Training Questions?

Training Questions?

Post by Emily Brook » Sat, 29 Sep 2007 04:58:31


I depend upon you people to come up with a training question of the week for
my instructor. Last week it was shoulder-in vs haunches-in for sneaking in
the correct lead in a test. This week we haven't had any training
discussions that have stuck to my brain. What poser have we to further my
education?

You have 'til really early Saturday morning ...

Emily - my Coggins' are expired - eek!

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Ocean of Nuanc » Sat, 29 Sep 2007 05:17:28


|I depend upon you people to come up with a training question of the week
for
| my instructor. Last week it was shoulder-in vs haunches-in for sneaking in
| the correct lead in a test.

Can I ask what the answer was from your trainer?  Did he use the word,
"unlettered?"  : )

| This week we haven't had any training
| discussions that have stuck to my brain. What poser have we to further my
| education?
|
| You have 'til really early Saturday morning ...

Ask him what the bottom line on rolkur is.  ; )

sharon

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Emily Brook » Sat, 29 Sep 2007 05:26:07



Quote:

> | This week we haven't had any training
> | discussions that have stuck to my brain. What poser have we to further
> my
> | education?
> |
> | You have 'til really early Saturday morning ...

> Ask him what the bottom line on rolkur is.  ; )

> sharon

No, no, no. New training questions :-) Rolkur sucks.

Emily

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Ocean of Nuanc » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 00:23:25


|


| >
| > | This week we haven't had any training
| > | discussions that have stuck to my brain. What poser have we to further
| > my
| > | education?
| > |
| > | You have 'til really early Saturday morning ...
| >
| > Ask him what the bottom line on rolkur is.  ; )
| >
| > sharon
| >
|
| No, no, no. New training questions :-) Rolkur sucks.

Why is half pass described, and often trained as, travers on a diagonal when
it looks more like SI on a diagonal?  Also, why is canter pirouette trained
as travers on an ever decreasing circle when the shoulders should lead
AFAIK?

sharon

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Emily Brook » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 01:54:08



Quote:



> |


> | >
> | > | This week we haven't had any training
> | > | discussions that have stuck to my brain. What poser have we to
> further
> | > my
> | > | education?
> | > |
> | > | You have 'til really early Saturday morning ...
> | >
> | > Ask him what the bottom line on rolkur is.  ; )
> | >
> | > sharon
> | >
> |
> | No, no, no. New training questions :-) Rolkur sucks.

> Why is half pass described, and often trained as, travers on a diagonal
> when
> it looks more like SI on a diagonal?  Also, why is canter pirouette
> trained
> as travers on an ever decreasing circle when the shoulders should lead
> AFAIK?

> sharon

You are 3.5 hrs late :-) And these questions are way over my head. It's all
the rec's fault that I've spent the last two lessons doing shoulder-in
anyway! Except for the part of today's lesson spent in walk-canter
transitions.

Before Richard showed up today I did manage to do turn on the forehand
without coming to a complete halt and thinking about it though. In both
directions. A first! I might be getting this here riding thing after all.

Emily

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Sharon Potte » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:32:07

Quote:

> Why is half pass described, and often trained as, travers on a diagonal when
> it looks more like SI on a diagonal?  Also, why is canter pirouette trained
> as travers on an ever decreasing circle when the shoulders should lead
> AFAIK?

> sharon

<G> I'll play....

Half pass done correctly looks like travers on a diagonal, but ideally,
neither shoulders or haunches should look like they're obviously
leading.  Hard to do really correctly.  When it looks like shoulder in
on a diagonal, it's being done wrong.   What usually happens is that the
rider is riding the front end and hoping the back end will keep up ;-)

Canter pirouette is most easily trained by thinking travers because if
too much focus is on the front end, the hindquarters will fall out, lose
the rhythm and the inside shoulder will drop.  Thinking about travers
means thinking about keeping the hindquarters where they're supposed to
be and preserving the correctness of the pirouette.

Both are more about mental imagery to help the rider do it properly than
about what it's really supposed to look like, at least in my opinion.

