Barn Sour

Barn Sour

Post by don l simpkin » Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:00:00


I have an 19yr old horse who I would say is barn sour.  If I am away
from the barn he will give me full attention.  When I get close to the
barn he like prances around as like to be trotting real slow.  He
refuses to stop and turns circles.  While standing still and within
distance of the barn he will bite his bit and pound his hoof on the
ground.  He will not walk to the barn he will only trot or canter.  If I
go away from the barn he will walk.  What can I do to get him to calmly
walk to the barn and not trot?

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by jadam.. » Sun, 15 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> I have an 19yr old horse who I would say is barn sour.  If I am away
> from the barn he will give me full attention.  When I get close to the
> barn he like prances around as like to be trotting real slow.  He
> refuses to stop and turns circles.  While standing still and within
> distance of the barn he will bite his bit and pound his hoof on the
> ground.  He will not walk to the barn he will only trot or canter.  If I
> go away from the barn he will walk.  What can I do to get him to calmly
> walk to the barn and not trot?

I had a problem about the same with a horse. When you start back to the
barn and he starts acting up, turn him around and go the other way.
After awhile he will get tired and do it your way.

This may take a few times but I think it will help with your prollem.

Cowboy

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Snezewo » Sun, 15 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>I have an 19yr old horse who I would say is barn sour.  If I am away
>from the barn he will give me full attention.  When I get close to the
>barn he like prances around as like to be trotting real slow.  He
>refuses to stop and turns circles.  

Super.  Keep him on the circle until he walks.  When he walks, let him head for
the barn, but be prepared to retake the circle the moment he offers to speed
up.  Switch sides, 'cause you're going to be doing lots of circles for a while.
 ;-)

Initially, you might spend the whole ride time just taking the horse a short
way from the barn and rotating your way back to it.  He'll  probably get worse
before he gets better, but this will work.  Once the horse figures out that the
only way to get back to the barn is to walk, he'll walk. ;-)

Once you've got walking around the barn down, you can work on standing near the
barn.  Easiest way is to ride him back _near_ the barn, just outside his
"stomp" zone, halt him, let him stand a while, then dismount and lead him into
the barn.  Gradually work this halt in closer until you can walk him up to your
normal dismounting area and have him stand until you decide to get off.  Horses
will stand still a long time if they think you're going to get off.  ;-)

When he can walk and whoa near the barn, I'd do some schooling near the barn
every time I rode for a while, then go for a trail ride.  Doesn't have to be a
long, intense session, just some simple turns, changes of pace, and
transitions.

Deb Hendrickson
Duluth, Minnesota  -- Land of the Loons


 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Jumppo » Sun, 15 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Send him to a professional trainer before it gets worse and you get hurt!!!
Also you need to figur out why he does this, is he spoiled?  You must find out
the reason or when he gets back it will happen again.

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Jane H. Kilbe » Sun, 15 Feb 1998 04:00:00


re: barn sour horse

Quote:
> Send him to a professional trainer before it gets worse and you get hurt!!!

Nah...he don't need a professional trainer, he just needs a bit of
re-focusing on the rider instead of the herd back at the barnyard.

Quote:
> Also you need to figur out why he does this, is he spoiled?

Nah, he ain't spoiled, just an age old need to be with his herd for social
reasons. Not very hard to figure out.

Quote:
> You must find out
> the reason or when he gets back it will happen again.

The reason is known, what the poster needs is training tools/methods and
the posts by Deb H and Cowboy covered it quite well.

down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by ASimpCat » Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

>>I have an 19yr old horse who I would say is barn sour.  If I am away
>>from the barn he will give me full attention.  When I get close to the
>>barn he like prances around as like to be trotting real slow.  He
>>refuses to stop and turns circles.  

