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<snip>
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> > The circling at the site of misbehaviour *does* work, and may in cases be
> > the key to the long term solution. But it may also be a false solution, in
> > that the horse does finally walk because he's exhausted,
> Only if you want to work him to the point of exhaustion <SEG>
Well, the results I get aren't always exactly what I set out to get -- so
even if I set out to do one thing, I may end up getting another. That's
because my experience has been with a relatively limited number of horses
and a limited number of trainers. So I don't set out to work a horse to
exhaustion, but I've come rather closer than I'd like at times when I get
stuck in the rut of telling the horse "you will do "X" " but with a
limited number of ways to get to the "X".
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> Besides, I
> hate circling - it makes me dizzy. <G> The point is to correct the behavior
> when it occurs.
So, you're a mile from the barn and your horse wants to jig home. What do
you do? Does this differ if you're 10 miles from home? Does it differ if
he wants to bolt home? If he starts out wanting to bolt but you can get
him to settle for a jig, do you accept that? Do you ever let him jig home
because it is getting dark, for example, and think about ways to work on
the communication problem in another setting?
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> > but he hasn't
> > really learned anything. Such a horse will walk slowly back to the barn
> > on a loose rein, but when he's fresh he *still* may not listen to the
> > rider.
> Then this is the problem of communication between the rider and the horse,
> not because the horse wasn't worked at the barn vs a mile away! <g>
But you don't know there's a problem in communication 'til the horse acts
up, do you? I'd say the problem of communication is because the horse
*wasn't* worked properly at home, which manifests itself as misbehaviour
when asked to do something different than the norm, because the horse is
improperly untrained.
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> > I've known people who have tried the "circle as correction"
> > technique who have created horses that throw themselves into a circle
> > after a spook, because they think that's part of the whole experience.
> Then the method chosen was a poor one. The objective or goal is to get the
> horse to focus on the rider, not the desires of the horse (unacceptable
> behavior in an attempt to run back to the barnyard or herd).
Right. The problem is bigger than "I'm not gonna listen to you because
we're a mile from home" -- it's "I'm not gonna listen to you because I
don't want to and I don't have to." And that has to be worked on
*everywhere.*
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> > I do a mixture of circles/serpentines/slow walk/fast walk/halt both going
> > toward the barn and away from the barn with Rudy to get him used to the
> > idea that he must listen to me at all times. He's far from perfect but
> > he's getting the idea.
> Use whatever tools/methods works for you and your horse to educate Rudy
> that he needs to focus on you.
> > > All ideologies of training agree that any unacceptable behavior must be
> > > corrected at the time and place it occurs. This is because the horse
thinks
> > > here and now. The horse reacts to certain stimuli that triggers the
> > > unacceptable behavior. Change the behavior and you change the way
the horse
> > > reacts to the stimuli.
> > Gotta disagree with the "absolute" nature of this statement :-).
> Ha! I should have known better than use absolutes with horses!
> > If you
> > have a horse who shies, you can *make* the horse walk by that scary thing
> > in the right now but many of us have had the experience where the horse
> > continues to shy at the same things, or the same type of things, no matter
> > how many times we correct his behaviour in the "here and now".
> Then the person hasn't been successful in changing the unacceptable behavior.
The rider may be successful in changing the behaviour *now* (the horse
walks by the object without shying once or twice) but he hasn't changed
the behaviour pattern because he hasn't gotten to the root of the problem,
which I think we agree is the lack of focus on/trust in the rider.
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> > The key is
> > to make sure that the horse is listening to the rider, and that needs to
> > be done all the time, not just at the site of the misbehaviour.
> That's the key to successful training - focus on the rider/handler. But you
> certainly can't correct unacceptable behavior later on in the time frame.
I can make Rudy walk on the way home from a trail ride, but he's not
always relaxed about it, and I find I have to use rather more hand than
I'd like. So I incorporate more work with teaching him seat cues when I'm
in the ring, knowing that this will translate into another tool to get him
to slow down next time we go out. But I certainly wouldn't try to *teach*
him those cues when I was in a hairy situation a mile from home, at
feeding time, when he could see his buddies in the distance.