Sharon Potter
Red Branch

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Ocean of Nuanc » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:40:48



|
| >
| > Why is half pass described, and often trained as, travers on a diagonal
when
| > it looks more like SI on a diagonal?  Also, why is canter pirouette
trained
| > as travers on an ever decreasing circle when the shoulders should lead
| > AFAIK?
| >
| > sharon
| >
|
| <G> I'll play....
|
| Half pass done correctly looks like travers on a diagonal, but ideally,
| neither shoulders or haunches should look like they're obviously
| leading.  Hard to do really correctly.  When it looks like shoulder in
| on a diagonal, it's being done wrong.   What usually happens is that the
| rider is riding the front end and hoping the back end will keep up ;-)

Wow.  That is specifically NOT what I have heard folks say.  Looking from
straight ahead towards he horse, the horse is bent about the outside leg and
the shoulders, not the haunches should be slightly leading.  When I was
grounding, I was asked to correct the rider if the shoulders were not
slightly leading or if the horse was not bent enough/too straight or the
haunches were leading.  Also, I have seen several of them ridden in lessons
and clinic situations and the shoulders were always leading when it was said
to be correct AFAICT.

Now I'm very confused.

| Canter pirouette is most easily trained by thinking travers because if
| too much focus is on the front end, the hindquarters will fall out, lose
| the rhythm and the inside shoulder will drop.  Thinking about travers
| means thinking about keeping the hindquarters where they're supposed to
| be and preserving the correctness of the pirouette.

Ah now this sounds like one of those things where you train a slightly
harder movement en route so that you can more easily get the less hard,
correct movement.  Is that correct?

| Both are more about mental imagery to help the rider do it properly than
| about what it's really supposed to look like, at least in my opinion.

Well, based on the auditing I have done, the shoulders should look like they
are slightly leading in the HP, not the haunches.  Remember, HI is almost
always unlettered by default.  ; )  In fact some folks advocate never
training travers because the horse so easily can do it.

Thanks,
sharon

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Ocean of Nuanc » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:42:44


| Wow.  That is specifically NOT what I have heard folks say.  Looking from
| straight ahead towards he horse, the horse is bent about the outside leg
and

or inside, depending.  I should say the horse is clearly bent around the leg
that is leading the direction.

- the other sharon

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Emily Brook » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 04:22:00



Quote:




> |
> | >
> | > Why is half pass described, and often trained as, travers on a
> diagonal
> when
> | > it looks more like SI on a diagonal?  Also, why is canter pirouette
> trained
> | > as travers on an ever decreasing circle when the shoulders should lead
> | > AFAIK?
> | >
> | > sharon
> | >
> |
> | <G> I'll play....
> |
> | Half pass done correctly looks like travers on a diagonal, but ideally,
> | neither shoulders or haunches should look like they're obviously
> | leading.  Hard to do really correctly.  When it looks like shoulder in
> | on a diagonal, it's being done wrong.   What usually happens is that the
> | rider is riding the front end and hoping the back end will keep up ;-)

> Wow.  That is specifically NOT what I have heard folks say.  Looking from
> straight ahead towards he horse, the horse is bent about the outside leg
> and
> the shoulders, not the haunches should be slightly leading.  When I was
> grounding, I was asked to correct the rider if the shoulders were not
> slightly leading or if the horse was not bent enough/too straight or the
> haunches were leading.  Also, I have seen several of them ridden in
> lessons
> and clinic situations and the shoulders were always leading when it was
> said
> to be correct AFAICT.

> sharon

I think in half pass neither the shoulder nor the hauches should be leading
(I think that's kinda what Sharon P said). Not that I could ride it
properly - at least not on poor Cash!

Emily

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Ocean of Nuanc » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 04:35:06


|


| >



| > |
| > | >
| > | > Why is half pass described, and often trained as, travers on a
| > diagonal
| > when
| > | > it looks more like SI on a diagonal?  Also, why is canter pirouette
| > trained
| > | > as travers on an ever decreasing circle when the shoulders should
lead
| > | > AFAIK?
| > | >
| > | > sharon
| > | >
| > |
| > | <G> I'll play....
| > |
| > | Half pass done correctly looks like travers on a diagonal, but
ideally,
| > | neither shoulders or haunches should look like they're obviously
| > | leading.  Hard to do really correctly.  When it looks like shoulder in
| > | on a diagonal, it's being done wrong.   What usually happens is that
the
| > | rider is riding the front end and hoping the back end will keep up ;-)
| >
| > Wow.  That is specifically NOT what I have heard folks say.  Looking
from
| > straight ahead towards he horse, the horse is bent about the outside leg
| > and
| > the shoulders, not the haunches should be slightly leading.  When I was
| > grounding, I was asked to correct the rider if the shoulders were not
| > slightly leading or if the horse was not bent enough/too straight or the
| > haunches were leading.  Also, I have seen several of them ridden in
| > lessons
| > and clinic situations and the shoulders were always leading when it was
| > said
| > to be correct AFAICT.
| >
| > sharon
| >
|
| I think in half pass neither the shoulder nor the hauches should be
leading
| (I think that's kinda what Sharon P said). Not that I could ride it
| properly - at least not on poor Cash!