>Super.  Keep him on the circle until he walks.  When he walks, let him head
>for
>the barn, but be prepared to retake the circle the moment he offers to speed
>up.  Switch sides, 'cause you're going to be doing lots of circles for a
>while.
> ;-)
><snip>

There has been a lot of discussion and controversy on this ng about "natural
horsemanship" and whether or not it differs from "conventional" training.  I
don't claim to be an expert in NH, having been introduced to it only 1 1/2 yrs
ago, but this is as good a time as any to explain the NH approach to the
problem of barn sourness as I understand it.  Specifically this is what I think
Harry Whitney would advise, although I'm only guessing since I've heard advice
about going away from the barn but not getting back to it:

Let the horse go back to the barn.  This is what he wants to do because he
thinks the barn is a better place to be than away from the barn.  But when you
get there, instead of getting off and putting him away, which is the reward he
anticipates, put him to work.  Assuming there is some room just outside the
barn to work him (like in the parking lot), make him work:  do small circles,
frequent transitions, stops, turns, etc., anything you can think of that keeps
him busy and working.  You can even nag him a bit continually like bumping him
with your legs of tapping him lightly with a whip.  The idea is to make him
start to think that maybe the barn isn't such a good place to be as he thought
it was.

When you feel he is starting to think he'd like to stop working, point him away
from the barn, drop the reins, quit with your legs or whip, and  let him go.
He will go willingly away from the barn for a certain distance, then he will
stop and try to turn back.  Let him.  When he gets back to the barn, put him to
work again.  This time he'll be ready to leave sooner.  When you feel like he'd
like to stop working, invite him to leave again.  This time he'll go farther
before he stops and turns back.

You might not need to go all the way back to the barn this time.  As long as
he's walking calmly back to the barn, leave him be.  But as soon as he starts
to prance, put him to work.  When he lets you know he'd like to stop, at this
point I suppose you could point him away from the barn again, if you wanted to
leave, in which case he'd likely go further than the last time before trying to
turn back.  Or, you could let him walk back to the barn as long as he walked
calmly.  If he started to prance again, put him back to work (same as Deb's
advice at this point.)

Keep on in this manner until he walks calmly all the way back to the barn.  But
when you do get there, don't get off immediately.  Instead, make him work just
a bit more to reinforce the idea in his mind that it's more pleasant to be away
from the barn than at the barn.  

Next time you go on a ride, put him to work right outside the barn before
trying to go anywhere.  Don't "make" him leave.  Make him _want_ to leave.
Give him choices, then set it up so that the horse voluntarily chooses what you
want because he learns it's the easiest choice.  Then he will happily go away
from the barn without a hassle and return to the barn calmly.  Or so the NHers
say.

This is an example of "making the right thing easy and the wrong thing
difficult but not impossible," and allowing the horse to make his own choices.
The idea is to set it up so that your idea becomes his idea.

Alice Simpson

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Jane H. Kilbe » Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:



> >>I have an 19yr old horse who I would say is barn sour.  If I am away
> >>from the barn he will give me full attention.  When I get close to the
> >>barn he like prances around as like to be trotting real slow.  He
> >>refuses to stop and turns circles.  

> >Super.  Keep him on the circle until he walks.  When he walks, let him head
> >for
> >the barn, but be prepared to retake the circle the moment he offers to speed
> >up.  Switch sides, 'cause you're going to be doing lots of circles for a
> >while.
> > ;-)
> ><snip>
> Specifically this is what I think
> Harry Whitney would advise, although I'm only guessing since I've heard advice
> about going away from the barn but not getting back to it:

Since you are only guessing, why post something that is probably incorrect?
Post what you think may help the rider, not what someone else may or may
not say.

Quote:
> Let the horse go back to the barn.  This is what he wants to do because he
> thinks the barn is a better place to be than away from the barn.

This action, rewards the horse for running back to the barn and may
possibly cause more problems for a rider not as experienced in riding an
out-of-control horse. Are you sure this is what you want to recommend?

Quote:
> But when you
> get there, instead of getting off and putting him away, which is the reward he
> anticipates, put him to work.

So, all the horse associates is work in front of the barn; not the action
of running to the barn. This is an indirect method. Horses are direct, not
indirect.

Quote:
> Assuming there is some room

And what if there isn't room?

Quote:
> Don't "make" him leave.  Make him _want_ to leave.

Then he'll run away from the barn and not want to be at the barn. Interesting!!

Horses are direct and simple and honest in their behavior. Wouldn't it be
better to tackle the situation where it occurs and not set up a new one?

If the horse acts up a mile from the barn, wouldn't it be better to work
out the unacceptable behavior a mile from the barn rather than somewhere
else (at the barn)?

