to mention that the first time Blu was
introduced to the lope-over - as a long 2 yo - it was a wagon wheel
design? And on loose rein she set *herself* up and loped around
clean???  I was brought back down from my happy cloud when Magic was
a perfectly normal horse, even stumbling in the walk-overs. <sigh>

Side note -  I raised Blu from a foal, and intentionally had
obstacles out in pasture that she used to race over as a youngster
playing. Magic was raised in a level back yard pen, and her only
outside experience before I bought her last summer was a few local
arenas shown halter as a weanling / yearling. As a very green broke
4 yo it was obvious she'd never even walked on a hill, much less
over uneven terrain. I call Magic my flatland hot house flower <g>,
and she needs her hand held (kinda) every single step in her
methodical training. Blu just takes everything in stride ... so to
speak <g> ... and if Magic's training was as "fast track" as Blu's,
I suspect she'd give Ted lessons on "boing!" :)))

Oh - and beware when you graduate to backing Ted between poles ...
that can be yet another horse- eating trap!  ;-/

Hey, Yippee! I'm back under 900 for backlog posts!!!

(p&m)

- - -
Jorene
just moseyin' down the California trails
from the CEOates Ranch ... :)
http://www.CEOates.com

Meet other rec.eq posters on:
http://www.psnw.com/~jcdowns/RecEq/RecEq.html

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Jane H. Kilbe » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> I am wondering if there is also a simple obedience problem.

> If a horse is well trained and obedient - and has learned to trust his / her
> rider at all times this should not happen ( at least this is the theory )
> Also - if the horse truly accepted the rider as being a higher member of the
> hierarchy then it would follow directions given ?

You are correct. A horse that listens to the handler/rider will not ignore
the rider's cues.

Quote:
> Now if the above was correct ( and I don't quite know whether in the real
> world it is ) then basic schooling and working with the horse should help
> the situation.

Yes. The basic correction would come at the time of the incident, then the
rider can provide further schooling if needed. However, sometimes it is
only necessary to correct when it occurs and isn't a relationship problem.
One can easily tell if the horse is consistant with the correction.

Quote:
> I don't know as I have never had a horse that was barn sour, or had to deal
> with one. I wrote the above more as a topic to explore rather than as actual
> advice. If the horse is obedient it won't do this kind of thing, basically.
> Yes ? No ? Maybe ?

I have retrained many barn sour aka herd bound horses and in all cases the
owner did not establish the basic relationship between the horse and
themself. The horse learned it was okay not to pay attention to the
owner/rider when it wanted to. IOW, the horses were spoiled.

down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Jane H. Kilbe » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:


> >It seems that the only way to be rid of the undesirable barn-sour
> >behavior is by making it unpleasant when the horse does get back to the
> >barn.  

> This doesn't make sense to me, especially as "making it unpleasant' to most
> people means "work 'em."   Well, all our school horses are worked primarily
> in/around the barn, but that hasn't made any of 'em particularly eager to
leave
> the barn area.

<snip>

Quote:
> > If you were
> >capable of correcting this jigging or bolting *on the spot*, you would
> >have already done so and it would not have happened to begin with.
> And yes, circling, side-passing, halt and rein back, or turning and going the
> other way is "dealing with the problem on the spot."  It's insisting that the
> horse listen to you, which the jigger, bolter, bouncer most definitely is not
> doing at the moment.  And it's Not Listening which is the root of the problem
> wth the barn sour horse (or just about any other horsie misbehavior).

This definitely needs repeating. If a horse doesn't listen, then there is a
problem between the rider and the horse's relationship.

Quote:
> I guess you can approach any behavior problem as an isolated instance, or you
> can see it as a sign that there's a hole somewhere in the training.

Some instances are isolated and once cued by the rider, the horse will
listen. If the horse doesn't and continues its own path, then as Deb says,
"there's a hole somewhere in the training." That hole can be 1) the horse
doesn't consider the rider as alpha, 2) the rider is not consistant with
cues, 3) the rider/trainer rushed the horse and skipped lessons learned.

down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Eileen G. Morg » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00



<snip Petra wondering if it was an obediance problem>

Quote:
>I don't know as I have never had a horse that was barn sour, or had to deal
>with one. I wrote the above more as a topic to explore rather than as actual
>advice. If the horse is obedient it won't do this kind of thing, basically.
>Yes ? No ? Maybe ?

I can tell you my story. I was 12 when I got my first horse, who was
22 at the time (supposed to be younger . . . oh well, she evented,
competitive trail rode, and hunter paced through her late 20s, jumped
into low 30s, and trail rode and baby sat 'til her death at 38).***
had been a strong willed, abused horse. She stood in the stall with
her ***to the door and her ears half back, she had NO pasture
friends and was Boss Hoss at all times, and she was a bolter and barn
sour. Ahh, to be 12 again . . . I loved her to death, of course.

I "cured" her of bolting by canter so much that she got bored with it
and stoped running away. Canter isn't that exciting with some stupid
kid who goes, OK, lets go, then. And keep going, after you are sick of
it. The bolting disappeared never to return about 8 months after I
bought her.