Please direct your attention to page 24 in this .pdf

http://www.ponyclubvic.org.au/site/ponyclub/vic/downloads/Publication...

It says BOTH that HP is a variation on travers AND that the shoulders should
slightly lead, precisely what I said earlier and how I was told to ground.
N.B. Figure 9.6.

Love,
still confused why that isn't a variation on SI vice travers given the
leading shoulders.

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by J. Z. M » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:42:46


Quote:

> It says BOTH that HP is a variation on travers AND that the shoulders should
> slightly lead, precisely what I said earlier and how I was told to ground.
> N.B. Figure 9.6.

> Love,
> still confused why that isn't a variation on SI vice travers given the
> leading shoulders.

Okay.

Have you seen written diagrams of the horse in action in these exercises?
They would help you a great deal.  "101 Arena Exercises" has all of them in
diagrams I believe.

Here's the deal on the half pass versus SI problem you are having. Yes, the
bend of the body is the same in each exercise, but the use of YOUR body and
the direction of the shoulder is different.  Going hlf pass left: Horse bent
around your inside leg with outside hand holding (could even be slightly up
on neck), direction of shoulders is to the inside of track, you push the
horse over with the outside shoulder, his inside should be loose and giving
as your inside hand is loose and giving. The haunches stay to the right of
the movement, the outside right leg back (but near the girth) and you are
asking the horse to move to the left with your right leg.

Going to the left in SI (down long side): Horse is bend to the left, the
shoulder is INSIDE the track, but you are using your insdie leg actively
moving the horse in the direction of movement with your inside leg [remember
above your outside leg was active], and the horse is moving to the track
with power on his inside shoulder and leg (IE) lightening his outside
shoulder and outside hind, activating his inside hind leg.

Whew---never wrote all this down before. So think action in half pass is
outside aids to move the horse to the left, but the SI is inside aids moving
the horse on the wall straight to his outside shoulder.

 A great exercise is a box with Haunches IN (which IS THE Same as half pass
in aids) and then at the corner change aids__ inside aids__ and do a SI on
the next side of your box.

So the horse might LOOK the same in his shape, but he is working two sides
of the body and you have to work the opposite aids to achieve both
movements.

Is this any clearer?  Also, yes, the haunches have to lead on a half pass,
because as I said it is actually a HI on a diagonal.  Shoulder in is a
valuable tool as an exercise for lightening the outside shoulder, even as
much as creating inside flexion on the rear inside, and many people are
unaware of it's value this way. This is also the reason you must not bend
the horse at the neck to appear in bend, it must be the shoulder sling and
scapula that moves to the angles, this rotates the thorax and gives the
horse an exceptionally good exercise for a tight shoulder.  More than you
needed to know, eh?  :)

Jody

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Ocean of Nuanc » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:33:10




|
| >
| > It says BOTH that HP is a variation on travers AND that the shoulders
should
| > slightly lead, precisely what I said earlier and how I was told to
ground.
| > N.B. Figure 9.6.
| >
| > Love,
| > still confused why that isn't a variation on SI vice travers given the
| > leading shoulders.
|
|
| Okay.
|
|
| Have you seen written diagrams of the horse in action in these exercises?
| They would help you a great deal.  "101 Arena Exercises" has all of them
in
| diagrams I believe.

I need to get that book.  But I have seen many illustrations of HP that are
identical to the one I posted showing the shoudlers, not the haunches,
leading (slightly).  If the haunches were leading, I would agree it looks
exactly like travers on a diagonal.

| Here's the deal on the half pass versus SI problem you are having. Yes,
the
| bend of the body is the same in each exercise, but the use of YOUR body
and
| the direction of the shoulder is different.  Going hlf pass left: Horse
bent
| around your inside leg with outside hand holding (could even be slightly
up
| on neck), direction of shoulders is to the inside of track, you push the
| horse over with the outside shoulder, his inside should be loose and
giving
| as your inside hand is loose and giving. The haunches stay to the right of
| the movement, the outside right leg back (but near the girth) and you are
| asking the horse to move to the left with your right leg.
|
| Going to the left in SI (down long side): Horse is bend to the left, the
| shoulder is INSIDE the track, but you are using your insdie leg actively
| moving the horse in the direction of movement with your inside leg
[remember
| above your outside leg was active], and the horse is moving to the track
| with power on his inside shoulder and leg (IE) lightening his outside
| shoulder and outside hind, activating his inside hind leg.
|
| Whew---never wrote all this down before. So think action in half pass is
| outside aids to move the horse to the left, but the SI is inside aids
moving
| the horse on the wall straight to his outside shoulder.

