using epoxy with formica

using epoxy with formica

Post by pete » Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:37:17


Hi all,
I am just about to bond some formica (plastic laminate) to plywood
using epoxy. Am I right in assuming that because the surfaces are flat
and smooth,  I won't need to add microfibres or  other fillers? I
anticipate coating both surfaces and I intend pressing the surfaces
together under a veneer press.

I'd appreceate any input on this as I have never used epoxy like this
before, nor bonded formica using epoxy.

On similar point, someone mentioned to me that formica had a grain in
its construction; if this is correct, does it have an effect on the
way it pulls? I ask because normally when pressing veneers, they
should be cross grained at 90 degrees to the veneers below.

Thanks

Pete

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by Tim » Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:31:50


Quote:
> Hi all,
> I am just about to bond some formica (plastic laminate) to plywood
> using epoxy. Am I right in assuming that because the surfaces are flat
> and smooth,  I won't need to add microfibres or  other fillers? I
> anticipate coating both surfaces and I intend pressing the surfaces
> together under a veneer press.

> I'd appreceate any input on this as I have never used epoxy like this
> before, nor bonded formica using epoxy.

Neither have I
Quote:

> On similar point, someone mentioned to me that formica had a grain in
> its construction; if this is correct, does it have an effect on the
> way it pulls? I ask because normally when pressing veneers, they
> should be cross grained at 90 degrees to the veneers below.

Formica is basically papers pressed together and ***d with resin, so
there is no grain as such since the fibres are pulped and run in all
directions. A bit like MDF fibres. What appears to be grain on the reverse
is the marks of the abrasives used to finish the back for keying adhesives.

Tim W

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by Mungo Bulg » Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:09:38

I was just reading the user's guide for West System and they have four
descriptive categories for epoxy and its uses. Syrup, ketchup,
mayonnaise and peanut butter. They recommend wetting out laminations
with syrup and then spreading ketchup (with a notched trowel) on one
or both pieces. So, yes, you should use a filler, or at least follow
the manufactures (epoxy) recommendations.
http://www.formica.co.uk/index.cfm?Fuseaction=display&ContentID=82

As for grain, I've never hear that it had one, in the same sense that
wood has a grain. I presume it has a grain, in the same sense that
roller processed plastics have a grain, but just like other plastics,
it doesn't have a lateral bias with respect to expansion and
contraction. Way back when I was young, I remember the surface
material and the substrate had different coefficients of linear
expansion which would cause cupping or dishing of un-laminated
material. However, the same precautions as with any veneering on solid
wood, the opposite surface needs to also be laminated to prevent
warping.

Shawn


| Hi all,
| I am just about to bond some formica (plastic laminate) to plywood
| using epoxy. Am I right in assuming that because the surfaces are
flat
| and smooth,  I won't need to add microfibres or  other fillers? I
| anticipate coating both surfaces and I intend pressing the surfaces
| together under a veneer press.
|
| I'd appreceate any input on this as I have never used epoxy like
this
| before, nor bonded formica using epoxy.
|
| On similar point, someone mentioned to me that formica had a grain
in
| its construction; if this is correct, does it have an effect on the
| way it pulls? I ask because normally when pressing veneers, they
| should be cross grained at 90 degrees to the veneers below.
|
| Thanks
|
| Pete

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by Mungo Bulg » Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:49:21

I'm wrong... I took my own asvice, and read the manufacturer
information. Guess what, Formica does have a grain, just like real
wood.
"Laminates expand and contract twice as much in their cross-grain
direction as they do in their grain (parallel with the sanding lines)
direction. Always align the sanding lines of the front and back
laminates in the same direction and, wherever possible, align the
grain direction of the laminate with the longest panel dimension. It
is also advisable to align the grain and cross-grain directions of the
laminates with that of the substrate."
http://images.formica.com/assets/pdfs/5 PanelWarpBrief.pdf
COOL...

Shawn


|I was just reading the user's guide for West System and they have
four
| descriptive categories for epoxy and its uses. Syrup, ketchup,
| mayonnaise and peanut butter. They recommend wetting out laminations
| with syrup and then spreading ketchup (with a notched trowel) on one
| or both pieces. So, yes, you should use a filler, or at least follow
| the manufactures (epoxy) recommendations.
| http://www.formica.co.uk/index.cfm?Fuseaction=display&ContentID=82
|
| As for grain, I've never hear that it had one, in the same sense
that
<<<<<<< wrong >>>>>>>|
| Shawn
--- snip ---

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by Lew Hodget » Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:33:16

Quote:

> Hi all,
> I am just about to bond some formica (plastic laminate) to plywood
> using epoxy.

Why reinvent the wheeel?

Why not just use the standard contact cement designed specifically to
bond laminate?

Lew

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by Mungo Bulg » Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:00:10

Obviously you haven't read the manufacturers information either. You
are in good company.
http://images.formica.com/assets/pdfs/5%20StressCracktechBrf.pdf
"Basically, the stronger and more rigid the bond, the less are the
chances for stress cracking. Contact adhesives, by their nature, are
elastomeric and, therefore, transfer less of the stress to the
substrate. Assemblies made with contact adhesives, therefore, are less
crack resistant than those fabricated with rigid or semi-rigid
adhesives."
Pete, you may also be interested in the other note which is included
in all the other info:

"Plywood substrates should be avoided, whenever possible, for use with
Formica brand
laminate, and should never be used as a substrate for ColorCore
surfacing material.
Because of its cross-ply construction, plywood expands and shrinks
less than either of
these laminate grades. This results in greater stress built up within
the laminate, and
thereby increases the chance of stress cracking."