The barn sour thing . . . well, I just would stop and get off and
stand there, waiting for her to get bored and start eating. Once she
was grazing, I'd get back on and let her keep grazing. Then we'd sort
of shift around to point towards home. Then we'd start walking and
picking/snatching grass. As soon as she started to rev, I'd start all
over again. By the end of our first year, she would walk or trot or
canter when faced towards home quietly (I used to not be able to trot
or canter AT ALL any time our path curved to face home--the whole last
1/2 of a ride had to be at walk).  

To her dying day I let her snatch grass on the fly (she wasn't to stop
and eat, once we fixed jigging and bolting all the way home). I know,
I know, shouldn't let horses eat while riding, etc. I've never let any
of the other beasts I've owned or leased or trained for people do this
. . . but, hey, it wasn't a bad solution for an 8th grader/freshman in
high school!

The longer I had her, the happier, more relaxed, and more obediant she
became. I think all that barn sour stuff is directly tied to general
obedience and managment practices. Even an obediant horse, if alwatys
blasted home, will start to anticipate take off!

eileen morgan
The Mare's Nest

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by JJA » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> >Right.  I think of it sort of like when my daughter still lived at home and
> >after dinner I would give her "the choice of either washing or drying" the
> >dishes.

> I agree with those completely, but I then think it's not quite cricket to
> pass the result off as the horse's desire and idea and as proof that he's a
> partner.

I hope that no one has said that precisely, BUT I will say that the process of
offering a horse choices rather than imperatives does produce more desire and
more partnership. If you want to train a dressage horse, you use dressage
training. He may not be one at the beginning, but somewhere along the line he
will become so, and you never lose sight of the end goal. It's the same thing -
you may start with very simple choices, but your goal is to develop the horses
desire to work with you willingly by always giving him an option. Over time, as
trust developes, he will begin to learn that the choice you are suggesting is
always the best for him, and he will begin to choose the choice you are offering
OVER one that apparently seems easier to him. He will also learn to look to you
for guidance if he comes upon a problem by himself - he stops acting out of
instinct, and starts to look to you for leadership. You can see this in little
things -like a horse who, if he trod on his own rope with his head down, would
always apply brute force to the problem and fling his head in the air, suddenly
stays pinned to his own foot, and looks to you to say "Just take a step back and
it will all be fine". A simple example, but when many of these things change
without you attending to them, you realise you are making progress.

Quote:
> , I should pay less attention to what they say and more to what they do.

Once you see what they do, what they write makes much more sense.

Cheers

Jackie

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by JJA » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00

 I still don't

Quote:
> know what effect NH/PNH would have had, and I can't remember exactly
> what we did with her, but it involved lots of "walkies" and gaining
> her respect and confidence.  My mother was so elated when I came back
> from one of these "walkies" riding her bareback with her halter.
> I certainly don't hold anything against NH...anything which achieves
> its goal without being abusive or forceful can only be correct, but
> there are so many other methods which don't fall under "Natural
> Horsemanship" which also have the horses' approval.

Indeed, and I would describe what you did as a very "natural" approach -
it is natural to some people, and always natural to the horse! The easy
horse often gets treated like this as a matter of course by thinking
riders - the not-so-easy horse sometimes requires a little more thorough
application of the same principles to gain the same response. If Ray does
come near you, I'd still say don't miss him for the world - you will see
where this approach can lead to in it's ultimate refinement, and if you
are that way inclined you will love it. I'd probably go and see Parelli
himself if I got the chance, but I wouldn't give you tuppence for any PNH
instructors I have heard about - they come across a bit like Amway
salesmen to me!

Cheers

Jackie

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by CATHERINE ALEXANDRA PAFO » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Petra wrote in context with the barn sour horse:

Quote:
>I am wondering if there is also a simple obedience problem.

>If a horse is well trained and obedient - and has learned to trust his / her
>rider at all times this should not happen ( at least this is the theory )
>Also - if the horse truly accepted the rider as being a higher member of the
>hierarchy then it would follow directions given ?
>Now if the above was correct ( and I don't quite know whether in the real
>world it is ) then basic schooling and working with the horse should help
>the situation.

Agreed with two cautions - if the horse is very young and insecure (hasn't been
places), he might still be more afraid of the wide world than he trusts his
rider.
The other problem is posed by very herdbound animals, often those that are low
in the hierarchy - for them the rider can simply be 'not enough herd' to give
them the security they want.

Quote:
>I don't know as I have never had a horse that was barn sour, or had to deal
>with one. I wrote the above more as a topic to explore rather than as actual
>advice. If the horse is obedient it won't do this kind of thing, basically.

Maybe. While I agree with the theory, I've also met my friend's highly strung
Trakehner mare, working on medium level, and certainly not lacking trust and
obedience - but she was highly distressed every time she was asked to leave the
stable on her own. Any company (on foot, dog, bycicle) would do.

I don't know the solution to it - I think I'll accept that there are just some
horses that DON'T hack out alone safely.