That's very understandable.  You are saying the aiding is entirely different
between SI and HP and I understand that.  I'm just saying HP, looking down
from the ceiling let's say, looks like this going left:

\
 |

horse moving from the lower right to upper left and the bend should be even,
not broken at the heck like the figure shows.  This is shoulders leading the
movement.

If someone told me to illustrate a travers on the diagonal, I would draw the
following:

 |
/

horse again moving from the lower right to upper left.  That is what it
means to me for haunches to be leading.

Now as I understand Sharon P., answer, the correct way to ride it is as
follows:

\
/

| A great exercise is a box with Haunches IN (which IS THE Same as half pass
| in aids) and then at the corner change aids__ inside aids__ and do a SI on
| the next side of your box.

I'll remember that exercise.  It looks fun.

| So the horse might LOOK the same in his shape, but he is working two sides
| of the body and you have to work the opposite aids to achieve both
| movements.

Yes I understand the aiding is different but I am trying to understand how
the movements are oriented w.r.t. the long side.  When doing HP left, which
is physically closer to the left wall at all times, the horse's haunches or
the shoulders?

| Is this any clearer?  Also, yes, the haunches have to lead on a half pass,
| because as I said it is actually a HI on a diagonal.  Shoulder in is a
| valuable tool as an exercise for lightening the outside shoulder, even as
| much as creating inside flexion on the rear inside, and many people are
| unaware of it's value this way. This is also the reason you must not bend
| the horse at the neck to appear in bend, it must be the shoulder sling and
| scapula that moves to the angles, this rotates the thorax and gives the
| horse an exceptionally good exercise for a tight shoulder.  More than you
| needed to know, eh?  :)

It was a very clear description of how you ride each side in SI and HP.
I'll keep the post.

Thanks.

sharon

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by J. Z. M » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:55:09


Quote:
> Yes I understand the aiding is different but I am trying to understand how
> the movements are oriented w.r.t. the long side.  When doing HP left, which
> is physically closer to the left wall at all times, the horse's haunches or
> the shoulders?

Shoulders.  The horse should have his nose at the apex of the whole bend of
the body.
       o               (head)
        /                 (body)
       /                 (haunches)

Nose first, bend in body, haunches right to the inside of leading nose. If
you lead with the haunches you are taking away the lightening of the
forehand and the shoulder rotation which is your goal when you are using
this as a strenghtening exercise.  The haunches will be carrying too much of
the load, it should be even loading on all four feet.

The hind leg crossing is a by product, it is the shoulder rotation you are
working on. Many people think (way too many) this is a leg exercise, it is
not.   You see everyone likes to think they are increasing flexion of the
hind leg, well, you are to a certain degree, but horses only have a limited
amount they can flex in the fixed hock joint. What they have is more
infinite power to increase is the muscle sling around the shoulders and
thorax region, this can be increased far more by rotation than any other
exercise. The horse has to rotate the sling in order to raise the muscles,
and increase his flexion in the rest of his body.  These muscles are your
core for collection, stronger shoulder sling means more raising at the
withers and far easier to connect to the back for the horse. The horse has
to 'come around' his body,  swing his muscles in a rotation which increases
strength, which increases the whole muscle mass on each side of the body,
and ultimately the large muscles around the femur. Once the muscles around
the femur can carry more, the horse will increase his stamina to the hind
leg which will now carry more weight, and let the horse go into collection
more easily through the entire body.

Many things are going on.  Biomechanically the whole horse is involved in
SI, and it's counter part huanches in or HP, It is far more important to be
very diligent on the bend through the entire body while doing these
exercises. If you only bend the neck in the swing does not take place. If
you only cross the hind legs you do not get the power to the shoulder sling.
If you do not make the nose the leader of the flow you stop the flow of
muscle energy at the withers, and it does not flow to the side muscles of
the horse. Whew___again! My best advice, make it a goal to do these things
often and correctly and your riding will improve tenfold.

Another problem with lateral exercises is the lack of 'forward', or the lag
time in learning the movement. Do not worry about this, get the bend first,
then take one step at a time in correct alignment,  this will be easier than
rushing through SI or HI in hurried steps and will make the horse learn the
exercise before increasing amplitude or speed.  You can walk for a couple of
weeks before trotting, mainly to get all your _hit together. :)

Jody

 
 
 

Training Questions?