If the horse acts up 20 feet from the barn, wouldn't it be better to work
out the unacceptable behavior 20 feet from the barn rather than somewhere
else? (at the barn)?

down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Cmdr » Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:00:00

I always thought the term "barn sour" meant "I don't want to go back there...I
don't like it"

hmmmm....your post has taught me something new...THANKS!!!

Quote:



> re: barn sour horse

> > Send him to a professional trainer before it gets worse and you get hurt!!!

> Nah...he don't need a professional trainer, he just needs a bit of
> re-focusing on the rider instead of the herd back at the barnyard.

> > Also you need to figur out why he does this, is he spoiled?

> Nah, he ain't spoiled, just an age old need to be with his herd for social
> reasons. Not very hard to figure out.

> > You must find out
> > the reason or when he gets back it will happen again.

> The reason is known, what the poster needs is training tools/methods and
> the posts by Deb H and Cowboy covered it quite well.

> down the tejas trails....
> jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Bill Walk » Wed, 18 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Quote:


> > I have an 19yr old horse who I would say is barn sour.

[...classic symptoms deleted...]

Quote:

> I had a problem about the same with a horse. When you start back to the
> barn and he starts acting up, turn him around and go the other way.
> After awhile he will get tired and do it your way.

> This may take a few times but I think it will help with your prollem.

But be aware that every horse is an individual.  I tried this technique
with my barn sour horse, and all it did was make him mad.  He'd still turn
around every time I asked, but he was snorting and neighing and generally
letting me know that he wasn't pleased about it.

What seems to have worked with my horse is the ever-controversial treat
training.  I took some carrots with me on trail.  When, after correcting
him via turning and/or backing, I got two calm steps toward the barn, I
gave him a piece of carrot.   When I got another five calm steps, I gave
him another.  10 calm steps, another piece.  And so on.  I only had to
correct him one more time on the entire return trip, and he's been very
good on trail since then.

Another thing that can help is to make sure that going back to the barn
isn't immediately pleasurable.  Don't go back to the barn, put your horse
in the crossties, and give him a carrot.  Instead, go work in the
arena/corral for a while.  Or let him stand in the crossties for a while.
Or turn around and go back out.

----------------------------------------------
Bill Walker, QUALCOMM, Inc., San Diego, CA USA

Support the anti-spam amendment.  Join at <http://www.cauce.org/>

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by ASimpCat » Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:



>> >>I have an 19yr old horse who I would say is barn sour.  If I am away
>> >>from the barn he will give me full attention.  When I get close to the
>> >>barn he like prances around as like to be trotting real slow.  He
>> >>refuses to stop and turns circles.  

>> >Super.  Keep him on the circle until he walks.  When he walks, let him
>head
>> >for
>> >the barn, but be prepared to retake the circle the moment he offers to
>speed
>> >up.  Switch sides, 'cause you're going to be doing lots of circles for a
>> >while.
>> > ;-)
>> ><snip>

>> Specifically this is what I think
>> Harry Whitney would advise, although I'm only guessing since I've heard
>advice
>> about going away from the barn but not getting back to it:

>Since you are only guessing, why post something that is probably incorrect?
>Post what you think may help the rider, not what someone else may or may
>not say.

What makes you say it is probably incorrect?  Because you don't agree with it?
I did post what I think may help the rider.  To be absolutely fair, however, I
did not lay claim to advice that comes from someone else, which is more than I
can say for many who freely pass on their opinions without ever stating their
source.  You should be congratulating me for my objectivity, not ragging on me.

And what is wrong with posting what someone else may or may not say if you
think you know that person well enough to guess correctly?  What if I had been
less honest and had left out the "I am only guessing," and said "This is what
Harry says:"  Would that have been OK with you?  Or what if I had merely said
"Try this:" as though it were my idea?  Would my dishonesty have pleased you?

And BTW, since when is it not permissible to post one's opinion?  What the heck
are newsgroups all about if not a forum for people to air their opinions?

Sometimes I think you just have it in for me, but then I notice you find fault
with almost anything anyone else says, also.  

I have indicated to you that I respect your opinion because of your experience,
but I do not admire narrowmindness or pettiness.