<snip>
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> If you are at the barn and the horse has unacceptable behavior, then you
> correct it there, when it occurs. If you are a mile away from the barn and
> the horse begins to have unacceptable behavior by ignoring the rider
> because it wants to get back to the herdmates, or some monster is gonna get
> it, you correct it there. If the horse's attention diverts from the rider,
> one must correct the unacceptable behavior when and where it occurs,
> regardless. It is a problem of focus on the rider.
I agree that the problem is focus on the rider. But it didn't start a mile
from home -- chances are, it started at the barn -- ie if he was *really*
paying attention to you at the barn, he'd be paying attention to you a
mile from home.
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> > Maybe the key is that the work gets done when (and where) the horse is
> > capable of learning the lesson that he must listen to the rider.
> Nope, the key is that the work gets done when and where the horse is doing
> unacceptable behavior. The horse is capable of learning only if focused on
> the rider and associates the lesson with the behavior.
> > So if
> > the work is done at the barn, where he feels safe, that might be better
> > than trying to do it a mile from home,
> Nope, because the horse isn't doing anything unacceptable. He wants to be
> at the barn, so he won't act up.
But developing the communication necessary for the horse to focus on the
rider doesn't happen only when the horse acts up! It happens during every
interaction! So, every bit of work you do at the barn is going to have
some impact on what the horse does a mile from the barn. If the horse
*really* knows the cue to walk, he'll do it a mile from home just as well
as he does it at home. And if he doesn't *really* know it, you can teach
it just as well at home.
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> >if his "brain is in the barn" and
> > he's not listening to his rider and is basically in "flight" mode.
> No, he's not focused on the rider and if he wants to get back to the barn
> to the herd, he doesn't view the rider as being alpha at that time.
Just at that time? Or doesn't view the rider as alpha, period? Is it
possible that a horse thinks a handler is alpha at the barn but not a mile
from home?
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> > A
> > well-broke horse who just needs a reminder may get the idea with a few
> > circles,
> Only if you want to do circles to get the horse to focus on the rider and
> if the horse responds with focus on the rider. There are many many methods
> and tools available to work on the focus, not just circling.
Can you name some for those of us who have had many trainers, *all* of
whom have recommended some variation of circle/halt/back for this sort of
problem?
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> Once again, that is the fault of the rider who only knows one method/tool
> to adjust the horse's focus back on the rider. And it doesn't matter
> whether you are a mile from the barn or in the arena or pasture or even in
> the barn stall. If the horse ain't focused on you, it ain't focused on you
> regardless of where or when. So correct that, it must be at the time the
> horse ain't focused on you.
So you don't think the work done at home to get the horse focused on the
rider can habituate the horse to listening to the rider in strange
situations? Such that the "correction" is a mere reminder ("I said walk")
rather than a potentially dangerous battle far from home?
I think the problem is, Jane, that you have many more tools than most
folks to deal with difficulties, so you forget that it's not so simple for
some! :-).
On my last hack, Rudy was the only horse of 4 who stood still when asked,
and did not offer to buck or rear when we turned back towards the barn and
I asked for a walk. I firmly believe that's directly because of the work
I've done to make him listen to me back at the barn, when he's not
misbehaving. The other folks I was riding with work on trot and canter at
home; I work a lot more on transitions, walking, and halting, etc. If he
had been less compliant, I'm not sure what I would have done -- on the way
home there were patches of ice, roads with idiots driving their SUVs too
fast, kids sledding and playing hockey -- not the place to safely make a
point about who was boss given my abilities and tool kit.
I think that poor behaviour away from home reflects something missing in
the training at home, and IME addressing that at home does prevent future
problems from occurring, even if you allow the horse to jig a bit on one
occasion.
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> down the tejas trails....
> jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas
Betty