Post by Ocean of Nuanc » Mon, 01 Oct 2007 10:19:28




|
| > Yes I understand the aiding is different but I am trying to understand
how
| > the movements are oriented w.r.t. the long side.  When doing HP left,
which
| > is physically closer to the left wall at all times, the horse's haunches
or
| > the shoulders?
|
|
| Shoulders.

Okay that is what I'm describing as "looking like" SI. Let's say you were
dong SI left down centerline.  The shoulders would be physically closer to
the left wall than the haunches, EXACTLY as in HP left.

Now if you were to come down centerline again in travers left, the haunches
would be physically closer to the left wall, NOT the case with HP left.

That's all I'm saying.

Maybe I don't understand the term "leading."  When I saying leading, I mean
the part of the body that is physically closer to the wall you are moving
towards.  I therefore can't understand saying that HP is travers on a
diagonal.

| The horse should have his nose at the apex of the whole bend of
| the body.
|       o               (head)
|        /                 (body)
|       /                 (haunches)
|

That's looking like Sharon P., description to me.

| Nose first, bend in body, haunches right to the inside of leading nose. If
| you lead with the haunches you are taking away the lightening of the
| forehand and the shoulder rotation which is your goal when you are using
| this as a strenghtening exercise.  The haunches will be carrying too much
of
| the load, it should be even loading on all four feet.
|
| The hind leg crossing is a by product, it is the shoulder rotation you are
| working on. Many people think (way too many) this is a leg exercise, it is
| not.   You see everyone likes to think they are increasing flexion of the
| hind leg, well, you are to a certain degree, but horses only have a
limited
| amount they can flex in the fixed hock joint. What they have is more
| infinite power to increase is the muscle sling around the shoulders and
| thorax region, this can be increased far more by rotation than any other
| exercise. The horse has to rotate the sling in order to raise the muscles,
| and increase his flexion in the rest of his body.  These muscles are your
| core for collection, stronger shoulder sling means more raising at the
| withers and far easier to connect to the back for the horse. The horse has
| to 'come around' his body,  swing his muscles in a rotation which
increases
| strength, which increases the whole muscle mass on each side of the body,
| and ultimately the large muscles around the femur. Once the muscles around
| the femur can carry more, the horse will increase his stamina to the hind
| leg which will now carry more weight, and let the horse go into collection
| more easily through the entire body.

That's a great description.  HP just looks like it takes so much strength,
expecially to do it flowingly and floatingly.  The horse has to build up to
it and has to be quite strong.

| Many things are going on.  Biomechanically the whole horse is involved in
| SI, and it's counter part huanches in or HP, It is far more important to
be
| very diligent on the bend through the entire body while doing these
| exercises. If you only bend the neck in the swing does not take place. If
| you only cross the hind legs you do not get the power to the shoulder
sling.
| If you do not make the nose the leader of the flow you stop the flow of
| muscle energy at the withers, and it does not flow to the side muscles of
| the horse. Whew___again! My best advice, make it a goal to do these things
| often and correctly and your riding will improve tenfold.

I'm not working on HP and won't be for some time.  I just asked because this
has been bothering me for a few years, since I starting auditing the upper
level lessons in Canada and then more so when I was grounding for my former
instructor down here and then reading that HP is travers on a diagonal.

Segueing from rehab into regular work, I am working on stretching each side
of body, getting the horse working evenly into the reins and then
consistently standing on the outside rein, moving straight.  I have been
working up to serpentines with correct change of bend.  When the school
figures are more consistent, we'll move on to some bending work on a line
(SI, travers).

| Another problem with lateral exercises is the lack of 'forward', or the
lag
| time in learning the movement. Do not worry about this, get the bend
first,
| then take one step at a time in correct alignment,  this will be easier
than
| rushing through SI or HI in hurried steps and will make the horse learn
the
| exercise before increasing amplitude or speed.  You can walk for a couple
of
| weeks before trotting, mainly to get all your _hit together. :)

I rode a few HPs on a first level horse once (heh).  It felt like we entered
a vat of molasses or suddenly gong slo-mo as we were HPing.  Neither the
horse nor I ever did a HP but I can follow aiding directions and I was
riding the most obedient horse on the planet.  I'd score it a 3 or 4.  ; )

Thanks for the explanations that even a naif can understand.  : )

sharon