No one can know it all, but you for one would have us all believe that you do.
I'm at least humble enough to admit I have more questions than answers.

Quote:
>> Let the horse go back to the barn.  This is what he wants to do because he
>> thinks the barn is a better place to be than away from the barn.

>This action, rewards the horse for running back to the barn and may
>possibly cause more problems for a rider not as experienced in riding an
>out-of-control horse. Are you sure this is what you want to recommend?

Yes.  The horse does is not rewarded for going back to the barn, because he is
put back to work when he gets there.  Pretty soon he realizes there's no payoff
in rushing back to the barn.

Also, the person with the problem did not say the horse was "running" back to
the barn.  She said:  "When I get close to the barn he like prances around as
like to be trotting real slow.  He refuses to stop and turns circles."   I
interpreted this to mean he refuses to stop prancing, not that he bolted for
the barn.  So I say let him prance back to the barn.

Quote:
>> But when you
>> get there, instead of getting off and putting him away, which is the reward
>he
>> anticipates, put him to work.

>So, all the horse associates is work in front of the barn; not the action
>of running to the barn. This is an indirect method. Horses are direct, not
>indirect.

Well, if you could work the horse in his stall that would be even better.  But
that's a little inpractical so you do the next best thing.  I have tried this
method, in reverse, for a horse that would prefer not to go away from the barn,
and it works like a charm.  Do I need to?  Of course not.  I could take the
"direct" way:  I have no trouble moving away from the barn by using my
traditional aids:  legs, reinforced with whip or spur if needed.  No problem,
except that there is a big difference in the attitude between a horse that
leaves because you make it and one that leaves because it wants to.  When the
horse leaves because he wants to he walks straight off briskly, ears forward,
no hesitation, no need to urge him on or prevent him from turning back.  When
he leaves because I make him, he would slow down or stop, or turn around, if I
released the aids.

This may be an "indirect" method to you, but it works on the horse's mind to
make your idea his idea.  Any horse will be a much happier camper if it is
doing what it wants to do, rather than what you make it do because you have the
ability to do so (which I do.)

Quote:
>And what if there isn't room?

There's always enough room to do something, even if it's just forward and back,
or 6 meter circles, unless you were stupid enough to build your barn on the top
of a butte.

Quote:
>Then he'll run away from the barn and not want to be at the barn.
>Interesting!!

Don't be ridiculous.  We're only trying to modify behavior, not completely
reverse it.

Quote:
>Horses are direct and simple and honest in their behavior. Wouldn't it be
>better to tackle the situation where it occurs and not set up a new one?

This is attacking the situation where it occurs, which is at the barn.  The
horse's brain is in the barn.  Until you get the brain to be where you are,
you will not have a soft, responsive horse.

Quote:
>If the horse acts up a mile from the barn, wouldn't it be better to work
>out the unacceptable behavior a mile from the barn rather than somewhere
>else (at the barn)?

No.  He is acting up a mile from the barn because his brain is in the barn.  If
you start "working" it out a mile away, you might have to renew your efforts
with each 50 ft. closer you got.  All you would be doing, perhaps, is
reinforcing in the horse's mind that the barn is a hell of lot better place to
be than away from the barn, where he has to keep working even when he's tired
and hot.

Alice Simpson

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Jane H. Kilbe » Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:00:00


Quote:


> >Horses are direct and simple and honest in their behavior. Wouldn't it be
> >better to tackle the situation where it occurs and not set up a new one?
> This is attacking the situation where it occurs, which is at the barn.  The
> horse's brain is in the barn.  Until you get the brain to be where you are,
> you will not have a soft, responsive horse.
> >If the horse acts up a mile from the barn, wouldn't it be better to work
> >out the unacceptable behavior a mile from the barn rather than somewhere
> >else (at the barn)?
> No.  He is acting up a mile from the barn because his brain is in the
barn.  If
> you start "working" it out a mile away, you might have to renew your efforts
> with each 50 ft. closer you got.  All you would be doing, perhaps, is
> reinforcing in the horse's mind that the barn is a hell of lot better place to
> be than away from the barn, where he has to keep working even when he's tired
> and hot.