Catja

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Snezewo » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>Your patience and persistence will be character building, right? ;-/

Long as I don't fall off.  ;-)  "Boing" has gotten smaller and quieter.  It's
no longer a wild leap, land inverted, think about bolting -- now it's a bounce
sideways and return to work.

Quote:
>Glad to hear you've been able to sort out some of those Tedster
>mysteries! But don't feel like you're seriously behind the 8-ball
>with the walk-overs. There are plenty of horses who see those poles
>and act like you're asking them to walk into a horse-eating trap.

Yeah, I've seen horses who objected strongly, but most settled once they'd
crossed it once or twice.  Teddie gets the same expression he had when first
working with the whip, during the first saddlings -- locked up and scared.

If

Quote:
>the horse won't adjust instinctively (many won't)  you can help by
>setting up the approach with the correct length of stride. Similar
>in concept to a jump approach. Once Ted understands that he *can*
>step and miss, he'll reduce the "boing."

That's part of what we're working on.  The other part is learning that he _can_
knock against things with his back legs without getting trapped.

Quote:
>But do you have a small pen where you could put a few poles down?

Yep.  Just waiting for the snow to melt out of the round pen. ;-)

Quote:
>Preferably a bit longer / bigger than a 12x24 so he'd have room to
>lie down, and also to move faster than a walk if he wanted. Put feed
>at one end, water at the other, and poles on the ground across the
>middle.  Set it up so he *must* step over a pole if he wants both
>food and drink. Once he's decided he isn't gonna die <g> you could
>add a parallel run of poles for him to step over. Maybe even vary
>the distance between the parallel poles. Wouldn't be long and he'd
>be crossing like a seasoned veteran. :)

This is excellent advice.  Ted's pasture is full of fallen logs and sticks
which he _gallops_ through a couple of times a day. ;-)  And he's fine with
stepovers and little jumps on trails.  I think its partly the same-old -- if
there's a human around, he expects Something Bad, something Even Worse than
just catching a foot, to happen.

Quote:
>Oh - and beware when you graduate to backing Ted between poles ...
>that can be yet another horse- eating trap!  ;-/

My goal for Ted is to train him to deliberately knock over those horse-eating
blocks.  ;-)

Deb Hendrickson
Duluth, Minnesota  -- Land of the Loons

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Laura Friedma » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> To her dying day I let her snatch grass on the fly (she wasn't to stop
> and eat, once we fixed jigging and bolting all the way home). I know,
> I know, shouldn't let horses eat while riding, etc. I've never let any
> of the other beasts I've owned or leased or trained for people do this
> . . . but, hey, it wasn't a bad solution for an 8th grader/freshman in
> high school!

Actually, most endurance riders I know encourage their horses to snatch
food on the trail.  This does keep them energized, but is a real pain
when your mount, who's wearing a side-pull of course, keeps diving for
the ground.

Laura & Squiggles (who is allowed to snatch grass, but hasn't quite yet
learned to always keep moving -- especially with the lush growth all
this rain is providing)

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Jane H. Kilbe » Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Petra wrote in context with the barn sour horse:

> >I am wondering if there is also a simple obedience problem.

> >If a horse is well trained and obedient - and has learned to trust his / her
> >rider at all times this should not happen ( at least this is the theory )
> >Also - if the horse truly accepted the rider as being a higher member of the
> >hierarchy then it would follow directions given ?
> >Now if the above was correct ( and I don't quite know whether in the real
> >world it is ) then basic schooling and working with the horse should help
> >the situation.

> Agreed with two cautions - if the horse is very young and insecure
(hasn't been
> places), he might still be more afraid of the wide world than he trusts his
> rider.

Then back to the re-enforcement of the relationship. Even a young horse can
learn to listen to the rider. One cannot "protect" a horse against every
monster out there, so this goes back to starting the youngster right. IOW,
grades were skipped and the youngster was pushed.

Quote:
> The other problem is posed by very herdbound animals, often those that
are low
> in the hierarchy - for them the rider can simply be 'not enough herd' to give
> them the security they want.

Again, if the rider isn't "enough herd" then that is the relationship
problem that was never established for the horse to know it needs to listen
to the rider.

Quote:
> Maybe. While I agree with the theory, I've also met my friend's highly strung
> Trakehner mare, working on medium level, and certainly not lacking trust and
> obedience - but she was highly distressed every time she was asked to
leave the
> stable on her own. Any company (on foot, dog, bycicle) would do.

If she's +that+ highly distresses, she skipped a lesson or two. Horses can
be "red alert" and still listen to the rider. This horse needs much more
work outside the barnyard on a daily basis.

Quote:
> I don't know the solution to it - I think I'll accept that there are just
some
> horses that DON'T hack out alone safely.

Only because they don't have enough wet blanket time.

down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Richard Botteri » Sat, 28 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>Interesting - that must be why intermittent reward is actually more productive
>than constant reward.  A good example is recreational  fishing - how long would
>one fish if:
>A) they NEVER caught a fish, or
>B) they caught a fish every time they threw in their line?

Er...ummm....until the beer is all gone?     ;-)

Richard and Sun Valley
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

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