Shawn


| > Hi all,
| > I am just about to bond some formica (plastic laminate) to plywood
| > using epoxy.
|
| Why reinvent the wheeel?
|
| Why not just use the standard contact cement designed specifically
to
| bond laminate?
|
| Lew

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by pete » Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:52:41

Thanks guys,

all very helpful, and I suppose I should have just gone and had a look
at the formica site myself.

Damn shame about the plywood recommendations; I'm laminating a
bulkhead for the heads and I wanted a smooth light cleanable finish as
there is not much light in that area. Still, I'm going to take a
chance on that.

As for contact adhesive, I stopped using that stuff about twenty years
ago because it is slow and dirty to use, and doesn't bond as well as
PVA glues anyway. PVA would not be any use in this situation .

Interesting about the grain, I never knew about that and I have been
using the stuff for years

Thanks again

pete

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by Mungo Bulg » Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:08:41

Put this in your veneer press:
Plywood substrate, wet out with epoxy, snapshots of friends and
family, old newspaper clippings, etc. 6 oz fibreglass cloth, wet out
with WEST SYSTEM 105 Resin and 207 Special Coating Hardener, cover
with a sheet of Formica sprayed with mould release, When it cures, you
will have a montage that is significant, and the texture of Formica
all on a stable substrate. Don't use too much pressure, (<10 psi)
Just a thought.


| Thanks guys,
|
| all very helpful, and I suppose I should have just gone and had a
look
| at the formica site myself.
|
| Damn shame about the plywood recommendations; I'm laminating a
| bulkhead for the heads and I wanted a smooth light cleanable finish
as
| there is not much light in that area. Still, I'm going to take a
| chance on that.
|
| As for contact adhesive, I stopped using that stuff about twenty
years
| ago because it is slow and dirty to use, and doesn't bond as well as
| PVA glues anyway. PVA would not be any use in this situation .
|
| Interesting about the grain, I never knew about that and I have been
| using the stuff for years
|
| Thanks again
|
| pete

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by pete » Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:26:35

How interesting, I'm certainly going to give that a tryout

Pete



Quote:
>Put this in your veneer press:
>Plywood substrate, wet out with epoxy, snapshots of friends and
>family, old newspaper clippings, etc. 6 oz fibreglass cloth, wet out
>with WEST SYSTEM 105 Resin and 207 Special Coating Hardener, cover
>with a sheet of Formica sprayed with mould release, When it cures, you
>will have a montage that is significant, and the texture of Formica
>all on a stable substrate. Don't use too much pressure, (<10 psi)
>Just a thought.



>| Thanks guys,
>|
>| all very helpful, and I suppose I should have just gone and had a
>look
>| at the formica site myself.
>|
>| Damn shame about the plywood recommendations; I'm laminating a
>| bulkhead for the heads and I wanted a smooth light cleanable finish
>as
>| there is not much light in that area. Still, I'm going to take a
>| chance on that.
>|
>| As for contact adhesive, I stopped using that stuff about twenty
>years
>| ago because it is slow and dirty to use, and doesn't bond as well as
>| PVA glues anyway. PVA would not be any use in this situation .
>|
>| Interesting about the grain, I never knew about that and I have been
>| using the stuff for years
>|
>| Thanks again
>|
>| pete

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by Lew Hodget » Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:52:59

Quote:

>Put this in your veneer press:
>Plywood substrate, wet out with epoxy, snapshots of friends and
>family, old newspaper clippings, etc. 6 oz fibreglass cloth, wet out
>with WEST SYSTEM 105 Resin and 207 Special Coating Hardener, cover
>with a sheet of Formica sprayed with mould release, When it cures, you
>will have a montage that is significant, and the texture of Formica
>all on a stable substrate. Don't use too much pressure, (<10 psi)
>Just a thought.

SFWIW, my head has glass laminated over plywood with epoxy, then shot
with high build primer followed by 2 part LP.

Clean up is with a sponge.

Depending on the  glass, you may or may not have to fair out the glass
before shooting HBP.

Lew

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by pete » Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:08:35

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:52:59 GMT, Lew Hodgett

Quote:


>>Put this in your veneer press:
>>Plywood substrate, wet out with epoxy, snapshots of friends and
>>family, old newspaper clippings, etc. 6 oz fibreglass cloth, wet out
>>with WEST SYSTEM 105 Resin and 207 Special Coating Hardener, cover
>>with a sheet of Formica sprayed with mould release, When it cures, you
>>will have a montage that is significant, and the texture of Formica
>>all on a stable substrate. Don't use too much pressure, (<10 psi)
>>Just a thought.

>SFWIW, my head has glass laminated over plywood with epoxy, then shot
>with high build primer followed by 2 part LP.

>Clean up is with a sponge.

>Depending on the  glass, you may or may not have to fair out the glass
>before shooting HBP.

>Lew

Yes I did consider that, but I wanted a quick fix, and I wasn't
confident in my ability to produce a finish I would be happy with.

Thanks,

Pete

 
 
 

using epoxy with formica

Post by Dan » Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:02:41

Quote:

> "Plywood substrates should be avoided, whenever possible, for use with
> Formica brand
> laminate,

Huh? From the Formica site it says"

Plywood
? Excellent substrate when from straight grained, low density hardwood
or softwood with surfaces free from knots.
? When bonded with waterproof adhesives (bond Class 3 of EN 314-2) the
composite boards suit applications subject to high humidity and frequent
wetting.
? Available in flame-retardant grades to produce composite panels that
conform to fire performance requirements of the Building Regulations.

What am I missing here?
There is a Laminate counter top on my 1977 sailboat that has been open
to the atmosphere for 10 years and the bond hasn't broke yet.

Quote:
> http://www.formica.co.uk//index.cfm?Fuseaction=display&ContentID=81