So, according to your method of re-training unacceptable behavior of a
horse who acts up on the ride back to the barn, you would not correct that
behavior when it occurs. Rather because it is connected with the horse's
herd desire (to get back to the barn), you would wait until you are back at
the barn to correct the horse.

All ideologies of training agree that any unacceptable behavior must be
corrected at the time and place it occurs. This is because the horse thinks
here and now. The horse reacts to certain stimuli that triggers the
unacceptable behavior. Change the behavior and you change the way the horse
reacts to the stimuli.

down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Betty Woo » Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:00:00



Quote:



> > >Horses are direct and simple and honest in their behavior. Wouldn't it be
> > >better to tackle the situation where it occurs and not set up a new one?

> > This is attacking the situation where it occurs, which is at the barn.  The
> > horse's brain is in the barn.  Until you get the brain to be where you are,
> > you will not have a soft, responsive horse.

> > >If the horse acts up a mile from the barn, wouldn't it be better to work
> > >out the unacceptable behavior a mile from the barn rather than somewhere
> > >else (at the barn)?

> > No.  He is acting up a mile from the barn because his brain is in the
> barn.  If
> > you start "working" it out a mile away, you might have to renew your efforts
> > with each 50 ft. closer you got.  All you would be doing, perhaps, is
> > reinforcing in the horse's mind that the barn is a hell of lot better
place to
> > be than away from the barn, where he has to keep working even when
he's tired
> > and hot.

> So, according to your method of re-training unacceptable behavior of a
> horse who acts up on the ride back to the barn, you would not correct that
> behavior when it occurs. Rather because it is connected with the horse's
> herd desire (to get back to the barn), you would wait until you are back at
> the barn to correct the horse.

The circling at the site of misbehaviour *does* work, and may in cases be
the key to the long term solution. But it may also be a false solution, in
that the horse does finally walk because he's exhausted, but he hasn't
really learned anything.  Such a horse will walk slowly back to the barn
on a loose rein, but when he's fresh he *still* may not listen to the
rider.  I've known people who have tried the "circle as correction"
technique who have created horses that throw themselves into a circle
after a spook, because they think that's part of the whole experience.

I do a mixture of circles/serpentines/slow walk/fast walk/halt both going
toward the barn and away from the barn with Rudy to get him used to the
idea that he must listen to me at all times.  He's far from perfect but
he's getting the idea.

Quote:

> All ideologies of training agree that any unacceptable behavior must be
> corrected at the time and place it occurs. This is because the horse thinks
> here and now. The horse reacts to certain stimuli that triggers the
> unacceptable behavior. Change the behavior and you change the way the horse
> reacts to the stimuli.

Gotta disagree with the "absolute" nature of this statement :-).  If you
have a horse who shies, you can *make* the horse walk by that scary thing
in the right now but many of us have had the experience where the horse
continues to shy at the same things, or the same type of things, no matter
how many times we correct his behaviour in the "here and now".  The key is
to make sure that the horse is listening to the rider, and that needs to
be done all the time, not just at the site of the misbehaviour.

I've never considered what Alice suggests -- going all the way back to the
barn before correcting the horse -- because it seems to me that that may
be waiting *too* long (depending on the distance from the barn of course,
and the level of misbehaviour).  But I agree with the premise of getting
the horse's attention away from the barn, and on the rider.  

Maybe the key is that the work gets done when (and where) the horse is
capable of learning the lesson that he must listen to the rider.  So if
the work is done at the barn, where he feels safe, that might be better
than trying to do it a mile from home, if his "brain is in the barn" and
he's not listening to his rider and is basically in "flight" mode.  A
well-broke horse who just needs a reminder may get the idea with a few
circles, but a horse who does not accept his rider as alpha (who has a
stronger need to get back to his herd at the barn) may just become
exhausted with endless circles, and make no progress towards learning the
correct behaviour.

Quote:

> down the tejas trails....
> jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas

Betty
 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Jane H. Kilbe » Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:00:00


re: Alice's method of behavi***correction of a barn sour horse

Quote:
> > So, according to your method of re-training unacceptable behavior of a
> > horse who acts up on the ride back to the barn, you would not correct that
> > behavior when it occurs. Rather because it is connected with the horse's
> > herd desire (to get back to the barn), you would wait until you are back at
> > the barn to correct the horse.
> The circling at the site of misbehaviour *does* work, and may in cases be
> the key to the long term solution. But it may also be a false solution, in
> that the horse does finally walk because he's exhausted,

Only if you want to work him to the point of exhaustion <SEG> Besides, I
hate circling - it makes me dizzy. <G> The point is to correct the behavior
when it occurs.

Quote:
> but he hasn't
> really learned anything.  Such a horse will walk slowly back to the barn
> on a loose rein, but when he's fresh he *still* may not listen to the
> rider.

Then this is the problem of communication between the rider and the horse,
not because the horse wasn't worked at the barn vs a mile away! <g>

Quote:
> I've known people who have tried the "circle as correction"
> technique who have created horses that throw themselves into a circle
> after a spook, because they think that's part of the whole experience.

Then the method chosen was a poor one. The objective or goal is to get the
horse to focus on the rider, not the desires of the horse (unacceptable
behavior in an attempt to run back to the barnyard or herd).

Quote:
> I do a mixture of circles/serpentines/slow walk/fast walk/halt both going
> toward the barn and away from the barn with Rudy to get him used to the
> idea that he must listen to me at all times.  He's far from perfect but
> he's getting the idea.

Use whatever tools/methods works for you and your horse to educate Rudy
that he needs to focus on you.

Quote:
> > All ideologies of training agree that any unacceptable behavior must be
> > corrected at the time and place it occurs. This is because the horse thinks
> > here and now. The horse reacts to certain stimuli that triggers the
> > unacceptable behavior. Change the behavior and you change the way the horse
> > reacts to the stimuli.
> Gotta disagree with the "absolute" nature of this statement :-).  

Ha! I should have known better than use absolutes with horses!

Quote:
> If you
> have a horse who shies, you can *make* the horse walk by that scary thing
> in the right now but many of us have had the experience where the horse
> continues to shy at the same things, or the same type of things, no matter
> how many times we correct his behaviour in the "here and now".

Then the person hasn't been successful in changing the unacceptable behavior.

Quote:
> The key is
> to make sure that the horse is listening to the rider, and that needs to
> be done all the time, not just at the site of the misbehaviour.

That's the key to successful training - focus on the rider/handler. But you
certainly can't correct unacceptable behavior later on in the time frame.

Quote:
> I've never considered what Alice suggests -- going all the way back to the
> barn before correcting the horse -- because it seems to me that that may
> be waiting *too* long (depending on the distance from the barn of course,
> and the level of misbehaviour).  But I agree with the premise of getting
> the horse's attention away from the barn, and on the rider.  

If you are at the barn and the horse has unacceptable behavior, then you
correct it there, when it occurs. If you are a mile away from the barn and
the horse begins to have unacceptable behavior by ignoring the rider
because it wants to get back to the herdmates, or some monster is gonna get
it, you correct it there. If the horse's attention diverts from the rider,
one must correct the unacceptable behavior when and where it occurs,
regardless. It is a problem of focus on the rider.

Quote:
> Maybe the key is that the work gets done when (and where) the horse is
> capable of learning the lesson that he must listen to the rider.

Nope, the key is that the work gets done when and where the horse is doing
unacceptable behavior. The horse is capable of learning only if focused on
the rider and associates the lesson with the behavior.

Quote:
> So if
> the work is done at the barn, where he feels safe, that might be better
> than trying to do it a mile from home,

Nope, because the horse isn't doing anything unacceptable. He wants to be
at the barn, so he won't act up.

Quote:
>if his "brain is in the barn" and
> he's not listening to his rider and is basically in "flight" mode.

No, he's not focused on the rider and if he wants to get back to the barn
to the herd, he doesn't view the rider as being alpha at that time.

Quote:
> A
> well-broke horse who just needs a reminder may get the idea with a few
> circles,

Only if you want to do circles to get the horse to focus on the rider and
if the horse responds with focus on the rider. There are many many methods
and tools available to work on the focus, not just circling.

Quote:
> but a horse who does not accept his rider as alpha (who has a
> stronger need to get back to his herd at the barn) may just become
> exhausted with endless circles, and make no progress towards learning the
> correct behaviour.

Once again, that is the fault of the rider who only knows one method/tool
to adjust the horse's focus back on the rider. And it doesn't matter
whether you are a mile from the barn or in the arena or pasture or even in
the barn stall. If the horse ain't focused on you, it ain't focused on you
regardless of where or when. So correct that, it must be at the time the
horse ain't focused on you.

down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas

 
 
 

Barn Sour

Post by Betty Woo » Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:00:00



Quote:





<snip>

Quote:

> > The circling at the site of misbehaviour *does* work, and may in cases be
> > the key to the long term solution. But it may also be a false solution, in
> > that the horse does finally walk because he's exhausted,

> Only if you want to work him to the point of exhaustion <SEG>

Well, the results I get aren't always exactly what I set out to get -- so
even if I set out to do one thing, I may end up getting another.  That's
because my experience has been with a relatively limited number of horses
and a limited number of trainers.  So I don't set out to work a horse to
exhaustion, but I've come rather closer than I'd like at times when I get
stuck in the rut of telling the horse "you will do "X" " but with a
limited number of ways to get to the "X".

Quote:
> Besides, I
> hate circling - it makes me dizzy. <G> The point is to correct the behavior
> when it occurs.

So, you're a mile from the barn and your horse wants to jig home.  What do
you do?  Does this differ if you're 10 miles from home?  Does it differ if
he wants to bolt home?  If he starts out wanting to bolt but you can get
him to settle for a jig, do you accept that?  Do you ever let him jig home
because it is getting dark, for example, and think about ways to work on
the communication problem in another setting?

Quote:

> > but he hasn't
> > really learned anything.  Such a horse will walk slowly back to the barn
> > on a loose rein, but when he's fresh he *still* may not listen to the
> > rider.

> Then this is the problem of communication between the rider and the horse,
> not because the horse wasn't worked at the barn vs a mile away! <g>

But you don't know there's a problem in communication 'til the horse acts
up, do you?  I'd say the problem of communication is because the horse
*wasn't* worked properly at home, which manifests itself as misbehaviour
when asked to do something different than the norm, because the horse is
improperly untrained.  

Quote:

> > I've known people who have tried the "circle as correction"
> > technique who have created horses that throw themselves into a circle
> > after a spook, because they think that's part of the whole experience.

> Then the method chosen was a poor one. The objective or goal is to get the
> horse to focus on the rider, not the desires of the horse (unacceptable
> behavior in an attempt to run back to the barnyard or herd).

Right.  The problem is bigger than "I'm not gonna listen to you because
we're a mile from home"  -- it's "I'm not gonna listen to you because I
don't want to and I don't have to."  And that has to be worked on
*everywhere.*

Quote:

> > I do a mixture of circles/serpentines/slow walk/fast walk/halt both going
> > toward the barn and away from the barn with Rudy to get him used to the
> > idea that he must listen to me at all times.  He's far from perfect but
> > he's getting the idea.

> Use whatever tools/methods works for you and your horse to educate Rudy
> that he needs to focus on you.

> > > All ideologies of training agree that any unacceptable behavior must be
> > > corrected at the time and place it occurs. This is because the horse
thinks
> > > here and now. The horse reacts to certain stimuli that triggers the
> > > unacceptable behavior. Change the behavior and you change the way
the horse
> > > reacts to the stimuli.

> > Gotta disagree with the "absolute" nature of this statement :-).  

> Ha! I should have known better than use absolutes with horses!

> > If you
> > have a horse who shies, you can *make* the horse walk by that scary thing
> > in the right now but many of us have had the experience where the horse
> > continues to shy at the same things, or the same type of things, no matter
> > how many times we correct his behaviour in the "here and now".

> Then the person hasn't been successful in changing the unacceptable behavior.

The rider may be successful in changing the behaviour *now* (the horse
walks by the object without shying once or twice) but he hasn't changed
the behaviour pattern because he hasn't gotten to the root of the problem,
which I think we agree is the lack of focus on/trust in the rider.

Quote:

> > The key is
> > to make sure that the horse is listening to the rider, and that needs to
> > be done all the time, not just at the site of the misbehaviour.

> That's the key to successful training - focus on the rider/handler. But you
> certainly can't correct unacceptable behavior later on in the time frame.

I can make Rudy walk on the way home from a trail ride, but he's not
always relaxed about it, and I find I have to use rather more hand than
I'd like.  So I incorporate more work with teaching him seat cues when I'm
in the ring, knowing that this will translate into another tool to get him
to slow down next time we go out.  But I certainly wouldn't try to *teach*
him those cues when I was in a hairy situation a mile from home, at
feeding time, when he could see his buddies in the distance.

<snip>

Quote:

> If you are at the barn and the horse has unacceptable behavior, then you
> correct it there, when it occurs. If you are a mile away from the barn and
> the horse begins to have unacceptable behavior by ignoring the rider
> because it wants to get back to the herdmates, or some monster is gonna get
> it, you correct it there. If the horse's attention diverts from the rider,
> one must correct the unacceptable behavior when and where it occurs,
> regardless. It is a problem of focus on the rider.

I agree that the problem is focus on the rider. But it didn't start a mile
from home -- chances are, it started at the barn -- ie if he was *really*
paying attention to you at the barn, he'd be paying attention to you a
mile from home.  

Quote:

> > Maybe the key is that the work gets done when (and where) the horse is
> > capable of learning the lesson that he must listen to the rider.

> Nope, the key is that the work gets done when and where the horse is doing
> unacceptable behavior. The horse is capable of learning only if focused on
> the rider and associates the lesson with the behavior.

> > So if
> > the work is done at the barn, where he feels safe, that might be better
> > than trying to do it a mile from home,

> Nope, because the horse isn't doing anything unacceptable. He wants to be
> at the barn, so he won't act up.

But developing the communication necessary for the horse to focus on the
rider doesn't happen only when the horse acts up!  It happens during every
interaction!  So, every bit of work you do at the barn is going to have
some impact on what the horse does a mile from the barn.  If the horse
*really* knows the cue to walk, he'll do it a mile from home just as well
as he does it at home.  And if he doesn't *really* know it, you can teach
it just as well at home.

Quote:

> >if his "brain is in the barn" and
> > he's not listening to his rider and is basically in "flight" mode.

> No, he's not focused on the rider and if he wants to get back to the barn
> to the herd, he doesn't view the rider as being alpha at that time.

Just at that time?  Or doesn't view the rider as alpha, period?  Is it
possible that a horse thinks a handler is alpha at the barn but not a mile
from home?

Quote:

> > A
> > well-broke horse who just needs a reminder may get the idea with a few
> > circles,

> Only if you want to do circles to get the horse to focus on the rider and
> if the horse responds with focus on the rider. There are many many methods
> and tools available to work on the focus, not just circling.

Can you name some for those of us who have had many trainers, *all* of
whom have recommended some variation of circle/halt/back for this sort of
problem?

<snip>

Quote:
> Once again, that is the fault of the rider who only knows one method/tool
> to adjust the horse's focus back on the rider. And it doesn't matter
> whether you are a mile from the barn or in the arena or pasture or even in
> the barn stall. If the horse ain't focused on you, it ain't focused on you
> regardless of where or when. So correct that, it must be at the time the
> horse ain't focused on you.

So you don't think the work done at home to get the horse focused on the
rider can habituate the horse to listening to the rider in strange
situations?  Such that the "correction" is a mere reminder ("I said walk")
rather than a potentially dangerous battle far from home?

I think the problem is, Jane, that you have many more tools than most
folks to deal with difficulties, so you forget that it's not so simple for
some! :-).  

On my last hack, Rudy was the only horse of 4 who stood still when asked,
and did not offer to buck or rear when we turned back towards the barn and
I asked for a walk.  I firmly believe that's directly because of the work
I've done to make him listen to me back at the barn, when he's not
misbehaving.  The other folks I was riding with work on trot and canter at
home; I work a lot more on transitions, walking, and halting, etc.  If he
had been less compliant, I'm not sure what I would have done -- on the way
home there were patches of ice, roads with idiots driving their SUVs too
fast, kids sledding and playing hockey -- not the place to safely make a
point about who was boss given my abilities and tool kit.

I think that poor behaviour away from home reflects something missing in
the training at home, and IME addressing that at home does prevent future
problems from occurring, even if you allow the horse to jig a bit on one
occasion.

Quote:

> down the tejas trails....
> jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas

Betty